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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 556
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 5:54 am: |     |
Me, too, SusanS.
WalkOnWater, where are you? I made this thread for you. (>_<) |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 138
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 6:09 am: | |
Raven, You said, "But what about the tithe? As far as I remember, EGW is quite clear about our obligation to mandatory tithing, and that it's a monetary tithe, 10% of one's income period."
Just this week one of our pastors had a sermon on tithe. It was really enlightening hearing it from him because he just recently realized that a regulated and mandatory 10% tithe is not Biblical for a Gentile Christian. While he was studying for this series on money. He also points out how how stressful it is as a pastor to say such a thing, they like relying on that 10% income. After listening to this, I want to give 25%!!!
It is cool beyonds words how a church can hear the Holy Spirit and just go with it, without trying to make it work with preconceived ideas!
Just another one of those things that demonstrates how awesome Christ really is! I should no longer be surprised that Christ mission and purpose still suprises me!
He is AWESOME!
Oh, BTW- You can listen to/download it here as a podcast. http://www.westwinds.org/podcasting/
"A Capital Experience: November 12th 2006
Beyond Tithing" |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 638
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 7:34 am: | |
Timmy, definitely cool! Wish more churches would take the time to listen to the Holy Spirit and make sure what they're doing matches the Word instead of matches traditional concepts.
While we don't tithe, we've been okay with the Lutheran teaching that non-mandatory tithing the way most current Christians understand it can be a good principle. Not that I agree, but obviously if someone feels led to give 10%, it's not like it's wrong to give 10%. Tithe was never about money anyway.
However, our church recently started a Sunday School class using Crown Financial Ministry's "Discovering God's Way of Handling Money" and unfortunately no one is correcting anything the video teaches. This series teaches "God's Way" is 10% tithe on monetary income. And they teach it is the foundation for Giving. Last week I could no longer sit by idly, but didn't want to cause a disturbance in class - so I e-mailed the SS teacher the link I posted above on tithing. The last thing I would want is for people to become convinced from these lessons that tithing is obligatory - thinking it's a good principle is bad enough.
If there's one thing leaving the SDA church has taught me, is that I will no longer stay silent if blatant error is being taught. |
Mrsbrian3
Registered user
Username: Mrsbrian3
Post Number: 67
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:09 am: | |
The internet definitely, directly lead to our leaving the SDA church. Someone told us in church one Saturday that Tesa and Arthur, former classmates, had left the church and their letter to the church was on the internet. We did a search for their letter and were lead to this site. The rest is His-story!
Kim
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Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 305
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:49 am: | |
Raven, good. The Church really needs to know about the tithing issue. Many Christians are guilt loaded by this unbiblical teaching.
I've translated the essay on, http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com and sent it to one of my pastors and the Christians that I know of.
In Christ |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 145
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 9:14 am: | |
Isn't this the thread that was started because we were accused of taking Mrs. White out of context???
Ramone and Susan spent a great deal of time investigating the context of a few issues and Bill pointed out that the leaders of the denomination (quotes provided) seem to agree with the context we used. I have not seen or heard from the accuser.
What happened? |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 146
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 9:25 am: | |
"Merely saying it was taken out of context and not showing how then may look as if we are afraid to actually investigate the matter deeper, for fear of the wider context actually turning out agree with what the one quote says." -Ramone
Ramone, I think your point has been proven. |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 160
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 9:52 am: | |
Yes, Timmy, and I was wondering should we discuss the other quotes? I am certainly willing to do so, even when what I read gives me headaches 
Susan |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 161
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:30 am: | |
Here is an interesting letter I found on the SDA defend site (which I have discovered is Vance Ferrel, of Pilgrim's Rest) from Ellen answering questions on who gives her the information in her testimonies and the danger and folly of speculating or trying to divide what God tells her from what are her own words. Read for yourself the entire letter. I think "the context" speaks for itself!
Sanitarium, Cal., Jan. 15, 1906.
Dear Brother Amadon:--
I have received your letter, I will send you copies of things taken from my diaries. These articles contain presentations and instructions given me, point by point. For instance, the evening after the Sabbath I retired, and rested well without ache or pain until half past ten. But I was unable to sleep. I had received instruction, and I seldom lie in bed after such instruction comes. There was a company assembled in Battle Creek, and instruction was given by One in our midst that I was to repeat and repeat with pen and voice. I left my bed, and wrote for five hours as fast as my pen could trace the lines. Then, I rested on the bed for an hour, and slept part of the time.
I placed the matter in the hands of my copyist, and on Monday morning it was waiting for me, placed inside my office door on Sunday evening. There were four articles ready for me to read over, and make any corrections needed. The matter is now prepared, and some of it will go in the mail today.
This is the line of work that I am carrying on. I do most of my writing while the other members of the family are asleep, I build my fire, and then write uninterruptedly, sometimes for hours. I write while others are asleep.
Who, then, has told Sister White?--A messenger that is appointed.
If Elder Daniells is in Battle Creek, please place in his hands the manuscripts I send you. I have my work to do, to meet the misconceptions of those who suppose themselves able to say what is testimony from God and what is human productions.
If those who have done this work continue in this course, Satanic agencies will choose for them. At the Berrien Springs meeting, the richest blessing was proffered them. This blessing they could have had if they had let Christ help them, confessing their wicked obstinacy. But they refused to take the right course. The holy angels turned away, the evil angels have been holding sway over minds. Evil angels obtained the victory at that meeting. But there is no need for me to give the particulars of this.
If Brother Daniells is not in Battle Creek, please read to the church what I am sending you. I have many letters to write, and I can not add more to this now. There is just one thing the Lord calls for, and that is, for every man, minister, or physician, or lay member, to confess his own sins. Each one will have a hard battle to fight with his own perverse self. Those who have stood directly in the way of the people, having a clear realization of their perilous condition, will have an account to settle with God. Those who have helped souls to feel at liberty to specify what is of God in the Testimonies, and what are the uninspired words of Sister White, will find that they were helping the devil in his work of deception.
Ellen G. White.
From Spalding Magan Unpublished Mss. Pg. 465-466
So, in EGW's own words, it is a misconception for ANYONE to say which part of her writings are her own words, and which are from God. If you do, you are helping the devil in his work of deception, you are in a perilous state, and you will have an account to settle with God! Pretty strong words from the prophet!
Susan
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Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 148
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:43 pm: | |
Susan, That about sums it up. I think the issue at stake was whether Mrs. White placed her writings equal with the Bible. I would say there is no need to take it further. This has been proven by Mrs. Whites own words, in context, supported by conference leaders with their public statements, as well as a CLEAR presentation by many formers.
To claim that Mrs. White and the SDA church does not place their "Spirit of Prophecy" equal to or above the Bible appears to be an intentional diversion.
Saying that these quotes are 'out of context' is a cheap shot which is common in the denomination. I have seen it used over and over with no explaination. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 569
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 5:16 am: | |
Giving WalkOnWater the benefit of the doubt, I pray he's occupied more with the 5 questions thread. This one might take too much effort in analysis. Of course, if that is the case, continued comments in the same "challenge" vein ought not to be made. But I haven't read everything yet... got some catching up to do.
Whatever the case, this thread has been useful to us, I think, and should anyone bring up the "context" claim in the future, hopefully someone will remember this thread. I do hope someone can put what we've learned/are learning here into a small booklet or something. It ought to be published and distributed. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 318
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 6:10 am: | |
This is just my own observation, but sometimes I get the feeling that some SDA's put EGW equal with God himself (if you don't do what she says you're doomed) or, they put the church in God's place (If you leave here you're doomed - it's better to wander lost than to join "babylon"). How anyone could even consider discouraging a person from going to worship is a sin in itself.
My in-laws would flatly deny that, but then I want to know why I'm doomed if none of that's true?
The other thing I've noticed recently is this strange issue - Colleen was pointing out the SDA school of thought that says that God is forgiving, he would never destroy anyone, Jesus only loves and doesn't judge people, etc. But then EGW says in the IJ that if you're not completely perfect when you stand before Christ and his stack of books (without a mediator) then you're doomed.
Am I way off? It seems almost like EGW is taken more seriously than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
((It's frustrating as I'm anticipating spending Thanksgiving day with the president of "Messiah's Mansion" and his never-ending diarrhea of the mouth IJ sermon.))
Am I wrong? Does it all fit together to create mass confusion?
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Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 643
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 6:20 am: | |
LOL about your sentence in (( ))! Probably the most we'll hear on Thanksgiving Day is constant praises about the CHIP program and Adventist Frontier Missions. I wouldn't want to trade you! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4984
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 7:25 pm: | |
Sigh--and sigh again.
Oh, Leigh Anne and Sheryl, I just feel for you. On the one hand there's that holiday excitement, extended family together, great food...and on the other there's that dull discomfort in the pit of your stomach because there's just no point of resolution or mutual understanding. Not only is there no resolution, but there's barely-submerged censure on occasion.
Praying now for you both...
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 646
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 6:12 am: | |
Well I'm not sure about that great food idea. For instance, if we have pumpkin pie it will be without any noticeable spices, or (of course) milk products. I know better than taking a slice.
Thanksgiving dinner itself will likely mean a tolerable vegetarian casserole, so long as we get vege-meats and not gluten chunks for the protein element of the casserole. The homemade bread will be good. Although the options to spread on top of it leave something to be desired.
And here I thought that the dull discomfort in the pit of my stomach was from the strange foods.
We have carefully avoided being there on Sabbath morning up til now. But this visit it can not be avoided. We have no intention of attending their church and our absence will probably only make things more tense around the dinner table that afternoon. |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 170
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:45 am: | |
Will you just remain in their home while they are at church or go somewhere and re-join them for dinner? I'm curious to know since I'm facing that as well, and really don't want to attend church with them, but not sure which would be worse-to eat a meal after church, or just stay away till Saturday night?
Fortunately I will have a car. It's more difficult for those who will have no individual way to escape!
We will have a turkey but since my best friend's relatives are there, I don't know what else will be served. I haven't eaten fake meat in years, but hopefully things will be seasoned correctly. I can always go for the can of black pepper she keeps just for me.
Susan |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 319
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 9:22 am: | |
Colleen, thanks! I think it'll be okay. If he starts in I'll just round up the kids and go into another room.
One thing I am planning. I'll be visiting my sister's house first, and she just bought two huge Honey Baked Hams. I plan to fill up on that before I face the Nuteena casserole and the Chicken-like & Stuffing. YUCK!
Happy Thanksgiving to you and all my friends here!
Leigh Anne |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4991
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
Enjoy your ham, Leigh Anne!
Oh, RickóI should have inferred that your dinner would be vegan! My vegan relatives began, a few years ago, to bring their own food to eat on Thanksgiving even though we provided vegetarian (but not vegan) food. I remember the walnut-tofu loaf and the soy-mayonnaised potato salad and the sugar-free blueberry pie made with an oil crust appeared side-by-side with our mock turkey and real turkey...
I guess it has become fairly uncomfortable; they are visiting out-of-state relatives this year instead of being here.
Sigh again. At least, Susan, you have the black pepper to rely on...!
I AM looking forward to the turkey!
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 577
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:34 pm: | |
This Thanksgiving, perhaps we should be asking ourselves a question to guide us: W.W.E.D.?
"Mother wants some chicken!"
LOL Happy Thanksgiving. |
Randyg
Registered user
Username: Randyg
Post Number: 311
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:25 am: | |
To my dear American brothers and sisters,
I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving,
A couple of comments of interest....
A couple of years ago at a campmeeting in Nova Scotia, on the east coast of Canada, the main evening Speaker was reprimanded by one of the saints as he had spent part of the day fishing off the coast. As the camp is right on the ocean, he was seen packing a couple of nice fish back to camp.
She said Pastor, "how could you be bringing fish to camp knowing what we know".
His response was, "Jesus ate fish".
Without batting an eye she said, "but Jesus didn't have the Health Message".
-------------------------------------------------
I found this quote from Thurber quite insightful regarding many of our Adventist friends and relatives...
"Most people want to believe rather than know, to take for granted rather than find out"
This is the mindset I have seen, and it appears rather universal among people who are challenges regarding beliefs.
May your pumpkin pies be spicy,
Randy |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 644
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 7:51 am: | |
Susans, I'm just catching up on posts and saw your question about if we will remain in their home while they're at church or not. For one thing, we stayed in a hotel which simplified things a lot. Surprisingly, it didn't stand out for us not to go to church, because out of the whole large group only one sister and her family went to church. I'm not sure exactly what was up with that and I didn't ask.
Probably the most contentious part was the vegan versus vegetarian aspect. I feel bad for my mom, but gradually everyone has become more comfortable with bringing their own stuff to add to the meal so we're not stuck with gross stuff. It's really hard to know how to handle that right. I know it hurts my mom's feelings, but SDA or not, most of us siblings can't make ourselves eat the strange vegan things anymore that we don't eat any other time. That's not to say there weren't good things to eat, but we want plenty of real cheese for our haystacks (fresh cheese, not stuff that's been in the freezer for the last year or so). And we want our pumpkin pie to have dairy and spices, and can't forget the whipped cream. Sometimes I think there's a bigger dividing wall food-wise not only between SDA's and non-SDA's but also between individual SDA's, than there ever was between Jews and non-Jews. Isn't there a verse that Jesus removed the dividing wall?
How did the Messiah's Mansion discussions go, Leigh Anne? |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 175
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 8:10 am: | |
Hey Raven,
I'm just catching up with posts myself, as I just returned home late last night. I ended up taking my mom out to dinner on Friday night, returning at 10pm just in time for bed, and on Saturday morning the only thing asked was by my best friend's daughter, who wanted to know if she was going to see me before she left Sunday morning.
I think you are right about food being such a divider within SDA. I believe it's because eating is tied to salvation, whether it's recognized conciously or not. That may be the reason for the hurt feelings by your mom (although I, like many others, show love by feeding people!) that you don't like what she prepares.
It is difficult and not easy to figure out how not to offend. I was the only non-Adventist at the Thanksgiving table this year. Fortunately, my best friend made lots of wonderful things to eat! There was no cheese on anything though, and there were dairy free desserts to choose from. Thankfully there was no gross stuff to eat (my friend is a fabulous lacto-ovo cook!) except my favorite thing, the turkey dressing, was made with fake chicken slices, so I didn't eat that.
The worst part was the after dinner discussion of all things Adventist. I just excused myself from the table and went in to watch tv.
All in all, it was a good time, and her parents were very gracious to me. They have such good hearts and I'm sure they are all praying for me to return to the truth. One interesting thing though, was when my friend had forgotten to make a dish for dinner after church. They were all waiting to leave and she was frantically putting the dish together. I offered to do that for her so she could leave, but she said she absolutely could NOT leave me there preparing their Sabbath lunch while she went to church. She said she wouldn't feel right doing that. I know why, because of the "stranger within your gates" thing, and I felt bad for her, but understand she must do what she feels is right.
We did talk later about food and she said she knew she had offended me years ago when I was into the "no eggs, no sugar" mode of health, and I said that was when I was in the throes of legalism and it's just as bad to judge someone because they eat turkey as to judge them when they don't. We both agreed
I had a good time despite those minor things. My best friend loves Jesus with all her heart and she has been such a blessing in my life.
Yes, Leigh Anne, I'm interested in that discussion as well! |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 645
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 8:36 am: | |
Lucky you, Susan - you had a TV to watch! I guess we could have, if we were interested in 3ABN. Glad your Thanksgiving went well. All in all, we had a nice time also. Only one relative asked what church we have our membership at now, but there was no discussion on that. Everyone was pleasant and there were no doctrinal discussions. |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 178
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 8:44 am: | |
Ugh at 3ABN! We would have had that for Sabbath if Dish had not cancelled the station. I couldn't stomach one sight of Danny Shelton
I'm glad yours went well, too. God is good.
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Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 327
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 3:23 pm: | |
Raven and Susan, mine turned out fine, praise God! Thanks for asking. Brother-in-law kept to himself, then left early because he had to move along with Messiah's Mansion. Most of the family thinks that he's on the extreme side, even if they believe in the sanctuary message. He has quite a temper and we never know when he's either going to start a rant, or if he's just going to blow! I prayed about it ahead of time, and thankfully there was never a problem.
The food wasn't too bad either. Being that the family owns a bakery there was lots of goodies.
Also, I had actually filled up on Honey Baked Ham at my sisters before I joined my SDA family, so I wasn't affected by the Worthington!
I did have one interesting conversation with my fil and my SDA neice. She and I were discussing when life begins and the two of us agreed on conception. My fil was there and he said "No, it starts when the baby is born." When I asked him why he came to that conclusion he said that it was "When God breathes life into the baby, or when the baby actually breathes air." (There's that breath!) My neice and I didn't agree, but neither of us wanted to go any further with the conversation. Of course when I get home I remember Ps.139:13 "For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb."
Which I thought should account for something. However, I suppose his answer would be, "that's not the same as breath!"
I'm glad you ladies had a good day too.
Leigh Anne
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