| Author | Message | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2006 |
I'm officially a midwesterner now. While everything isn't necessarily put in order, I do have the luxury of taking my time since right now I'm jobless. Since we women process our thoughts with others rather than just internally, I thought perhaps my posting my visits to local churches might be helpful to those of you having the same dilemma of what to do once leaving Adventism. For a couple of weeks anyway, I figure I can double time it by attending two services each Sunday since a few churches have multiple meet times. I was in hope of hearing a clear direction from the Lord, but nothing like that happened so I can see I'm just going to have to do the work of actually attending various churches and then letting the Holy Spirit do some directing. If this thread isn't helpful I won't keep posting my journey. It's important to me to find a congregation as quickly as possible because I moved to a new area where I know no one and have no job either. So for now I'm isolated and that's not how I'm choosing to live for very long. Aliza | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2006 |
Aliza, I, for one, would be interested in your posting your journey. Thank you, Susan | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2006 |
My first church to visit was a non-denominational church generically named "First Christian Church". According to their website their three services are identical so I opted for the 8:00 am service, which was surprisingly full for that time of day. I was greeted warmly and learned from two people at the information area that their roots are from the Christian/Disciples of Christ tradition but years ago they pulled away due to the liberalism within that group. They made it clear they hold to the Word of God as their inerrant standard and Biblical teaching is important to them. The worship service was good. My greeters told me actually the first service is a bit more traditional during worship, but it was fine to me. The preaching was expository and I'll have to admit it's the first time I've heard a sermon on 2 Chronicles 26 and King Uzziah. Unfortunately, I didn't get to hear the senior pastor preach but one of the associates. You can learn a lot from the bulletin and the newsletters, websites, extra printed material. I really like that they have a lot of small groups. And most of them are doing expository Bible study: One each on Romans, Peter, Philippians, John, Psalms. Others were more topical. Another great facet is they are highly involved in service to the community. My hosts took the time to ask me my interests in order to suggest where I might enjoy becoming involved. I'm guessing that membership must be important because they told me about a meeting after the service called "Exploring Membership" but I didn't choose to stay for that. One thing I found a bit puzzling though was their tradition of weekly communion. I've seen communion done in many different ways but this was a first. The congregation stayed seated and you were served the bread and wine (grape juice) individually which you ate then and there and replaced the cup. It just seemed so perfunctory to me but I want to be cautious not to judge. Overall, a positive start on my journey. I would especially appreciate feedback from any of you familiar with those of the Stone/Campbell roots. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2006 |
I am not familiar with the Church of Christ and Campbell, so can't give you any feedback, but my husband is, having lived in Huntsville, Alabama for over half his life. He says Church of Christ is very active in Alabama. He remarked to me the other day that Adventism has nothing on the Church of Christ and legalism. He has no hesitation to call them a cult, and told me one of the church elders told him he could not greet my husband as his Christian brother because he did not belong to the true church, the one that is named the Church of Christ. While that's his assessment, and not my own, I thought I would relate to you what he said to me. Susan | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2006 |
My second church of the day was one listed as a "Bible Church" on websites and under non-denominational in the phone book. The reason I chose it is because one website listed it as "charismatic" although their phone back ad didn't give that indication. The church itself does not have a website unfortunately. So I wasn't quite sure what to expect. It's a smaller church with only one service. I was again greeted warmly and offered a welcome packet. Unfortunately the welcome packet doesn't give their doctrinal beliefs--something I'm always looking for. The worship service was absolutely awesome. It was more charismatic than the first service in some ways. However, not wild as it only had a piano and drums for accompaniement. But what was so great was that you could sense the joy in the congregation during this time of worshipping in singing. After that, I really had high hopes for this church. Again, it was an associate pastor as the senior pastor was out of time. Unfortunately, the preaching was not expository. Even though I could see he had notes, I found the sermon disjointed and way too long given that there didn't seem to be any clear direction to the teaching. I'm guessing this probably isn't the usual for this church as when it was time for the sermon I noted that many people had gotten out notepads and pens. However, this wasn't the type of sermon where you would have been able to write down many thoughts. This church has a Sunday night and Wednesday night service but no indication of small groups. They, too are active in the community. There was a comment made about 50 people being gone to a ministry event. I looked around and wondered were all these people fit. This church definitely looks like it should move into more services (80/20 rule and all that) but with such a long service I'm guessing it would be difficult. Too bad I can't put the worship service of the second church in with the teaching of the first one! <sigh> Since this area seems to be pretty traditional for the most part, I'm considering checking out Wednesday night services around town. I want to identify where God is at work in this area. Where are those who are passionate about Jesus and where it comes bubbling out of the four walls of the church? If there are any others out there checking out different churches, I welcome your posts here so we can learn from each other. Aliza | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2006 |
Susans, yes I'm aware of Church of Christ and agree with your husband's assessment. However, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) are far removed from that. They are hugely liberal. This church tries to be in the middle it seems. They're obviously involved with other denominations (something true Church of Christ wouldn't be). But thanks for the warning, because I'm looking out for the legalism as well. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2006 |
Aliza, ok, as I say, I'm not familiar with the church. The reason I posted what I did was because of the name Campbell that you referenced. My husband had mentioned Thomas Campbell as the root of the Church of Christ. I was surprised when he told me that they were an offshoot of an offshoot of the Presbyterian church.  I do know that the Disciples of Christ are a different denomination. I once worked with someone who was a member and found him to be a godly man. May God guide you and bless you in your search! Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2957 Registered: 3-2004  |
Aliza, When I decided not to be rebaptized in the SDA church I visited a number of churches. My problem was I did not know what to look for. All I knew was that I wanted the Bible and Jesus Christ as the core doctrine and I cringed when tithing was mentioned. But God knew what I needed and took me to the church I now attend. I am visiting other churches as I was feeling that God wanted something else for me. I think, now, that was just me because of things going on in my life. I still want to visit other churches and if God wants me to change He will let me know. He is always so awesome. Diana | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2006 |
Diana, I for one would like to hear what you're finding while you visit other churches. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2959 Registered: 3-2004 |
Aliza, I attend a Bible study at the local Baptist church and occasionally stay for the church service. The pastor is preaching a series of sermons from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew. It is all from the Bible and he does not hop all over the Bible with proof texts. The friends I have made there would like to keep me there, but I have told them, I will go where God tells me and so far all I do there is study the Bible with them. I wrote about the PCA church I visited a couple of weeks ago. That was another spirit filled sermon. So, yes, I will write as I visit other churches. Oh, the Baptist church asks for tithes. I told my Bible study leader I had studied tithing and what I found and he suggested I talk to the pastor. I have not done that yet. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 239 Registered: 4-2006  |
There is an article on wikipedia which might be a good starter to know more about "Churches of Christ": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ On a sidenote, I've begun translating the Essay by Russell Earl Kelly on tithing to Danish, so the good news can be spread more widely. http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/ Many do have another Gospel: Faith + Tithing = salvation. May the peace of God be with all of you! | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2006 |
This is a report on my second Sunday here as a Midwesterner. First I went to a non-denominational community church. Since their website didn't have a statement of beliefs, I went to the information desk and chatted with two women there and did end up with a sheet listing the doctrinal beliefs. One lady took me inside and pointed out where the restrooms were and the basic layout. At the end of the church service, the other woman I met asked me if I would wait so the pastor could meet me. She also gave me a welcome basket so now I have home-made cookies to eat while writing this. The beliefs of this church look solid. The preaching by the interim (former associate) pastor was expository and I obviously arrived in the middle of a series about prayer. The worship was uplifting. This church is on the cutting edge of technology and I liked that aspect. The bulletin said that last week they had 431 people attend. (2 services) An interesting aspect of this visit happened at the end when they do announcements and offering etc. There was a report from the elders about the search committee for a new pastor. It became obvious that they were dealing within the past 2 months with a senior pastor who was either asked to step down or did so before asked. As a vistor I don't know the details of it. But what I found very refreshing was that the elders told about being ministered to by the pastors from other churches in town. They met with a committee with the senior pastor of a very large Baptist church, large Four Square Church and the large Christian church I attended last week. To me, the fact that these other pastors came together to minister over the leaders of this hurting congregation spoke a lot about this small city. The fact they are facing this crisis doesn't make me run from them because as I heard their report I could sense the wisdom and prayer they are putting into coping and recasting their vision. They are also seeing a need to reach out to the members of the congregation who are in obvious shock and pain. (Makes me think of the Haggard church family--see that thread). So this church remains one to consider. This I believe is the first time where a pastor specifically wanted to personally greet me as a first time attendee. Speaks to their friendliness and the grace filled demeanor I saw throughout. Aliza | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2006 |
My second church was a much smaller one, the Vineyard Church. Since I had talked for a while at the end of the previous church service, I arrived just as worship started. They have parking lot attendants here to help keep things orderly and just give a friendly greeting--a nice touch. Since I was running late I didn't stop to talk much but really the foyer was so small you really couldn't do so very well either. I was quickly told where to find coffee and donuts and then I went inside. This little church was packed. As I stood at the back I was wondering if I'd find a seat. A man (who turned out to be the pastor) offered to find me a seat, which he did and led me to it. I was very glad to hear that they were holding a church meeting tonight to address going to two services. If a family of four or so had walked in when I did it would have been difficult. Vineyard worships are spiritually uplifting and I do enjoy Vineyard music. One neat thing was professional large banners at the front--one gave their vision and one their mission to this community. I find this valuable because over my years of going to check out various churches I've found that people often have a very hard time articulating exactly what the mission or vision is for their specific congregation in their specific town. This was week one on a series about healing and the topic for the first week was physical healing and he used the passage of the woman who touched Jesus' robe. He was informal but did well with handling various aspects such as God doesn't always choose to heal etc. While I can't clearly articulate all the reasons, I don't sense this is the place for me so this one is off the list. Maybe this week I'll attend the midweek service at one of the ones I've already attended. There's one more community church left. Then it's into denominational ones. The denominational ones left on my list for prayerful consideration: Lutheran--Missouri Synod; Assembly of God and Four Square. I'm definitely skittish about denominations, quite frankly, but I'm willing to go anyplace that the Holy Spirit calls me. Aliza | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 280 Registered: 6-2006  |
Aliza, I wish you well! I grew up and continue to worship at my little Lutheran church. It's Evangelical. I don't know a whole lot about Missouri Synod or Wisconsin Synod other than that they tend to be on the conservative side. Where ours has open communion to all believers, I understand that the other synods are strict about communion being restricted to members only. Not a judgement, just thought I'd relay that to you. Some Lutheran churches still are heavy on the liturgy, but many (like mine) change things around from week to week. (Ours does a combo of hymns and contemporary) Also, I've never been to a Lutheran church that didn't preach directly from the Bible. In other words, you won't hear Luther's name come up very often. I guess each Lutheran church is different! I hope where ever you end up, you'll find a new family in Christ! Blessings to you in your search, Leigh Anne | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks Leigh Anne. I've only been to one Lutheran service in my life and that was a very high church liturgical Easter service a few years ago. It definitely wasn't what I could get into. I've already figured out that Missouri Synod is supposed to have closed communion but this one seems to be pretty liberal about that. Here's what the website says: 1. Do I believe I am a sinner and am sorry for my sins? 2. Do I believe Jesus, by His death and resurrection, offers me forgiveness for all my sins? 3. Do I believe I receive the body and blood of Jesus in and with the bread and wine? (They are not merely symbolically present) 4. Do I truly turn from my sinful ways? You are more than welcome to join with us as we celebrate if you can answer "yes" to these four questions! Now, coming from Adventism I'm really perplexed by number 3. (And probably other streams of Protestantism would be perplexed as well.) I know several of you here attend Lutheran congregations. Perhaps someone can help me understand this. Since this takes the thread away from specifically Adventist issues, perhaps someone could e-mail me at Aliza.sojourner@gmail.com. If anyone has any specific advice on other denominations I would love to hear as well. Aliza | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 281 Registered: 6-2006 |
That's an Arminian belief that some Lutheran churches teach. Not all, though. What I think they're saying is that they believe that Jesus' actual blood and body are in the communion wine and wafer. (By the way, as far as I know most Lutheran churches offer real wine as well as grape juice) I know that the Catholic church adheres to that belief consistantly. Ours emphasizes that the communion wine and wafer are symbols. Don't know if all Evangelicals are that way. I don't believe in it, and I really don't know why it matters. The only other thing I wonder is, if they're asking if you believe that communion is a holy sacrament? (Like baptism) Definitely ask about it! Here's my e-mail if you have any other questions. I'm not an expert, but I certainly have resources!lanniebartlett@yahoo.com | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 606 Registered: 7-2004  |
Leigh Anne, I'm a little confused. How is #3, the real presence of Jesus in and with the bread and wine, an Arminian belief? And I can assure you, it is not what the Catholic church teaches. The Catholic church teaches transubstantiation, that the priest literally changes the bread and wine into Jesus' body and blood. It was my understanding that Lutherans (most if not all) uniquely believe the bread and wine are indeed more than symbols, but they do not believe the bread and wine is changed into Jesus' body and blood. Instead they believe Jesus' body and blood is received with the bread and wine, sometimes called consubstantiation, although Lutherans don't like that term but prefer the term "The Real Presence." Our LCMS church has the same questions Aliza posted about printed in the bulletin, and does not refuse communion to anyone but instead assumes they must have read the questions and affirmed them. While we personally believe the wine and bread are more than just symbols, we don't believe we are receiving Jesus' physical body and blood. Instead we think we are literally receiving Jesus' spiritual presence as a means of grace. Our pastor seemed to be ok with that. Anyway, I do disagree with closed communion and am pretty sure that whatever happens with communion will happen regardless of what a person understands or believes about it, as long as they are a believer in Jesus. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 284 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Raven, I've always understood that transubstantiation was under the Arminian canopy. I apologise if I was way off! My bad. (I'm definitely not a theology major) I have heard that some Lutheran churches teach it, but I at least know that my church doesn't. You're the perfect person to share that info with Aliza. Like I said, I'm not an expert. Our church is connected to the ELCA, however I believe that my pastor tends to lean towards a less liturgical service. My cousin is a pastor with the Evangelical Free Lutheran chuch. I asked him about his communion. He echoed what you said, that we recieve Christ's spiritual presence in the symbols of the bread and wine. Thanks, Leigh Anne | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 608 Registered: 7-2004  |
I can't comment on what your local pastor may teach. But the ELCA does teach the Lutheran doctrine of real presence, although perhaps not as strongly or plainly as the more conservative Lutheran synods. The ELCA website describes it this way: "In Holy Communion -- often called the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist -- those who come to the table receive in bread and wine the body and blood of their Lord. This gift is itself the real presence of God's forgiveness and mercy, nourishing believers in union with their Lord and with each other." http://www.elca.org/communication/brief.html#sacraments I know that ELCA churches are often less adament about the specific nature of the "real presence" than WELS and LCMS churches, and are often criticized for that position. In the Missouri Synod (LCMS) church we have a number of people who are really adament about a number of specific details regarding communion. I get tired of the discussion because we just aren't given that many details in Scripture about the nature of communion. Most arguments that I see or hear involve plenty of assumptions, and (too often), heated rhetoric. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2246 Registered: 3-2005 |
One of the greatest truths of the Reformed and Lutheran faith is that communion goes beyond just symbols. There is a spiritual presence of Christ associated with communion. John Calvin said that communion should be celebrated with real wine because it has a bitter sweet taste. The bittrness represents the crucifixion, and the sweet represents the resurrection. Jesus clearly gave us the example of taking communion with real wine, and I don't understand why the modern evangelical church is so insistent on using grape juice. At least there should be both offered incase someone is offended by wine. Stan |
