| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 248 Registered: 6-2006  |
Walk, How is #4 the middle of 10? Also, I was wondering where the 10 C's are separated from the other 603 laws. I can't find that in the Bible. The next question I had was when (in history) was the yoke of the law placed on the gentiles? That's another one I have difficulty with. One thing I've learned from the many trips to the SDA church is that basically you need to become a Jew in order to be "acceptable", for lack of a better word. I just can't believe that all of the Christians (who met on the Lord's Day) between the time Jesus' resurection and 1844 were lost, or are not part of the remnant. Thanks, Leigh Anne | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 64 Registered: 9-2006 |
Leigh Anne: Commandment 4 is the dividing line between the commandments which deal with our duty to God and those that deal with our duty to man. I am very glad you, "can't believe that all of the Christians (who met on the Lord's Day) between the time Jesus' resurection and 1844 were lost,". I am curious to know who told you such a thing. The Adventist Chrurch certainly does not teach that. As for the yoke of the law put on the Gentiles, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. The Jews tried to make converts and when they did, they taught them the rituals they observed, many of which were a heavy burden and not asked for by God. God bless, WalkOnWAter | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 254 Registered: 6-2006 |
I've been taught by my Adventist family as well as visiting their church that those who meet on Sunday (or "Sunday keepers" ) are lost, and will recieve the mark of the beast. Being that many in the early church and all throughout Christian history met on the Lord's Day, (Sunday) wouldn't that include all of them? Again, I'd like to know where the 10 C's separate from the rest of the law? I guess what I'm asking regarding the Gentiles, is when were they put under the same laws as the Jews? From what I understand, the law (all 613, which includes the 10 commandments) was only given to the Jews. Is there evidence that the Gentiles were taught to, or obligated to keep the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath? Thanks, Leigh Anne | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 452 Registered: 10-2002  |
WoW, Thanks for taking my "homework" assignment seriously. Sorry it's taken so long. But I'm eagerly looking forward to reading what you think after looking at the texts & questions. The whole "assignment" came up actually because you mentioned the idea of Christ's "last will and testament". You posted something about your idea of what that was, and I wanted to (perhaps) introduce you to the places in the Bible where it actually does talk of such a thing, and in very clear language. So anyway, looking forward to your replies. Blessings in Christ, Ramone | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1577 Registered: 10-2004  |
Actually, Leigh Anne, Adventism teaches that the Sabbath did not become a "testing truth" until October 22, 1844 (which is about 2 or 3 years before Ellen White or any of the Adventists even kept it themselves ironically--and then even then they kept it at the "wrong" time for about a decade!!!), because the "light" about the Sabbath had not yet been revealed. So before 1844, people did not need to keep the Sabbath in order to go to heaven. In other words, they teach that starting in 1844 there was "a different gospel." (Not that they believe people before 1844 could be saved without working their way to heaven--just that the Sabbath specifically was not a "testing truth" yet!) Hmmm, what does the Bible say about "a different gospel"??? Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on October 29, 2006) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 255 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hey Jeremy! The Bible says that "a different gospel" is "no gospel at all". Gal 1:6,7 Does the Bible have scriptures regarding the Sabbath being the "testing truth"? Or preparing Christianity for a future prophet leading us to the "light"?  Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4870 Registered: 12-2003  |
Walk, you made your three points about the two trees, the two rivers, and the 10 Commandments. You argued that the reasons people were to avoid the one tree and to avoid the one river were not logical reasons: they were because God said so. I absolutely agree. The same argument, however, can be made regarding the 10 Commandments ONLY is one looks at the 10 through the lens of the New Testament. The New Testament is where the Old Testament is explained and revealed. Jesus foretold the obsolesence of the law. His reference to His being greater than the temple was one reference. His continual breaking of the Sabbath was another. (He did not observe nor cause his discples to observe the Levitical laws regarding Sabbathófor example, staying inside one's tent and stoning for "harvesting" on the Sabbathówhich the Pharisees accurately accused his disciples of doing. Further, on the Mount of Transfiguration, God clearly showed Peter, James and John that the law and the prophets were chaning status. They would disappear, as did Moses and Elijah, and be replaced by Jesus Himself to whom they were to listen. In fact, this reality was to be kept a mystery until after Jesus' resurrection, because until then, Israel was under the law. Then God clearly said to abandon the law as any source of hope for or guide to righteousness in Romans 3 and 7, in the book of Galatians, in Acts 15, in Colossians 2:13-15, in Hebrews, in 2 Corinthians 3. These books tell us the law is obsolete, and we are now to live by the Holy Spirit. The law is a done dealóbecause God Said So. Who are we to read the plain words of Scripture and say that they don't mean what they said? God Himself said these things through the writers, and we dare not subtract from or add to His words. We do not observe the 10 Comnandments as commandments today because God said so. Colleen | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear U2, You asked, "Can a Christian be lost if they sin?î Then you say you find the Bible clearly says, ìNO!î U2, It is my turn to say WOW!! The answer to your question is a resounding YES! Could Adam and Eve be lost if they sinned? Not only could they, they WERE! They had a perfect relationship with God. They were bathing in the righteousness of Christ and yet not only did they lose their salvation, they plunged the entire world into sin. Originally Adam and Eve had a relationship with God that we can only, by faith, dream of . Some day, by faith, we will be restored to that same lofty relationship. We do not have it now, except by faith. If Satan and Adam and Eve could lose their salvation, we can too. The heart and soul of God's government is LOVE. And true LOVE is only possible if people can freely choose whom they love. To take away a person's ability to choose whom they love, (as Hank Hanegraaff's theology does, for example) takes away free will. Taking away free will creates a government of compulsion rather than love. Lucifer was ALWAYS able to choose another master. Adam and Eve were ALWAYS able to choose another master (Before they sinned and after they sinned.) It is the blood of Jesus that makes this choice possible. With out His precious blood, Satan's and Adam and Eve's fate would have been instant annihilation. God's holiness can tolerate NO SIN IN HIS UNIVERSE, PERIOD!!! It is only the blood of Jesus that created the opportunity for Adam and Eve to have another chance, to once again choose to follow God. Built into the fabric of God's government is free will choice. And it was the blood of Jesus, even before the foundation of the world, that made choice possible. Because of Jesus, I can choose Him. Because of Jesus, I can reject Him. For all eternity that truth will be held sacred. Heaven will NOT be kept safe from sin by removing free will. That is an utter denial of the blood of Jesus. Heaven will be kept safe from sin by our free will choice to follow our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for all eternity. Praise be to God! U2, you may notice you have hit a sensitive spot with me. To believe God can play tic tac toe with free will undermines God's very character! If there is anything fixed in stone it is the fact that Jesus blood bought us freedom of choice. I fear you see this as being an Adventist thing and thus worthy of being thrown out along with the kitty liter. But to do so destroys the gospel. NOW, having said that, let's take another look at your question. Can a Christian be lost if they sin? My answer is a resounding NO! Now you may be saying, "Is this guy schizophrenic? He just said 'yes' a moment ago." The fact is, truth, has two polls, two legs it stands on. Failure to see this is what gets both Adventists and Former Adventists in trouble over and over again. The answer to your original question is both yes and no. I will always have a free will choice to sin and choose another master. HOWEVER, that does not mean that every time I sin, I am lost and every time I repent I am re-saved. Once I am a true Christian, Christ's robe of righteousness covers me and when God looks at me He sees Christ's perfection instead of my imperfection. One of the hellish problems with Adventism has been what I call "turn signal salvation". Now it is on, now it is off, now it is on, now it is off. That is heresy! But the other heresy is that once I become a Christian, I could NEVER choose to give it up. That denies the blood of Jesus which has guaranteed us the blessed freedom to love Him or not. WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Colleen: You say, "We do not observe the 10 Comnandments as commandments today because God said so." Then why would Paul say in Romans 7:12 "the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." Is God preaching "another gospel"? WalkOnWater | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 298 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW, Adam and Eve did not have the blood of Jesus cleansing them from their sins. Jesus paid the price for our past, present, and future sins!! There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!! Praise Him!! I don't believe I ever said a person has no free-will. On the contrary although not Arminian, I believe a person has free will to change their allegiance to the kingdom of darkness. I do not, however, believe that our sins will make us lost. Our sins have already been paid for by the blood of Jesus. I highly doubt that you will find many here who are Arminian in their viewpoint. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 257 Registered: 6-2006 |
Walkonwater, I think I've asked you this 3 times before, and I ask again, Will you please tell me where the 10 Commandments separate from the rest (603 rules) of the law? I also wanted to know when the Gentiles were given the ceremonial law of keeping the Sabbath (and other Jewish laws)? Don't forget what else Paul said in Romans 3:19-21 19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify." He didn't say "In addition to the law", he said "apart from the law". Please answer the above questions directly. And our friend Ramone was waiting on your answers to him as well. Thanks! Leigh Anne one last thing - Another thing Paul said is there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That means that if you are in Christ Jesus you are not condemned to lose your salvation. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 482 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dear Colleen: You say, "We do not observe the 10 Comnandments as commandments today because God said so." Then why would Paul say in Romans 7:12 "the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." Is God preaching "another gospel"? WalkOnWater ---------------------------------------------- No, God is not preaching another gospel. You, however, are using a hermaneutic that is anything but Christian. It is the same flawed approach to the study of the Bible that William Miller used to get so far off base. EGW then deliberately brought that into the SDA church. The quote from Romans has nothing to do with whether the law is gone or not. Paul is merely pointing out that the "law'---which btw was all 613 of them, was not something evil that caused people to sin. Rather, sinful man took that which was good and figured out how to twist it too something evil. An example would be the Pharisees breaking the commandment to honor their parents (and support them in old age) by declaring their possessions 'Corban'. Doing so abides by the letter of the law, but violates the intent of the law. Mankind was the problem, not the law. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Lonevking: You say, "Mankind was the problem, not the law." I agree. If there was nothing wrong with the law but there was something wrong with mankind, wouldn't it seem like one would change mankind instead of throwing away the law? And that is exaclty what God says He would do. He says He will write the law on their hearts. So the law is not done away with. God has promised to write it on our heart. WalkOnWater | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 483 Registered: 7-2000 |
If there was nothing wrong with the law but there was something wrong with mankind, wouldn't it seem like one would change mankind instead of throwing away the law? __________________________________________ You're doing it again! Let's let the Bible speak for itself: Rom. 5:12-14 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Notice well, there was sin, but no law. The law came at Siani, not at the garden of Eden. Gal. 3:19 adds to this by saying that 'the Law was added...until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made'. The law was temporary. You can't,and won't see that until you realize and leave the SDA mindset, which is to use the hermaneutic of William Miller and the false idea of 'thought inspiration'. Until then, we just wind up talking past each other. SDA's just love to, in effect say, 'well, yes that's what the Bible says, but here' what it really means'. They flop back and forth from expounding on what a word means when it suits their argument, and then go back to creating 'straw-men' that don't exist. Real Bible study doesn't work that way..... | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2006 |
You have cut to the heart of the matter, Bill. That's exactly what SDA's love to do. Susan | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Leigh Anne, You asked, "Will you please tell me where the 10 Commandments separate from the rest (603 rules) of the law?" Well, first of all, were the 603 rules written by the finger of God? No. Were the 603 written in Stone? No. Were the 603 IN the Ark of the covenant? No. Those three differences alone should show that the 10 commandments had a more significant status than the rest of the laws. Breaking the 10 commandments was punishable by death. What about the ceremonial laws? The stone denoted permanence, unchangeableness. The 10 commandments were not written by a scribe on paper like the other laws. It was written by the very finger of God. How much greater honor could be given than to have been written by God Himself? The 10 commandments had a place of greater honor than the other laws. They were enclosed in the Most Holy place INSIDE the Ark of the covenant. The other laws were written on paper and were outside the Ark. The 10 commandments were moral laws that had to do specifically with man's duty to God and His duty to others. The other laws covered a multitude of other rules and regulations. In addition, God said He would write His laws on our heart. Surely He was not referring to the laws that had to do with washings and other rituals. No one needs those written on the heart. The 10 commandments gave rules that were valid for all time. Whether you lived in 1500BC or 2006AD, murder is always wrong, adultery is always wrong, coveting is always wrong, making anything other than God into a god is always wrong. That is why the Sabbath Commandment is so strange. It is included in the list of things that are valid forever. Did God make a mistake? Perhaps He accidentally put the Sabbath Commandment into the 10 commandments. Or could it be the Sabbath Command was meant to be forever?? Those are a few of the differences. I still donít understand your other question. Can you give me your answer and then perhaps I will understand. God Bless, WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2006 |
Susan, I need you to answer the question I asked you earlier today. Thank you. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2006 |
Loneviking, thanks for your oppinion. WalkOnWater | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2006 |
WOW, You've asked me no question today. There is nothing to answer. Susan | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 259 Registered: 6-2006 |
Walk, you said... "That is why the Sabbath Commandment is so strange. It is included in the list of things that are valid forever." Can you back that up with scripture? Where did Jesus and/or Paul, Peter, James state that the "list" is forever? I can't find that. Also, I've never been in my ancestry, Jewish. That makes me a Gentile. Being that the law was given only to Isreal, I'm anxious to know where in scripture do the Gentiles recieve the torah including the Sabbath command? I'm trying to ask that as clearly as possible. I haven't been able to locate that in the Bible. The only commands that I'm aware of that Jesus gave are the are the greatest commands, Matt 22:36 - Matt 22:40 Thanks! |
