| Author | Message | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 273 Registered: 6-2005 |
Is it just an "Ellenism"? This leftover fear of "emotionalism". This distrust of anything other than intellectual doctrinal understanding? I run across this attitude with current SDA's, and even formers. Warnings not to get "overemotional", "dont be driven by emotion", "avoid that church because they are charismatic". Its seems somehow tied into the distrust of the gifts of the Spirit, that Ellen warned against, and any "Acts" type experiences. Is as if we are somehow supposed to walk this Chiristian life without the power of the resurrected Christ evident in us. Ive done that, and I pray that I never return to that wasteland. Yes, people get "carried away". Yes, some people thrive only in the emotion, yes there are counterfit signs and wonders. But scripture has far many more warnings about the opposite, i.e. those with stony hearts, hardened hearts, long scripted prayers, closed eyes and ears etc. etc. The imagery of the Bible is emotional reaction to an intellectual and Spirit enlightened understanding. Read Psalm, Revelation, Ephesians, Isaiah, Song of Solomon, Romans. See Jesus sweat blood, see him mourn over Jerusalem, see his tenderness with His friends as well as His enemies. See the disciples call on the Name of Jesus in faith, and have miricles happen. So the question to ponder is, is it more scripturally sound to cry out to God, to Praise Him with Cymbals, to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, to rejoice, to love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, to raise Holy Hands, or to live a life of spritual paralysis. Are those beliefs about the necessitiy of emotional restraint and fear of spritual gifts from adventism, or from Scripture? | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2004 |
I've found the fear of emotionalism to not only be in SDA churches, but in other Christian churches. I've found that most people who say that do not have a personal knowledge of a charismatic type church. Doctrinal understanding and expressing emotion can co-exisit. While the Bible warns about signs and wonders that are not from God, it also sternly warns about calling works of the Holy Spirit as being of the devil in Matthew 12. I don't think it is an Ellenism because it isn't exclusive to SDAs. "Emotionalism" isn't about doing what you feel or doing what feels good, but your heart expressing the joy of the Lord and the gratitude for what He has done. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 151 Registered: 11-2005 |
I'm not sure if it's just an "ellenism", but that ellen-indoctrination definitely played a role for me when I first started really recognizing the noticeable "difference" in other churches (joy, praise, celebration, etc.), and started wondering why the Adventist church seemed to be missing something. I was still in limbo at the time -- I was still hoping that Adventism did have the truth, and was still very much trying to give Adventism a "chance". I remember talking to my Adventist mentor about this "difference" that I was noticing in other churches. He told me to prayerfully read the chapter "Modern Revivals" from the Great Controversy. He told me that at the end of time, emotions will be one of the key ways that the devil will decieve us. I vividly remember being very confused about this, and copied part of a passage from that chapter into my journal. Here is the part: "The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work; and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will make it appear that God's special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world. In many of the revivals which have occurred during the last half century, the same influences have been at work, to a greater or less degree, that will be manifest in the more extensive movements of the future. There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead." (page 464, Great Controversy) Now, as I reread it, it seems so blasphemous to give the devil credit for something God is doing. But at the time, it scared me to death. So, it was then that I made a personal decision to not get emotionally involved during this searching time, but to start really investigating Adventism from a logical view based off of facts from the Bible. It took me an additional year to start knowing cognitively the problems with Adventism. The thing is, when you start getting to a point of realizing what "truth" really is, you can't help but start getting emotionally touched too. My earlier "deal" to myself to not get emotionally involved didn't last for long after I started learning more and more truth. Leaving Adventism allowed me to really "feel"; it brought me deep, emotional unexplainable feelings for the first time. It was a natural consequence that I couldn't fight. I still definitely struggle with this fear of "emotionalism" -- and I'm almost certain it is definitely left over baggage from Adventism. Praise and worship has become so much more meaningful to me over these past 7 months, but at the same time, I find myself holding back sometimes. It's as if I have this STRONG inhibition to let my emotions show. Sometimes I just can't "fight" it, and I'm often surprised at being moved to tears during a powerful testimony or song service. But, as a whole, it's something I really struggle against and find myself pushing those feelings back. I know now that it's not something I should be scared about, but at times I have to admit to being a little intimidated by all the workings of the Spirit. Good topic -- it's something I've been pondering a lot over recently. I'm interested to hear what others have to say. By the way, in reading back through my journal entry to look for that Great Controversy passage, I got a glimpse of remembering what it was like in that limbo stage. Boy was I confused!!! Even then though, through all that confusion, I can see how God was giving me insights and teaching me through His Word. It's incredible to look back on that time, and see where He's taken me from. I'm so thankful that in His mercy, He delivered me from all that confusion and frustration of trying to please Him, into a life of knowing how to love Him. It's incredible!! | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2005 |
Overall, I find it hard to balance my head with my heart. I'm definitely a feeling person, but yet only to a certain extent do I allow myself to be. I would even describe myself as somewhat emotional, but am really only comfortable with "controlled emotions". And again, I think a large part of that is from my Adventist background and culture I was brought up in. Good point U2bsda about "Doctrinal understanding and expressing emotion can co-exisit." | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 260 Registered: 10-2002  |
It does seem particularly strong in Adventism, but it is also true of many other churches, and there seem to be several things involved, or several roots. Here's a few: 1) No one wants to look extreme, and no one wants to look foolish. Just like Michal when she saw David dancing before the ark of the covenant in his linen ephod, or just like the king who wouldn't put some "umph" into it when Elisha told him to smash the arrows on the floor for Israel's victory. Essentially this is fear of man... when we esteem what others think more than what God thinks. 2) For a lot of us there is security in rational knowledge. If we can explain something, then we feel somehow like we've mastered it. We're afraid of the unknown, and we want to be in control. If there's no map, we'd better make one. We imagine that rational knowledge can be mapped or systematized (really, though, life isn't that way). 3) We've been hurt too much. Satan has told us the lie that happiness and joy are vain fleeting illusions, and that pain and suffering are the "real life". In my own life and in my family, some of us felt we were very rational & logical, but the truth underneath is that we were very emotional. We ourselves were usually the last to know it, though! Anyway, the solution to all this is life in the Spirit. Not life in the logical nor life in the emotional. Both logic and emotion are gifts to us, but the enemy wants us to find our security either in our rational thought systems (or theology) or in our feelings and emotions (in our "highs" with God). Life in the Spirit is something different. And I can't map out exactly how it is different! Hallelujah! Really. Because the Spirit is Him, not me, and maybe in this case I need to think rationally, but in this other case I need to listen to my emotions, because maybe something deep inside of me is telling me that there's an unaddressed pain inside (ironically, counseling psychology often takes a more healthy & wholistic approach to emotions than much of Christianity). It's different each time. I rest by faith in Jesus, in who He is and what He's done. The Scriptures are there to balance whatever I'm thinking or feeling, and even better, the One who wrote the Scriptures is always with me (according to what He says in them, and according to all I've seen in my own life). It's taken some time to let Him "reconnect my head and my heart"... it's been a healing process. But the fruit is wonderful. If anyone's having trouble, ask Him to reconnect your head and your heart, and to bring your whole life under submission to His Spirit. He'll teach you when He's speaking something through your head or through your heart. Ask Him to remove the fear of your emotions... in Him there's no need to be afraid, especially no need to be afraid of something He's put in you to bless you! As you lose yourself in Him, you can trust that you'll never get lost in one area or another. (P.S. I wrote a little of one of my experiences with shedding fear of man here.) | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 |
Snowboardingmom quote: "Now, as I reread it, it seems so blasphemous to give the devil credit for something God is doing. But at the time, it scared me to death. So, it was then that I made a personal decision to not get emotionally involved during this searching time, but to start really investigating Adventism from a logical view based off of facts from the Bible. It took me an additional year to start knowing cognitively the problems with Adventism." I totally went through the same thing. I saw and experienced things that I knew were of God, but at the same time there was an inbuilt fear. During my time of transition out of Adventism I learned of so many things in the Bible that I had never seen before. Seeing signs/wonders/miracles/etc was not proof for me since I came to that with a high level of suspicion. The Bible had to be and still continues to be the basis for what I believe no matter what I see or experience. Agapetos, I agree that there is definitely a fear of man in hesitation to express emotion. I think a good way to look at that is how expressive with God we can be in the privacy of our own bedroom and how expressive we are around others. Those shouldn't be different. It was seeing the expression of the joy of the Lord which first led me to doubt that Adventism was the truth and all other churches were wrong. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2002 |
I wish I could remember the name of the book, but someone showed me a book aimed at helping Adventists find freedom in Christ, and one of the chapter titles was: "Are you suspicious of joy?"  | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 235 Registered: 4-2005  |
Everytime my spirit is soaked with some degree of the presence of God, my heart leaps for joy, as it were. Those times are so precious and even "delicious" I cannot help but wish for it to take place the next time I sit before the Lord in worship and devotions. It's a real challenge to my own spirit to not have this "longing" dominate my thoughts throughout my worship time and Bible reading time. I.E., it's easy to get "hooked" on these wonderful feelings. The heart enjoys this flood of joy and love for Jesus, and adoration and praise for FATHER, Son and Holy Spirit. When objective thought brings balance back, I realize that the danger of times when the atmosphere of music, testimonies, sermons, etc. is such that emotions of some sort, permeate the congregation like phamplets being handed out, and people's conversations afterword inevitably focus on the great joy and good feeling, "wasn't it wonderful!" expressions afterword. So it's easy to kinda be hooked on emotion and seeking to "feel good" during and following all corporate worship; when the primary motive of all worship, obviously, is to worship God, give glory and praise to Him; not to allow a shift of focus onto the emotion, rather than the "Object" of the praise and joy - God Eternal. We might appropriately say, true worship is to worship in the (right) spirit and in truth. On the flip side, I miss expressions of more genuine emotion from most corporate worship services I have attended. I include here, hearty Amen's following expressions of truth that calls for a response from one's heart and experience. The sin, if I may call it that, is when worship leaders have a motive and set forth a program style which is aimed at eliciting a wholesale spirit of high emotion from the audience; rather than allow any such expressions come from individual hearts as they are so moved by the Holy Spirit Himself. I personally feel more comfortable in the private worship time in my own home with my own wife, than in a formal worship setting. I do not wish to call attention to myself, by my exuberant physical or verbal expressions, and thus draw other's focus away from worshiping the Lord Himself. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 274 Registered: 6-2005 |
Ramone, you said "Anyway, the solution to all this is life in the Spirit. Not life in the logical nor life in the emotional. Both logic and emotion are gifts to us, but the enemy wants us to find our security either in our rational thought systems (or theology) or in our feelings and emotions (in our "highs" with God). Life in the Spirit is something different. And I can't map out exactly how it is different! Hallelujah! " Yes! Thank you for that, It clears up alot of stuff for me. I think its a case of speaking a different "language". I'm trying to describe or testify about life in the Spirit--my Spirit responding to the Spirit of God---,and I think others hear emotionalism. It's really not the same at all. Its a new category of experience. Often the quiet, alone times, waiting on God, are the most "emotional". I think I need a new word to describe my experience. Grace and U2, Its good to hear others have had that fear, and hesitaion, and still respond when God calls us to a more intimate relationship with Him anyway. Grace, those GC quotes were what I remembered. They make me shudder. Jess, worship at church today was loud and quiet, rejoicing and reflective, corporate and personal, victorious and convicting. I have walked into a couple of other churches in the past, where worship "looked" the same on the surface, and felt compelled to leave. Im grateful for the discernment God has given me, I pray diligently for that protection: "God, if this is from you, give me more--if not, take it away." I visitied one of the largest churches in Atlanta area, and the pastor said "follow me, as I follow Him". I got up and left! Wrong thing for a former to hear--I don't need a human "mediator". . Lori | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 588 Registered: 8-2004  |
In this morning's sermon our pastor was talking about the same thing Ramone mentioned. He pointed out that the love God gives us to love others with (agape) is based neither in reason or emotions. It is not just a feeling, and it is not something we reach thru 'logic' either. It is a gift of God. What an awesome realization! Mary | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1449 Registered: 7-2003 |
I remember B was even critical of promise keepers and refused to go because it was a bunch of emotional hype and didn't really have anything to do with God. I'd never heard of someone calling praising God across the denominational divide as 'emotional hype'. It was quite shocking as most men I'd known that had gone to it found it to be quite spiritually moving, even my dad, who can be quite stoic. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 589 Registered: 8-2004 |
People from SDA and SDARM churches have stood outside Promise Keepers and passed out liturature, trying to 'turn people from their wicked ways'. It was considered a counterfiet of the 'true working of the Holy Spirit' by them. In fact, there were SDA and SDARM people scared of what is going on with Promise Keepers. It's Ecuminism, and, according to their understanding of EGW (paraphrasing) 'when Apostate Protestantism joins hands agross the gulf with Catholicism and Spiritualism' the 'time of trouble' is almost here. Then persecution will begin in which all these 'apostates' will seek out and destroy the 'true commandmentkeeping people'. It's no wonder they were scared of Promise Keepers! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2725 Registered: 3-2004  |
About emotions!!! When I was a kid in SDA schools and in academy and college, I remember the weeks of prayer and on the last day, a call would be made for those who wanted to know God or whatever it was. It was a very emotionally charged call and I would go forward. NO ONE ever came to me or spoke to me, afterward, about God when I did. Sometime after I finished college I decided that I would never let my emotions get ahold of me like that again. I decided that being emotional did not fit in with religion(and I am a very emotional person). It was not until after I found Christ 2 & 1/2 years ago that I would feel like crying in church just because the room was so spirit filled. Today it happened again. I let the tears come and rejoiced in them. My tears were tears of joy. So different then when I was an adventist. God, you are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 262 Registered: 10-2002 |
God is awesome, Diana! Mary--- That EGW quote (paraphrase) reminds me of something. You know how EGW & Adventist end-times theology say that the persecution will be directed against "those who keep the faith of Jesus and commandments of God" (Rev.12:17)... they thought this referred to the Ten Commandments, particularly the Sabbath, so that would form part of their basis for saying that Satan hates those who keep the Sabbath, etc. But we know that the "commandments of God" are spelled out in John's gospel and in his letters---believe in God's Son and love one another as He loved us. It's obedience to these that really angers Satan. Agape love ticks him off. Loving one another with Jesus' love ticks him off. Believing in God's Son ticks him off (because then we're not phased by his lies, but stand in God's armor, having "put on Christ", and know we are held safely in His hands). I realized: "What got Christ crucified?" Among other things, His love for the un-pious, the un-religious, the outcasts, the "sinners". He regularly blasted the higher-ups and made parables about outcasts & dirty Samaritans being more righteous than they were. In a word, His agape love offended them and upset their "kingdom". John said that He made them afraid of losing their temple & their whole nation. Grace was too free and too many people were following Him. Jesus said that the world would know we were His by agape love---by loving one another as He loved us. So when "the dragon" becomes enraged at His kids, it's because they believe in Him and because they lay down their lives in agape love. The enemy hates the fragrance of grace, of God's grace given to His kids, and of grace shared with one another. A couple months ago I shared a little of this when my Adventist friend here asked what I thought the mark of the beast was (or something like that), when he asked what the issue would be in the end if it weren't the Sabbath. I said it would be the same thing as it's always been---God and Love. He didn't quite get that because well, it's a bit too simple maybe? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4425 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, I agree: emotionalism is completely different from experiencing some emotional response to God through the presence of the Spirit. I am still overwhelmed at the sense of the presence of God in church during worship. When I first left ADventism and began attending the church we're at now, I used to come home and try to analyze where my tears "came from". I had a belief that tears were based in some experience or distress or sorrow or 'whatever'. I finally realized that my tears were coming from the Holy Spirit helping me worship and experience the presence of Jesus and the joy of knowing Him. And yes, it all has to based in Scriptureóand one of God's gifts to us when we are born from above is the bringing to life of our emotions. The Bible is full of commands to "be thankful" and to "give thanks" and "praise the Lord". These responses to God's provision and faithfulness always generate emotionsóbut they are rooted in our now-alive spirits, and these experiences are completely different from the emotionalism we were warned against as Adventists. Love for God is so amazingóand it's real. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2276 Registered: 11-2002 |
If I remember correctly at those Revelation seminars the last day of the meetings someone is playing the song, "Just As I Am" on the piano and the congreation is moaning the words to that song while the poor blokes go forward only to learn that to be baptized as an Adventist they are not wanted 'just as I am'. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 276 Registered: 6-2005 |
Susan, thank you for that statement. I am amazed at the truth in that, how profound. It brought instant tears to my eyes. I took a break after reading in, and will start a new thread with what God gave me. Lori | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 290 Registered: 7-2005  |
True emotions of praising God can flow only if someone knows for sure who God is in reality. When we discover that we are solidly anchored in the loving heart of God, that He forgived all our sins by a single sacrifice, only then we are secure to show our true emotions, joy, gladness, sorrow for our sins which insulted God,. We live by faith, not by emotions, this means that we don't rely on emotions for believing. We don't expect to feel that God loves us, before trusting in Him, especially in difficult times, in trials, in sorrows, in times when the hand of God is not visible. Many adventists live their entire life as they don't see the hand of God, without emotions generated by hearing the word of God, because they are under the law. They are basically unsure what God really thinks about them, practically under condemnation. No matter how much they talked about grace, it's only a hope, not assurance. Nobody can have assurance of salvation and a right standing before God, nobody can be sure of God's love and favour, because nobody keeps the law perfectly. Perhaps these are bold statements, but as long as someone is under the law, he cannot experience a profound peace, only a superficial one, at the surface. Even evangelical adventists have no assurance of salvation. How could they have? They are forced to adopt a liberal view of Ellen White, trying to forget the legalistic parts of her writings, and emphasizing her more gospel-sounding writings. After adopting a liberal view of inspiration, like "this part is the human Ellen White", the next step is to see the Bible as fallible. Now their faith in the Bible is diminished. Adopting a liberal, critical view of the inspiration of the Bible, they cannot have full assurance that what the Bible said about something is indeed truth. From their perspective, it can be only a human manifestation of the prophet, not the word of God, an error. And in this way, nothing in the Bible is entirely reliable, including the great promises of Jesus Christ, "Nobody can pluck my sheeps from my hands" how can you have true sentiments, when you are unsure about God? When you don't know that our sins are entirely forgiven? The unfinished atonement has a bad result: you cannot be joyful today of your forgiveness, tomorrow your joy can turn in sorrow, because your sins, already forgiven can become unforgiven, and it's not good to be full of joy today, tomorrow you may be full of sorrow. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4437 Registered: 12-2003 |
Again, Jacob, you have stated this situation so clearly. You're absolutely right that we cannot experience joy and confidence in God if we really don't know who He isóand if we really don't have confidence in what the Bible says about Him. I know that I never had confidence that I was saved for sure until I let go completely of the possibility that Ellen White might have had some insights from God. As long as I held the possibility that she might have had some information from Him, there was always the possibility that ANYTHING she said might be true. Security was not part of my experience. Anxiety, on the other hand, was omnipresent. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 291 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen, I want to help a friend of mine who is still thinking that in some parts Ellen White had some insights from God. He's thinking exactly as you stated: the possibility that ANYTHING she said might be true. It's an anxiety generated by a phobia, a fear of sunday law. What is difficult for me is that I cannot asure him that a sunday law will never occur. Of course, my friend is very liberal about the inspiration of Ellen White, he actually expect to be a scenario different than that presented by Ellen White, a more lax or unformal sunday law. He is thinking that christianity has as a symbol the Sunday, Lord's Day, jews have the sabbath, muslims perhaps friday, or something like this. As a reaction to other's religions, sunday may became the symbol of christianity in his fight with the pagan and the other monotheistic religions of the world. He sees the final battle as a battle between christendom and muslims and jews, somethimg like this. Because of those "blue laws" and some attempts in the nineteenth century to make a sunday law in USA, he's afraid that, in a different way, a sunday law will appear in the USA, and religious intolerance will win the battle. A liberal himself, he sees liberalism, secularism and humanism, which have roots in illuminism, as promoters of freedom. In his view, the religious liberty of USA is a product of deists, or humanists of the day Because of these, and because I prove that a Sunday law will not appear in the USA, I cannot apply the classic methods used in the treatment of phobias. It's a fear of the unknown future, and this is a powerfull obstacle between him and Christ. My friend is recognizing that adventism has many weak points. But all these weak points can dissapear in a second if sunday law appears and the prophetic gift of Ellen White is confirmed, as you said, Colleen, ANYTHING she said might be true. It's very frustrating for me, my friend is so close, but also so far away from the gospel. He is actually thinking that the gospel message of the Bible can be interpreted in two ways, the adventist way and the evangelical, protestant way. But he is so caught in this mess that he cannot see clearly the truth, he's thinking only at levels of human interpretations. He's distrusting his capacity to reason, thinking that he's missing something which he fears will prove Ellen White right. Beside praying for him, I hope there is a way to touch and remove this barrier from his way to Christ. |
