| Author | Message | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 290 Registered: 12-2004 |
Boy did I wake up with a hang over this morning---and I don't even drink!(Yet) Last night after our weekly 9 holes at the golf course my Buddy handed me this book by Roy Ganes to read. Now I had committed to read this because he read the Cottrell paper for me. What I found was a Revelation seminar packed into a mere 128 pages, complete with enough numbers, hypothesis, conjecture, and suppositions to warrant consideration for next years Nobel committee in Stockholm to take a serious look. The premise of the book was that the IJ is largely to vindicate God's Character, and that the Great Controversy continues to rage on. I will share some of the Chapter titles with you so you too can get a flavour for this book. 1)The Great War Over God's Character 2)Judgments to Demonstrate God's Character 5)Justifying God's Sanctuary and Reputation 9)Answers to Objections Regarding Judgment Beginning in 1844 12) Judged by Choosing the God Who Lets Us Choose. This book was published in 2006 as a Sabbath School Study Helps. My question to you is, have any of you read it, and were you as impressed as I was. RicB, if you are on the prowl, I know you have been dealing with this on CARM. Any words of advice regarding a short, concise and yet thoughtful response would surely be appreciated. Lucky Gerry.... gets Cultic Doctrine by Ratzlaff for his study next week. He just doesn't know it yet! Thank-you in advance for any comments from you all. Sharing the Good News, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4783 Registered: 12-2003  |
Randy, I haven't read itóbut I did edit a defense of the IJ that Roy Gane wrote for Adventist Today several years ago. I'll tell you, I am so tired of that phrase, "the character of God..." and hearing that we will help vindicate it and His reputation. Essentially, the Bible does not teach that God and Satan are doing battle for the loyalty of mankind. Colossians 2:14-16 is clear that the rulers and authorities were disarmed at the cross, that Jesus triumphed over them, and they were publicly humiliated. They are not yet destroyed, but they are completely disarmed. Satan's claim to earth is broken, and Jesus has triumphed, reconciling all things to Himself through the blood of His cross (Colossians 1:20). There IS NO Great Controversy! No one is unclear about God's soveriegnty or justice. The only thing God ever had to "justify" to the universe wasónot His fairness in punishing sinners or the validity of the lawóbut the fact that He left sin and sinners UNPUNISHSED until Jesus died (Romans 3:22-26). Contrary to Adventist propoganda, the watching universe did not question God's "fairness" or "character", as Ellen has said. The only question needing to be clarified was how God justified leaving those millennia of sins unpunished. God's righteous right to punish sin and to demand obedience to Him was never the problem. The problem was in creatures thinking God was unfair in not putting a swift end to sin. Jesus died so as to be both the justifier AND the one who is just. The entire Great Controversy idea is made up, and it elevates Satan's position far above what the Bible teaches about it. Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 292 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, Thank-you for the help. This is along the lines I was thinking. I value you comments. Randy | ||
| Borgch Registered user Username: Borgch Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen, Colleen! It's so nice to have this forum; to hear other people coming to the same honest, Bible-based conclusions independently of one another. I taught an adult sabbath school class up until the time I left the SDA denomination. Naturally, I had been doing a lot of study in the whole idea of the investigative judgment and the "character of God" issue. I wrote down the following segment and shared it with the class on one of my last weeks teaching: Now that we live in the era after Christís death, resurrection, and ascension, to suggest that the character of God remains to be vindicated before the universe, is to slap Jesus in the face as He hangs dying on the cross. Did not God demonstrate his infinite love, perfect justice, and everlasting mercy to every living creature as His own Son was sacrificed for the sake of sinners? (ìBut God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.î Rom. 5:8 NASB) Must we suggest that in order for God to really be vindicated before the universe, He must display the works of all those who claim salvation in Christ? SDA theology says that the existing universe can already see our worksóeven our secret works. What more of this can they be shown? And what can better vindicate God than the Cross? The Bible tells us that Christ (God) was vindicated by the Spirit and seen by angels (By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. 1 Tim. 3:16 NASB) Is evidence that vindicates God in the minds of the Spirit and of angels not strong evidence enough for we who are lesser beings than they? The class responded with blank stares. I'm so glad to be out of all that confusion! Jesus is such a great shepherd! --Chad Borges | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 591 Registered: 7-2004  |
As Colleen points out the whole concept of the IJ vindicating God is based on the faulty idea that God must prove some charges that aren't recorded in Scripture to be wrong. So the first question that has to be asked is from what does God's character need vindication. There is not a Scriptural answer to this. The next question that I think needs to be considered is how could human actions possibly vindicate God? What can man possibly do that will accomplish this? How can man save God? And if we don't contribute anything to God's vindication, then we have to ask what accomplishes the vindication. Sometimes SDAs will point to the cross, but if the vindication is accomplished at the cross what possible point is there in some event starting 1800 some years later? The IJ has morphed into a doctrine where God is the one being investigated in the IJ. In which case does probation close for God? This desperate attempt to save the IJ doctrine only diminishes God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4788 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Rick!! I believe this "new IJ" is even worse than the old. The old one certainly diminished the cross; this new one neutralizes God Himself. It's blasphemous. Colleen | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ric, I agree with you. What is the point of the cross, if it is our ability to keep the 10 commandments by the power of the Holy Spirit that is the focus of the great controversy?(unless I have that wrong? Is that what adventism holds as the way God's character is vindicated?) | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 750 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chad, Wow. What a statement to make during SS. I can imagine your statement caused more than blank stares (I'm thinking of the gossip that had to have happened for several weeks following). Enjoying the clearness of Jesus, Denise | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 751 Registered: 7-2004 |
Randy, Keep us informed of the book exhange with your golfing buddy. Denise | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've not read this, but I had Roy at Seminary. He was a really nice guy and an absolute gentleman. I debated a little with him, but mostly just liked the guy. I admit that he said stuff in Sanctuary class and had no idea where it came from. On the IJ to vindicate Godís character: I sorta figure that after the Cross there really isnít a whole lot more that God needs to prove to anyone. ìGreater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friendsî and allÖ If anyoneís character was in question it was Luciferís, and the cross revealed both Godís and Luciferís true natures. My reading of Daniel 7 is that judgment is passed in favor of the saints and in the end the ole snake is tossed into a lake of fire. Coming into half time its good guys 1, bad guys 0 and doesnít look like it gets any better for them. | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 204 Registered: 4-2002  |
The whole idea of God vindicating himself is disgusting to me. 1. God is soverign and, well, GOD. 2. God is not required to explain himself, vindicate himself, or "anything else" to anyone. 3. The Bible never, anywhere, says that we or any other cosmic creature have a right to question God's judgements, decisions, actions, or thoughts. and 4, To lower God to the position of having to justify himself or vindicate himself to anyone or anything is totally blasphemous. Who would ever have the 'startch" to call God to judgement for anything? To claim that right would be placing yourself in a position greater than him. The very thought is sin personified! Sorry folks but some things just make me mad! This is one of them. We all stand at HIS judgement. He stands at NO ONE'S judgement bar Thank God that Jesus takes us out of that positioh and seats us next to our father. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2161 Registered: 3-2005 |
Amen Thomas. Great points! Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2910 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thomas, AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4796 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thomas, THANK YOU!! Praise God for your powerful proclamation of His glory! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 295 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dear friends, I want to thank-you for your thoughtful and articulate thoughts on this subject. With your permission I hope to incorporate some of these thoughts into my response to my dear friend. It is very difficult for someone who has bought into the Vendon/Maxwell interpretation of justification by faith. It continues to require the belief that it is ultimately our works that "keep" us saved. Like many of you have said, this is an even more difficult idea to drop for Adventists than the traditional IJ doctrine. Thank-you again, and for your continued prayers and support to me through this forum, Randy |
