| Author | Message | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 85 Registered: 8-2006 |
My second church of the day was a Foursquare Gospel Church. In case you were like me and really couldn't say what the name stands for, I'll give you that to file away as denominational trivia. It stands for Jesus as Savior; Jesus as the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit; Jesus as Healer; and Jesus as Coming King. This was another hugely friendly church. The person who greeted me at the door took me to another woman who had an obvious gift of hospitality. She took me to meet the pastor, insisted I sit with her and a Downs Syndrome woman she brings to church and generally gave me information about the church and introduced me to others. And then she invited me to Thanksgiving dinner since I'm alone in town! This church evidently takes a different approach to community involvement. Unbeknownst to me there had been a city parade on Saturday, evidently a Christmas one and the church had a float in the parade (which had actually won a couple of prizes). They seem to be attempting to become high profile by loving people and establishing relationships from that. A large proportion of the congregation were wearing tee-shirts saying "Life Loves (the name of the city)" "Life" is the name of the church. They had been promoting a free concert for the city as a way of saying thank you to the community and it had been held the previous night. Then today the guest artist and her band had the church service except for a few words from the pastor. Now I have never heard of Jami Smith but she and her group are definitely worshippers so it was another blessed program. This is another large church. It's very wide--I counted walking out and there are 47 chairs in each row. Those I talked with didn't know how many people attend in the two services. I gather this is one church where membership may not count as much. The welcome packet from there included a copy of the Foursquare monthly magazine. It's really a slick looking publication: full color, good articles. I haven't seen the Review for a few years but unless it's changed, it's not nearly as flashy as this was. So today I was Pentecostal. I'm not real sure of the differences between AOG and Foursquare when it comes down to practicalities. It does look like the Foursquare is more hierarchal because I read in the welcome packet that the churches are owned by the denomination. AOG is much more congregational from the ones I have known with the local body owning the church and making their own determinations. No food if my welcome packet this time, though. Oh, I forgot to mention that the first church had food and juice in the hospitality room and then sent me home with a CD of their music and a jar of preserves with the church label saying "A sweet reminder of your visit." Next week will be my week for the Lutheran Church. I'm not sure how much it will be affected by the holiday weekend. One thing about living in the midwest is that it seems everybody has always lived here, many for generations, so there may be few actually leaving town. Aliza | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3055 Registered: 3-2004  |
Being with my son in Little Rock, we went to church at the base church. The preacher this morning was a Southern Baptist. He sermon was about the importance of being ready for Jesus. He used Mark 13:1-8 and did not jump all over the Bible. His three major points were 1-Jesus gave a clear vision of the future, 2-His coming has signs of fulfillment of prophecy, and 3-Jesus gave us a challenge in "watch out, that no one deceive you". It was all from the Bible. The music was all Christ centered. When we entered the church and found our seats, we started singing. I got tears in my eyes, the song was "soon and very soon". I am glad my son, DIL and grandson have this church to attend. When we got out and were getting into the car, my grandson, said he like going to church. I told him I like to go to church also and that I loved Jesus and he said he loved Jesus also. He is 3 years old. This is my church experience today. God has been good and so awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2302 Registered: 3-2005 |
Aliza, Thanks for the interesting updates. I have been following the descriptions carefully, but for some reason, I haven't seen where you have found a church that teaches the Bible verse by verse and whole chapters of the Bible at a time. I thought it was a real sign of this age when you went to a Bible study to study instead a Max Lucado book rather than the Bible. This is similar to the Rick Warren Purpose Driven Life craze. The Pentecostal churches you are visiting seem to fit the stereotype they are known for and that is big on experience, but little on serious Bible study. Yes, they have good rock music and light shows with their overhead screens and theater type seating, but they seem to be light on scripture. I hope the Lutheran church in your area you are visiting next week is a conservative one. Most ELCA Lutheran churches are very liberal. I think you said that there were no PCA churches in your area, but are there other churches that are more in the Reformation stream of teaching rather than the Campbellites and Pentecostals? Stan | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 754 Registered: 7-2000 |
Aliza, what a great thing it is to have you sharing the reports of your journey. I'm sure it is helpful to someone lurking. God is faithful, and He is absolutely going to take you to your new church family. It sounds like you are refreshingly open in your seeking. That is such a great thing. I fear when we leave the SDA's we at first are continuing to carry that old SDA "we are the true church" mentality....only the new form is "I KNOW what church is supposed to be like thank you so much". I fear we can close the door on a blessing if we don't acknowledge that we HAVE NOT been in a place that was a "true church" and we, in fact, have a heck of alot to learn from these folks who we once viewed as being so very wrong. So many of us started out in our own journeys absolutely certain we would only be comfortable in a traditional service, or a contemporary worship service, and then been surprised to find that the Lord knew us better than we knew ourselves. That happened to my husband and I. What an experience it is to walk into a "different" type of service from that which you thought would be comfortable, and by the end of the service find yourself feeling truly at home for the first time. God is good! Blessings on your journey! And may I offer a suggestion? My experience is that it really is unrealistic to choose a church based on one visit. Certainly you can get a very good idea, a gut reaction, of whether or not this is the place for you. Hopefully you can get a picture of their doctrine too...which is certainly of primary importance. You are most certainly going to narrow your list way down by doing exactly what you have been doing. However, to really get a feel for the congregation itself, you will likely need to make more than one visit. I think you have already realized that with your return visit to the church that was having problems.... But some other folks, I fear, forget that. It can always be that the particular service one attends is not the "norm" for the church. For instance, if there is a guest speaker that day, certainly you don't get a picture of the norm. I guess I'm saying that to encourage some not to just give up and declare "there are no good churches in my area" based on a single visit to the churches. God is huge. He most definitely has more than one "true Christian" living in any given area. He most certainly has/does gather those folks together for a living body. That said, I'm still praying that when you walk into your new church home you will have, after all, that sense of "I've come home!" Just because it is a heck of alot of fun! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4972 Registered: 12-2003  |
Aliza, thank you for your updates! Your accounts are so interesting, and as Lydell said above, I'm sure they're helpful to many. I second Lydell's post. God will lead you to the church where He wants you. You likely need several visits before you know a church is home, and it's possible that it won't look like what you're used to! Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2004 |
I appreciate hearing your journey Aliza. I agree that sometimes it takes several visits before you know that a church is your "home". Sometimes you can know if the first 10 minutes if the church is not for you though  My spouse and I were floundering for about a year in one place we lived, trying to find a church home. It was a journey, but after a year we found a great church that just required a bit of a drive every week. In Adventism it was relatively easy - the only right church was the local SDA church. Depending on where you lived there may have been more than 1 choice, but the selection was manageable. After leaving Adventism it is like the floodgates of choices opened up. It is kinda like a person who just started eating meat seeing a menu at a restaurant. They no longer have to go straight to the one vegetarian dish, but can choose from the whole menu! | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 316 Registered: 4-2006  |
Diana, awesome!! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 639 Registered: 7-2004  |
We had a bad experience with our church yesterday, which I'm very distraught about. If anyone recalls, I posted about a week ago that I had sent the SS teacher an e-mail about tithing, since I strongly disagree with the stance taken by the course "Discovering God's Way of Handling Money." He wrote back to me and said he didn't have a problem with my perspective and to feel free to share it in class. So that's what I did yesterday in Sunday School. I was pretty strong about it and explained how OT tithing was not money, not everyone tithed, it wasn't specifically for the church but provided food for the poor, widows, orphans, Levites, and even the tithers share in it like a big potluck. I further stated that when people think they are tithing today, they really aren't but instead are trying to turn an Old Testament law into a New Testament principle and that is a man-made idea with no support in the Bible. Finally I explained I disagreed with the statement in the study that giving will get us material blessings from God. I told the story that was in the news a few years ago where some parents (I think Adventist)were prosecuted for allowing their son to starve to death, when they had a jar in their empty cupboards filled with several hundred dollars of tithe money that they wouldn't touch because it was God's. They planned to take it to church once they no longer had transportation problems. The people in SS class seemed very agreeable with me. Even the teacher said "I'm sure the pastor would agree with that, because he always emphasizes first fruits instead of tithe." Fast forward to the sermon. It was Stewardship Sunday, the day we're supposed to pledge what we will give the next year. Last year at this time we were told in the sermon there is no particular amount to give, it's completely between God and the individual. This year, the pastor first says tithing is an OT law that doesn't apply to the Christian. Then a couple sentences later he tells about how he and his wife started tithing several years ago (he stated 10%) and continue to do so. They have been very blessed. Then he challenged the congregation to try tithing for 3 months. He said if anyone discovers they can't pay their mortgage or put food on the table, they'll get a refund. He snuck the Law right back in there! I think he's trying hard to get higher pledges because they want to start a building program. But it was in stark contradiction to everything I'd just said in Sunday School (he wasn't in there). So Ric_b and I each sent an e-mail of protest and I included the link to www.nomoretithing.org. I told him that I wished I had a button on at church that had the red circle with the red slash for No Tithe - like can be seen on that weblink. I have no idea what his reply will be, but I did tell him everything I said in Sunday School. It was really surprising to me how very angry I felt that a church that is built on grace alone would even think to bring the Mosaic Law in. Regardless, we're not leaving. We won't hear this stuff more than once a year, and hopefully never again. | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2006 |
Diana, that's so fantastic that the base church is such a great one. I'm curious, though. Somewhere (probably incorrectly) I got the idea that different chaplains took turns. Do they have the same chaplain each week? | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2006 |
Raven, you need a ((hug)). I certainly can identify with the frustration after feeling things are going along well and then you're blindsided by a belief about which you feel strongly. Let's pray that your pastor takes to heart the e-mails the two of you sent out. The church I left before moving had never said anything about "tithe" until soon before I moved. Then the pastor did a thing so similar to what you're describing. 3 month money back guarantee. Aargh! The pastor already knew where I stood on tithing so I went home and wrote up a long e-mail as you did. But then I never felt a peace about sending it off. I'm not sure why. But I have to trust the Holy Spirit that was not for that pastor at that time. Aliza | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 90 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hi Stan, I was wondering when you would join us on this thread. <g> Yes, I certainly agree with you about finding a church that preaches verse by verse through the whole chapter. You're describing Calvary Chapel! Unfortunately, there is not one of those here either. In my years coming out of Adventism, I believe the first place I would have remained after searching two years in the wilderness getting reeducated about Christian churches in general, was an awesome, huge Calvary Chapel but after being ready to settle down, I had a geographic move and had to start all over and in that area (only an hour or so away) the Calvary Chapel wasn't particularly what I was looking for. As to the Lutheran church for next week, it's Missouri Synod. As discussed earlier in this thread, I really know little about them but feel very comfortable taking communion now that I understood from the Lutherans among us what it means. This is a downtown, historic looking Lutheran church that has three Sunday services: traditional, contemporary and blended. Because of my personal tastes, I'm choosing the contemporary one. They also run a church which I assume is ultra contemporary on the community college campus. On the record, I'm not a 5-point TULIP person. But I'm certainly way more to the Calvinist side than I ever was as SDA. But I'm not Arminian either, but somewhere along on the spectrum. There are just too many verses that can be taken to support either belief. Also, I don't know that I would do well with Covenant theology due to their belief in the Sabbath. My belief is more New Covenant theology, which I recognize is very difficult to find within a church body. Keep posting on this thread, Stan, because I believe it's helpful to all the lurkers to see what's involved with walking out of Adventism and finding where you belong. I appreciate that you've shared your journey and how God has moved you to various different types of churches as well. Aliza | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2006  |
Raven, our church just had the second sermon (in a series of three) on money and tithe. This week the pastor said that since last weeks sermon about 'tithing being old covenant' he has had more phone calls, emails, and conversations than ever since he has been a pastor. Interestingly enough, he says that people in general are telling him that this has awaken their 'spiritual system' insted of opening the checkbook, and doing a little math problem, then writing a check (like a robot) you really have to soul search to decide what to pay. It is really exciting to watch the church step out in faith like this. We came to this conclusion over a year ago but haven't said a word to our church. The spirit is on the move and we are snugging down our seatbelts preparing for what might happen next! | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 91 Registered: 8-2006 |
Timmy, that is SO awesome! If only every pastor was willing to approach Bible study in that way! But if you're in a denomination with lock-step beliefs or traditions, I'm thinking it would be very difficult. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 640 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for the support and comments, Aliza and Timmy. I can't imagine such a thing as Timmy described happening in a Lutheran church, but you never know. I admit I was torn on whether or not I should have written the e-mail to the pastor, especially with how upset I was - like maybe I should have calmed down first. I wondered if it was wrong to be angry about it. But Paul was angry and didn't mince words in Galatians; however he had apostolic authority and I don't. With the e-mail I sent earlier to the SS teacher, I had complete peace about that one and also with how the class went. I haven't had that same peace with the e-mail to the pastor, so maybe I did rush things a bit. That would be my nature at times... Probably I should have waited for others in the SS class to say something, though I don't know if they ever would. Most don't bother questioning anything. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1512 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yesterday was also our stewardship Sunday and I was thrilled to hear our pastor say that not only was tithing NOT a mandate for Christians, but he followed it up by saying he did not know how much any given individual should give. He did go through the tithing system in principle, but included yearly tithes and all the others and said if you really counted all the tithes in the OT law, it was more likely 23%, not simply 10%. He showed how one man's tithe was acceptable to God, but another's wasn't....dependent up on the heart of giving, not some legalistic approach. He said it was between each individual and God what he should give to the church. He said those with more time than money, should be giving more time than money as God allowed them...going along with giving isn't always a financial contribution. All in all a very balanced approach. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2303 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks again Aliza for posting this thread and taking the time to do the first hand research, as I don't think anyone else has been as careful to detail as you have been. Yes, you beat me to it, but I was going to suggest Calvary Chapel as being much better than the churches you describe above. Even though I am not Arminian in my salvation doctrine, I believe Calvary Chapels do have a good balance of excellent praise music with a good praise band, but Marti and I were exceedingly blessed by the Calvary Bible teaching done by Chuck Smith, and I believe Calvary Chapels are an excellent first step out of SDA as it was for us, and several others on this board. Several here are blessed by the weekly teachings by Mark Martin from the Calvary in Phoenix. It is true that I don't agree with several Calvary Chapel teachings, however, I would appeal that having the choices you described above with the likes of Church of Christ, Vineyard, AOG, it would be great if you had a Calvary Chapel in your area. I am glad you are going to a LCMS church next week. While I appreciate what Raven is saying about tithing, the same problem exists in the PCA where I go. Yesterday they even recited the Westminster Confession article on the fourth commandment. However, there was no sermon on the Sabbath, and there is no sense of either Tithe or Sabbath legalism. The congregation is so friendly. However, the themes of God's overwhelming sovereign grace, and the beautiful themes of the Holiness of God, the continuation of the Covenant promises of God, and a sense of the Holy Spirit's presence, so far outweigh any occ'l mention of tithing or possibly even Lord's Day keeping. And I am showing my age and musical background when I say I prefer hymns over praise music, and that is what we do. Another caution flag for folks to consider. It is true I have been out of SDA for 24 years, and when I first left, I had this overwhelming excitement that there were so many great churches to choose from. Well, as time went on, I found, like others have found, that some churches out there are not really that much different from SDA. Ruth Tucker, in her book on major cults. agreed that SDAs do belong in a book talking about different gospels, but, to her surprise, that when she actually visited several different SDA churches, she sensed a spirit of true worship and more Bible teaching than she found in some other popular churches, that would be praised here on this board. This is not a personal endorsement that I necessarily agree with Tucker, as she readily points out the cultic aspects of SDA in her book also. However, just because the label isn't SDA doesn't mean you won't find the same legalistic spirit in other churches, and you might find just as works-oriented gospel preached. But, about 80% of churches in American evangelicalism are really not teaaching the true gospel with any power with the cross of Christ and the warning of impending judgment as the center. Serious Bible teaching is being replaced with modern psychology, and entertainment. I agree that you have to visit many churches and go more than once, but once is enough for some of the churches mentioned above. Again, Aliza, thanks for solidifying my views about what unfortunately is a sad state of affairs in much of popular Christianity. I am praying your LCMS experience will be rich. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 638 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes the sermon was very frustrating. My response was over 2 pages single spaced. Fortunately the pastor and I already have a relationship where I can question what he says without creating a major rift. I am always afraid that I do it too often, but he has assured me that he values having someone who will speak up. And I do try to speak (or write) to him not about him. He also equated first fruits and tithes in the sermon and used them interchangeably. So I provided a brief Bible study of the difference. I did have a few rather bold statements in my letter. Such as a suggestion that if you start by acknowledging that in the NT church the Holy Spirit leads people in how much to give and then later challenge people to give a tithe aren't you ultimately suggesting that you don't trust the Holy Spirit to do His job. I also commented that I might support the church with tithes this coming year, setting a tithe from our strawberry and vegetable plants next to the donuts in the morning. Stan, your point about the variety in churches is well made. There are, unfortunately, churches that only require one visit to realize that this is not any improvement over the errors of Adventism. Legalism is not limited to Adventists. I was particularly concerned by churches where the sermon only used Scripture (if at all) as a springboard into a topic unrelated to the content and context of the verse in question. Really good churches may take a while to find, or may even be impossible to find in some areas. Although I am very satisfied in a denomination, I don't believe that denominational boundaries (and let's face it the Willow Creek association is every bit as much of a "denomination" as Baptists are) are what distinguish the really good churches from others. If the pastor doesn't personally know God's grace and have passion for God's Word, the name on the door doesn't matter. Stan, I think that the 80% figure is too high. But maybe we sorted out some of those churches from their websites before we even visited. I just made a list and I might have to eat those words. We visited almost 30 churches. Six of those were solid, faith-emphasizing, Bible-preaching churches. Almost 20% exactly. And that list included 4 different denominations. But to be fair, there were 3 more that were decent but simply left me hungering for more than they were offering. Nothing specific that I could criticize them for, but nothing to commend them for either. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4975 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rick, I'm sitting here laughing about your fruit and vegetable tithe sitting to the donuts next yeaer!!! I love it! I really applaud you and Raven for speaking up and for writing to your pastor. I believe you are the one who said once that we as former Adventists have had to learn specific Biblical teachings that many people in the larger body of Christ need to knowóand we need to teach them. They really don't know that they're misguided because they've never had a reason to study for themselves. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2304 Registered: 3-2005 |
Rick, That 80% figure has been estimated from surveys that have been done regarding the importance of "Justification by Faith Alone" which is the heart of the gospel. Somewhere between 70-80% of pastors said the doctrine wasn't important, and a surprising number couldn't even articulate the basic doctrine of what the gospel is. These surveys have been reported by the White Horse Inn. They reiterated these statistics about the percentage of churhes today that were truly preaching Paul's gospel in Romans on the program last night. That program is really worth hearing online at www.whitehorseinn.org They said that now, more than ever there is pressure on Bible teaching churches to compromise, because those who are being faithful are losing members to the mega-churches with their entertainment and fluff-filled gospels. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 641 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well the 70% to 80% matches our experience in church hunting almost exactly. And we were trying to sort out churches that appeared to be interested in the Gospel. I thought that we became better at pre-screening churches from their websites as time went on, so it is quite disturbing that among churches that we expected to preach the Gospel of justification by faith alone we found over 2 out of 3 did not! But 20% to 30% is still a lot of churches to choose from in most areas. So people should not become too discouraged because they have run into some churches that don't teach the Gospel, there are many that still do! |
