| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3232 Registered: 3-2004  |
I know you come here and read what is said, so I thought I would address this directly to you. Others can add to it as they want. I am really disappointed that you came in deception. I do not know how much deception, but that story of your daughter wanting to go to another church, non SDA, could have been part of it. I DO NOT KNOW OR PRESUME TO KNOW. This just shows me, something I did not know until I left the SDA church, and that is that the SDA church uses deception and thinks nothing of it because it fills their needs(like Revelation Seminars/stop smoking not advertised as being done by the Seventh day Adventist church). I am saddened that you felt you had to be deceptive. Many of us suspected that, but we treated you nicely. I guess, from what I see you do, that deception is good as long as it meets your needs. That is sad. One question, will you post on your Minneapolis web site the deception you used to post on FAF and to get your information. You did not have to write on FAF to copy anything. You could have copied and pasted anything. I do continue to pray for you and the SDA church. We both see the problems in it. Diana | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 155 Registered: 2-2003 |
Diana, What is his website? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3235 Registered: 3-2004 |
It is called Minneapolis 2008. There was a link here, that has now been taken out. I looked for it with a search engine, but did not find it. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5183 Registered: 12-2003  |
Diana, that thread has been moved to the theology section. The link is www.Minneapolis2008.org Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3237 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Colleen. I cannot get on the theology section. So if I sounded accusatory, I apologize. Diana | ||
| Richardtinker Board Administrator Username: Richardtinker Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-1999  |
To view and/or post in the theology section you must log in by going here: Forum Home Page and click on the Theology section. Then fill in your username and password. When you click on "Last Day" at the bottom of the screen you will see all the new posts, including those in the Theology section. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3238 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Richard, I am not a theologian/teacher/debater that can discuss all those issues, so I never went on there. So thanks for telling us how to get on there to just read everything. Diana | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2004 |
Gasp! And he seemed like such a nice guy. Oh well, one less Christmas card to send out next year. Typical fringe Adventist behavior. Sneaky and attacking. I stopped followed this guy back when he wouldn't answer the simple questions. The conversation got rather involved as I recall. Did he misrepresent himself? Lie? Isn't "thou shalt not lie" one of the Ten Commandments along with that sabbath one? So what the dickens is in Minneapolis in 2008? And wasn't Minneapolis the place where the Seventh-day Adventist general conference tarred and feathered Jones and Waggoner for preaching that (gasp) grace stuff? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5185 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yesófrom what I read on the site, it's a conference memorializing that (in)famous 1888 meeting and for trying to bring grace back into Adventism, etc etc. I find it a bit vague, but certainly that original meeting is in view. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 360 Registered: 6-2006  |
Walk on water, (Guessing you took that name because you think you can?) You take little bits and pieces from our conversations to label as "attacks", and yet I don't see you listing anything that our dear Ramone wrote to you. Why wouldn't you include his five questions? He's a former Adventist, and that's what he "is saying" as well. What are you afraid of? It's also disappointing that you wouldn't add all the welcomes and kind words we extended to you as we said those things too. The Bible is very clear about being open and not hiding things. (2 cor. 4:2) Obviously you missed that. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. And I agree with Cforrester regarding lying. If you're going to keep the 10 commandments, then you need to keep all of them. What you've posted is nothing new, and won't make a difference among true believers. You've just made one heck of a nasty impression to a whole mass of people in this forum, as well as those who are lurking. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1657 Registered: 10-2004  |
Regarding the 1888 stuff, let's not forget that neither Jones and Waggoner nor these current folks are preaching the true gospel of grace. In reality, it's just the same old SDA false gospel of grace plus works (keeping the Law), with words like "faith" thrown in there but re-defined as "works" (same as was always done in Adventism). Here is one quote from E.J. Waggoner from 1889:
Jeremy | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 291 Registered: 8-2006 |
Right, Jeremy. The New Covenant as described by Waggoner and Jones was God writing His law (meaning the 10 commandments) on our hearts and enabling us to keep His law. It's still salvation by keeping the Law. The cleansing of the sanctuary was defined by Jones as our souls being the sanctuary and that we must cooperate with Jesus in casting out every sin from our lives, and then the "sanctuary would be cleansed". In other words, sinless flesh - perfectionism. And all this...by "faith". Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3242 Registered: 3-2004 |
It just occurred to me that when some one, a journalist, says something negative about something, a movie, everyone goes to see it to see if that journalist is correct. The ones who go to see the movie quite frequently disagree with the journalist. So let's look at this Minneapolis web site with a positive look. It will make people want to come here to see if we are as bad as the man says we are and the lurkers will find out what we are really like. He is driving people to us. That is how I sse this situation. Whatever happens, God is in charge and His will, will be done. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5188 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, thank you. You are absolutely right. Just today I was trying to explain to an acquaintance from church who called me what "faith" means to an Adventist. My friend lives near three Romanian Adventist families, and they are all "so nice", bringing her bread, food, presents at Christmas, walking with her, etc. (I explained she was being evangelized.) But, she said, when she prays with them, sometimes it feels as if her words fall on the floor. She said she feels compelled and fascinatedóshe used the word mesmerizedówhen she is with them, but when she leaves, she has a feeling that something is dreadfully wrong. I tried to explain what the Waggoner quote is saying: to an Adventist, "the just shall live by faith" or "to every one that believeth" means "the Holy Spirit in my mind gives me the will power and mental strength to choose to keep the law". She was a bit confused because she believes that when a person is saved, their is a change in behavior. ' I concurred, but I explained that for an Adventist, the idea of the "new birth" is a mystery, and they do not believe they have a spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is mysterious (and a bit frightening), and Adventists understand "belief" and "faith" as the ability to do good after believing the information about Jesus. You're right to point out the reality of that 1888 movement, Jeremy. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 637 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen thanks for the link to his page. I don't read every post here, most but not all,  and was surprised when I went and l looked at his web site. SAD,  , he turns out to be different from what he presented here. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 310 Registered: 9-2006  |
When Wow was on here I told him ìSir, I perceive that you are in the root of bitternessî I meant that and I still mean it, while he was here I was reminded of a scripture (2 Tim 3:8 KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. (Heb 12:15 KJV) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root (origin) of bitterness (resentment) (sourness) springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Words in brackets added for clarity. River | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1525 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think his site proves exactly what is said about adventism here...it is deceptive. He/they have taken snippits of conversations, leaving out the full context, using only the most negative of remarks and completely leaving out the many wonderful and supportive things said here. If we did that to 'their' forum, they would immediately hold it up as unfair and intentionally deceptive and misleading. And that is what their site is. They're using OUR forum (and though Colleen and Richard 'administer' it...or however the legalities are handled!), we all invest our hearts, souls and personal lives here. We come here for a support group the way recovering alcoholics go to an AA meeting. People come here in pain, loss, confusion and for support. To take people who have discovered betrayal from their childhood (many of you), or through the seduction of false teachings (some of you), or because we love/loved someone in adventism and sought to understand the conflicts (another few of us) ... WHO is bearing one another's burdens? Who is really showing the love of Christ ... is it by their ability to kick people who have held our hands as we walked through some of the scariest and sometimes most insecure times in our lives, or the people who held our hands and told us we could trust God to teach us without a 'prophet'? I found the tactics WOW used very typical of all my experiences with B ... not answering the questions that he didn't want to answer, and then not hearing the answers to his questions that were respectfully and completely answered....I can only assume because he didn't like the answers. I have more respect for honest pagans than dishonest 'Christians'. At least I know what I'm dealing with and don't have to watch my back. I personally admire Colleen (and her typically 'silent' partner, Richard). I know the benefit from Colleen's encouragement and integrity behind the scenes of this public forum. I do not know how I would have survived these last months had she not been there for me, reading LLLLLLLLOOOOONNNNNNNGGGG, painful emails and responding to each of them ... even giving me her phone number and talking to me at length on the worst night of my life. The true depth and character Colleen has does not begin to show compared to what I've seen outside the 'walls' of this forum. We are all truly blessed to 'know' such a wonderful person. It seems like a personal attack to read how her words were selectively edited and put in a format to sound overly negative and one-sided. Their 'research' lacks integrity, honesty and full disclosure. It is nothing related to a balanced representation of the truth of our friends. Maybe its an SDA thing, because my ex is doing the same thing to me in our legal battle over our son. They think the adventist church is under attack? It sounded to me like former adventists are under attack. At least we don't 'typically' attack individuals, but the institution. Their attacks were certainly individual. Since I know you'll never hear it from them, to those who were violated to have your own words maligned and misrepresented, I'm sorry you've experienced such an assault. You TYPICALLY find friends here... . | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 313 Registered: 9-2006 |
Melissa, Thank you for that well written testimony, it reminded me of another time in my own life, when the Lord reached down for me, I had forgotten how to live and I remember how another person took my thousands of long phone callís and personal visits, who guarded over me night and day, prayed for me so many hours, just dropping what she was doing, if her food burned, it burned, if her cloths went un ironed, they stayed wrinkled, night and day as I struggled with coming out of a world of alcoholism and drugs. I have looked back in amazement many times at this person who ministered to me with such patience and grace. I donít think I would have been able to get through, but God had someone there to get me through. Yes God has a people, thank you Jesus, and a people that is willing to pour out their lives for Christ to minister to the likes of me. I stand in awe and amazement even these many years later. Oh, that I would be able to pattern my life after people such as this. We have people such as Dale who put in the hours, days and years, to minister to Adventist and they donít even know or realize it, he could have just kept the knowledge to himself and walked away. Thank God he did not. God makes his ministers a flaming fire that does not go out with every wind of adversity and I do not believe he is pleased with attacks on them and one needs to be very careful of this. River | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, True that. But what was always wild to me was that even modern Sadventists will criticize J&W and the "leaven" that they were introducing into the church. They mean both the grace orientation and the "panthiesm" aspect from Waggonner. Yet relative to the legalism they had been stressing (prompting EGW's famous quote "We've preached law, law, law until we're as dry as the hills of Gabora...") it was a refreshing influence. I will say this: when I came back to Christ via reading the Bible, and back to Adventism due to cultural upbringing, it was Jones, Waggonner, and A.G. Daniels - and yes, even EGW's endorsement of their message - that helped to open my eyes that there was a problem with the theological framework. Jack Sequiera continued my education and I finally (gasp again) graduated to just studying the Bible having irrefutably seen that there was a huge gap between the dribble I had been brought up on and the fine gold found in the Scriptures. As a side note: It was the 1888 study committee conferences that opened my eyes to the problems in the "1888 message". They kept trying to marry the message of grace with the heresy of the Adventist sanctuary message and arrived at a dualistic doctrine that was like hitting both the accelerator and brake pedals at the same time. "Praise God I'm freely saved by His grace!" "Yes, now you have to be perfect because you're living in the antitypical Day of Atonement." (Bah!) | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 541 Registered: 7-2000 |
Everyone who is posting on this thread should be aware that WOW is reposting some of the posts with answers to them over on his site. WOW lives in his own little, revisionist SDA world. He has made up his own mind that SDA doctrine and history are only the way he tells it. That got him into trouble over on the Christianity forums as he would make an assertion, and then one of us formers would show with direct quotes from church leaders or EGW that he was wrong. Being shown that he was wrong didn't change his mind though as he would be posting the same assertion again and again. Eventually he was banned for it. A good example of this are the quotes of mine that he has included as 'attacks'. If he really knew his SDA books, he could find in the '27 Fundamentals' under the nature of inspiration, the assertion that the 'words are not important, only the thoughts'. He could also go over to the official EGW website and find his prophet saying that 'God as an author is not represented in the Bible'. And yet, when I restate these positions in a post it's an attack. So, it's best to just let him live in his own odd world. |
