| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 248 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://blogs.ellenwhitenews.org/gjorgensen/2006/08/23/1844-for-dummies-part-1/ The logic in this weekís adult Sabbath School lesson is really, really bad ó and it goes downhill from there. I canít even imagine trying to study this weekís lesson with a fellow non-Adventist Christian. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4486 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, thanks for your excellent blog. Goldstein's quarterly seems wordy and confusing to me. I have trouble following his "logic", and reading it makes me feel all the old confusion and stupidity that I used to feel about myself when I heard this doctrine taught in school. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2311 Registered: 11-2002 |
Awhile back was an article in the Pacific Union Recorder (or was it the Review?) about a lady who converted to Adventism because of the IJ teaching. Apparently she is an accountant, therefore very good with math and figuring math problems. When presented the 1844 teaching by the SDA's it just made sense and she immediatelly became a SDA herself. My reply to that would be that God did not intend for folks to be math genisuses to understand the gosple. And, did you notice that in numerous places in the SS lesson EGW is referred to as a prophit? Generally when SDA's are confronted with the question if they accept EGW as a prophit they will say no, that they accept her as a last day teacher to make clear the true meaning of the Bible but they will stop short of actually calling her a prophit. They like to refer to her as a messenger. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 150 Registered: 6-2006  |
I'm getting to the point to where I'm thinking she was the devil. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4492 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, she certainly allowed herself to be used for evil...I suspect the power her visions gave her became just too compelling to give up. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1465 Registered: 10-2004  |
Leigh Anne, Here is what Dr. John Harvey Kellogg said about a conversation that Ellen's own husband, James White, had with him:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4493 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, that really is a telling insight into the behind-the-scenes Ellen. Thanks for sharing the quotes you share! Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeremy - Hahahahahahaha!! I'm sure that was so true! What continues to amaze me, is that this woman would make things up, or jump to the craziest conclusions, and if she got caught people would let her slide because of the lofty position she managed. I read on www.ellenwhite.org/egw43.htm the story where she accused Kellogg of spending money on a building in Chicago after reading an article in the paper. Now she couldn't just say "I read it in the paper" but she lied and said she "had a vision" . Kellogg denied it over and over, but still said to her son in the end " I am standing by your mother and the testimonies, but I am not standing by anything that is not true." That's just plain whacky! And people are still doing that today. Colleen, you're absolutely right. It's like she got so full of herself and those "visions" that she couldn't turn back. And that certainly doesn't come from God. Leigh Anne | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2314 Registered: 11-2002 |
Leigh Anne, There is one passage by EGW, and I don't know it right off but I'll just bet Jeremy can find it, where EGW says she is visited by demons in her room at night. Also, she consulted with her dead husband for advice. Sounds like getting into the occult to me. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1060 Registered: 7-2004 |
Over on CARM we seem to be having parallel discussions because we had someone post the letter she wrote to Willy about her dream where the dead James visited her, and he made suggestions about what she should do, in particular how she needed to rest more and let others assist her with the work. At the end of it (the dream) she relates how she had wistfully asked James to come and help her out again. The Adventists posting on the site make it clear that they feel Ellen could not control her dream life, that there are others of us that dream about the departed, thereby making that whole letter sound like something everybody experiences every day. I've never had a dream I could relate that clearly. I'm afraid I'm not as good at getting around that board as this one or I would find the post with the letter in it to show you. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4495 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, that is an amazing letter. I know Jeremy has posted at least portions of it in the past. Do you have it handy, Jeremy? I'm with you, Belva. My dreams just aren't that coherent. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1466 Registered: 10-2004 |
The letter can be read at: http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Talking_to_the_Dead_James.htm Also, on CARM, ChrisCarol posted about her own personal experience of being confronted by a dead loved one in a dream: http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=457322&postcount=73 Here is the quote by EGW that Susan referred to:
Also, Ellen G. White said that the same "young man" (spirit guide) guided her for decades. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2755 Registered: 3-2004  |
It looks to me that EGW thought she could fight off Satan's evil angels by herself. Makes me wonder even more about her. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 251 Registered: 11-2005 |
White Washed, by Sydney Cleveland, is an excellent book. In it he has a chapter on page 123, "Who was that young man?" http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1001721445 "I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, ... This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years." -- Ellen White in Signs of the Times, Nov, 11, 1875 She also said that she had Out of the Body experiences: "Nov. 3, 1890, while laboring at Salamanca, N. Y., as I was in communion with God in the night season, I was taken out of and away from myself to assemblies in different States, where I bore decided testimony of reproof and warning. In Battle Creek a council of ministers and responsible men from the publishing house and other institutions was convened, and I heard those assembled, in no gentle spirit, advance sentiments and urge measures for adoption that filled me with apprehension and distress. Life Sketches, page 319 http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp Enoch, Elijah, Ezekiel and Phillip were all bodily tansported by the Holy Spirit to another location. They never had out-of-body experiences. Spiritualists refer to what Ellen White described as "astral projection" or OBEs. Ellen White also stated that on multiple occasions she smelled the "fragrance of roses". See Life Sketches, page 310, for example. She also stated in Manuscript 25 (1910) that on one occasion "Legions of evil angels" were in her room. This is all in the chapter in White Washed. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4506 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Gilbertó"White Washed" is an excellent book and was the final "eye opener" for me. We had already left when I read the bookóbut it totally confirmed my conviction that Ellen had not just brain damage bu evil spirits influencing her. Ellen was certainly manipulated, misused, and undoubtedly abused in many ways by the "brethren". But she was not innocent. She herself received those visions and dreams, and she herself said her "stuff" came from God. She herself had her "familiar spirit" guide during her later years. She was deeply compromised. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1467 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually, it wasn't just in her later years. It was 1875 that she wrote the article in the Review saying that this "young man" had been appearing to her for 26 years. That means that this demon guide was with Ellen starting in 1849! Ellen's article, entitled "A Remarkable Dream," published in the 11-04-1875 issue of Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, starts out this way: "Several speakers had addressed large and attentive congregations at the camp meeting at Rome, N. Y., on first-day, September 12, 1875. The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years. Said he, [...]" Then most of the rest of the 13-paragraph article appears to be just a quotation of her spirit guide. (Although there are no quotation marks, which, interestingly, contradicts Ellen's 1867 claim that: "...the words I employ in describing what I have seen are my own, unless they be those spoken to me by an angel, which I always enclose in marks of quotation.") Anyway, at the end, the article is signed, "Ellen G. White. Oakland, Cal., October 20, 1875." What's also interesting is the purpose of this dream. The spirit guide told Ellen that they needed to start what became known as the Adventist colporteur "ministry"/literature "evangelism"! Arthur White (Ellen's grandson), in his biography Ellen G. White Volume 2 The Progressive Years 1862-1876 (page 481, paragraph 2), writes:
And then the (evil) angel goes on to explain to Ellen that they need to start a colporteur ministry! I have always felt that that part of the Adventist "work" was especially evil. Now I know why...! It was directly established by a demon. Wow. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 25, 2006) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2006  |
The following is from the August, 2006 Harpers Magazine, pg 37,38. I share this without criticism of those who looked forward to the coming of Jesus in 1844, or those who look forward to His soon return today. ìNor are we strangers to exact end dates, usually arrived at after prolonged study. Among American prophets, one of the most popular was William Miller, a farmer from New England who spent years calculating the exact date of the end, drawing largely on the book of Daniel. Eventually he announced that it would happen sometime during the year following March 21, 1843. He was soon lecturing on the topic across the country. March 21, 1844 passed, however, and the world persisted. The Millerites were more than willing to be wrong again, though, andóafter some recalculationsóa new date, October 22, 1844, was set. The movement rebounded and prospered. As many as 100,000 were convinced; farmers abandoned their fields, and shopkeepers closed their doors, quite sure they would not see the end of the year. The day after would be dubbed the Great Disappointment. Being wrong does little to harm a god apocalyptic movement. The Millerites soldier on, in the form of their descendants the Seventh-day Adventists, father of David Koresh and his prophecies. The apocalyptic world view, in fact, is like that awful beast in the old science fiction moviesóblasts from the ray guns of history only make it stronger. This odd paradox was partially explained in 1956 by a trio of sociologists from the University of Minnesota, led by Leon Festinger. In When Prophecy Fails, Festinger and his co-authors explained that a committed believer, faced with irrefutable evidence contradicting his beliefówith what Festinger called a ìdisconfirmationîówould redouble rather than diminish his efforts to defend his view. Stranger yet, the more harshly the reality dealt with a belief, the more feverishly the believer would work to convert others. As scientists, Festinger et al. needed to test their theory, and their unwitting test subject was a middle-aged homemaker in Lake City, Illinois, with a deep interest in the occult. They call her Marian Keech, and in 1954 she began receiving messages from a being called Sananda, of the planed Clarion, which she relayed to a small group of followers. The transmissions included much about aliens, Sanandaís relation to God, paths to enlightenment, and also the news that the world would be flooded on December 21, 1954. Only the pure believers would be saved, spirited away the night before in flying saucers. In expectation, members of the groupówhich had been infiltrated by Festingerís crewóneglected their families, quit their jobs, and moved, leaving bills unpaid. On the night of December 20, Keech and her followers assembled in her back yard to wait for the saucers, which failed to arrive, as they always do. After a few hours of dismay and confusion, however, Keech said she had just received a new message that clarified some of the earlier information. The group had, in fact, averted the flood by way of their advanced spiritual development. It was identical, as Festinger points out, to the behavior of Miller and his followers a century earlier. As Festinger writes: A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point.î Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4539 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, my goodness, Bobóthat is so interesting! Amazing parallel. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 634 Registered: 8-2004  |
'A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still'. I wonder why that is? I'm so glad that God doesn't give up on us because we're stubborn! What a freedom when we surrender to him with joy! Blessings, Mary |
