| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2006  |
I've got an interesting question: how does one know if they were raised in 'historic Adventism' as opposed to 'evangelical Adventism' (or any other kind for that matter)? It wasn't until just a few years ago that I heard of historic Adventism. I thought it was a relatively new movement that advocated going back to the way the church supposedly was in the time of EGW. I've read several comments that indicate that all along there have been noticeable differences among Adventists, perhaps based on the location. I'm certainly begining to think that the brand I was raised in here in southern Missouri was historic. In fact, I am told that my grandfather (who ruled the church that I was raised in until the day he died) actually met Ellen White (he was born in 1894). We certainly were taught a particularly rigid and virulent strain of it, that's for sure. When I moved to Illinois in 1969 to work at an Adventist hospital and saw Adventist women wearing wedding rings, I was shocked and astounded. Of course, it wasn't long until I went right out and got my ears pierced! Ever the rebel, Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4052 Registered: 12-2003  |
I think you were raised pretty "historically", Joyce! Historic Adventism takes Ellen White very seriously and shapes its lifestyle and behaviors by her instructions and by her interpretations of the Bible. Colleen | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 |
i have noticed that my husband's fmily from california are not nearly as conservative as his family from the south. in a way, almost like different religions. are the core beliefs still the same, though? from what i have read on this site, they have the same interpretation of the bible. | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2006 |
Very interesting..... all my life I had assumed that all SDAs were the same. Even though it was fairly obvious that not all Baptists, not all Methodists, etc, etc are the same. Why would SDAs be all alike? Especially, when you consider the differences in cultures in different regions of the country. This explains a lot for me. Too bad we didn't have the internet many years ago. I could have gotten a lot of my questions answered so much sooner... saved myself a lot of angst! I'm even having the reaction now as I listen to some of these more 'modern' or 'liberal' SDAs that, gee, if I had been raised in this, I might never have left. I think that in any body of teachings, if there is allowed some room to question, to dissent, room for a person to have their own reactions and interpretations to the teachings, we can then be more comfortable in that religion, even when we don't necessarily agree with everything that is presented. That's how I feel where I am now. I like pretty much everything I hear, but I know that I entered into it with the attitude, I will make up my own mind, I won't be, and don't have to be, dictated to by any other person. My mind was given to me to use, and I WILL use it. It makes it so much easier to just relate to the people, relate to God, and let all that other little doctrinal stuff that doesn't matter pass off to the side if it doesn't ring true for me. After all, God is the REAL reality, all else is just commentary. (I think that's an old Jewish saying). I also realize how very difficult it is to even conceive of this kind of thinking, because as Adventists we were taught a very rigid, right/wrong, good/bad, either/or approach to the world. It was always, you're either right or you're wrong. There's no in-between. There's no 'that really doesn't matter'. Nope. EVERYTHING MATTERED. Big time! Every little factoid, every little truth, every little interpretation. When I think about it, I am amazed that I EVER learned to think for myself at all. No wonder it took me 30 years to finally get started!!! Still sitting in amazement (and I'd better stop sitting, and start getting ready, or I'll never make it to church). Bye all, Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4055 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Nicoleóthey have the same core beliefs. More liberal Adventists are looser in their "observances", but on the bottom line, they are loyal to the same ideas and fundamentals. Ellen White underlies all of their beliefs and understandings. There is only one Adventist church. Some Adventists do not know all the "deeper teachings" of Ellen White, but those beliefs are still part of their religion, and they shape their big picture of reality even though they don't know the specifics. One of our Friday night Bible study members made an interesting observation this past Friday that I'd never thought of in this way, but it was accurate. We were reading Hebrews 10:26-31 and remarking that the investigative judgment with its teaching that Jesus' blood defiled the heavenly sanctuary until after the juddgment was over. This belief is actually heretical, because never, even in the OT sacrifices, did the blood defile the temple. The blood always cleansed. Yet Adventism teaches that our sins carried in Jesus' blood defiled heaven until the IJ was over. We were realizing that this core Adventist teaching actually stands in direct opposition to Hebrews 6:26-31 and qualifies as tramping on the blood of the covenant and calling it an unholy thing, as Hebrews says. In fact, Ellen White says that after Jesus completes his investigation and moves into the presence of His Father, those who did not pass muster do not know that Jesus is done and that their probation is closed. She says that when Jesus moves from the Holy Place into the Most Holy place, Satan takes Jesus' place on the throne in the holy place and it is he who answers the prayers of those on earth who do not know they did not pass the IJ. They are here on earth, praying to Jesus, but Satan is answering their prayers. One of our members remarked that Adventism has "levels" of teaching. New converts and the public are never told about these "deeper" teachings which are blatantly unbiblical. One has to be more deeply involved in the church to begin learning these darker teachings, just as in Mormonism there are levels of knowledge depending upon how immersed one is in the church. Yet even if people are not initiated into these deeper and darker facts, they still shape even the "outer levels" of Adventism. The answer to your quesetion, Nicole, is that yes, the beliefs are the same. The two families may not possess the same awareness of those teachings, but the teachings are still part of the religion and still shape their beliefs. The fact of the power and the fear associated with these underlying heresies has much to do with why people have such trouble leaving, even though they cannot adequately explain their emotional ties. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2559 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have learned since leaving the SDA church that individuals-SDA pastors and members-may believe the gospel and even preach it from the pulpit. But the official beliefs of the 28 fundamentals are still the same no matter what the individual believes. Those 28 fundamentals come down from the GC and have not changed. Just my 2 cents worth. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 298 Registered: 6-2001  |
Aren't true historic Adventist churches not even part of the General Conference? The one that I am familiar with (Steps to Life)considers itself the "true" adventist remnant, because the GC has abandoned EGW with new-found beliefs on the Trinity and "collusion" with other denominations. From my experience, historic Adventism is everything you don't like about general Adventism x 10. Unfortunately, Hannah | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1712 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah, You are correct. Technically historic Adventism is outside of the official SDA church, as they are Arian, anti-trinitarian, elevate Ellen above scripture, and live very legalistically. Adventism is not monolithic. Kenneth Samples who wrote the Forward to Dale's book on Cultic Doctrine identified five different kinds of SDAs when he did his extensive research. There is no way a liberal Loma Linda Adventist is the same as a conservative mid-west SDA. (Removed--topic closed) Stan (Message edited by admin on May 28, 2006) | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 415 Registered: 10-2005 |
I lived in a very liberal part of California. I found the conservative ways of the Adventists there to be more consistent with the bible than other denominations when I became an Adventist. I thought it only made sense that Christians would need doctrine to tell them to eat a certain way and not to smoke, etc. in order to stay in line. Without laws, we would all be speeding in our vehicles and doing illegal things, eating bad, etc. despite being Christians. I figured with laws in place, folks would be less likely to break them. I come from a law enforcement family. I saw the better Adventists as being more uptight, the folks I really didn't like. Funny thing about that though was if I were to be the Adventist I really thought I needed to be, or hoped I could someday be, I would be just like them. But I couldn't be like them. I didn't see the connection. I was in a more evangelical area. I was taught grace alone and tried to live by it. But with the teachings of EGW, there is no way you cannot connect historic and evangelical, for they both require works, regardless of how many works are involved. Works is works and Adventism is Adventism. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 522 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, can you give me the quote and referrence for the following. I'm trying to keep a collection of referrences and quotes. "She says that when Jesus moves from the Holy Place into the Most Holy place, Satan takes Jesus' place on the throne in the holy place and it is he who answers the prayers of those on earth who do not know they did not pass the IJ. They are here on earth, praying to Jesus, but Satan is answering their prayers. " Thanks, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2227 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joyce, from what you wrote I would guess you were raised very much in the hysterical Adventist tradition. Ooops, I ment to write historical Adventist tradition. As I mentioned in an earlier thread I have cousins who are SDA ministers, fulltime employment in that position and their children are in dance class and they wear jewlery. There seems to be a tad bit of individualism within SDA'ism. The core beliefs remain the same. I do honestly believe those who weren't raised by the 28 fundamentals and were raised in homes with individualism and freedom of thought just don't even know what their own church believes and teaches. I run into SDA's frequently that will deny that the SDA churche expouses this or that. When I tell them it does too and they need to get out their 28 fundamentals, their baptisimal vows and their SDA handbook and they can see for themselves that I am speeking the truth they tend to just shrug me off with a comment such as, "Oh well, the church doesn't enforce those rules anymore so they don't count, they don't affect me." But, if they'd actually read the SS quarterly, the Review and the other SDA printed matter they would realize just because they don't get called to take off their earrings or this or that, they would realize the SDA church as an organizatuion is still very much of the historical SDA mindset. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 727 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, All "different kinds of SDAs" adhere to the same twenty-eight fundamental doctrines of the SDA Church. The difference lies in some trying to obey fewer directives of their prophetess and messenger, Ellen G. White. The truth is that they all love her and are enslaved to her. After all, she is their church mother. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2006  |
Colleen am a little confused about your statement regarding to the cronological order: "In fact, Ellen White says that after Jesus completes his investigation and moves into the presence of His Father, those who did not pass muster do not know that Jesus is done and that their probation is closed. She says that when Jesus moves from the Holy Place into the Most Holy place, Satan takes Jesus' place on the throne in the holy place and it is he who answers the prayers of those on earth who do not know they did not pass the IJ. They are here on earth, praying to Jesus, but Satan is answering their prayers." Isnt it so, according to EGW, that Jesus in 1844 moved into the Most Holy place? And there began the IJ? And is still continuing it? And when he is done he will return to Earth? So it is more like thoes how do not know that Jesus moved into the most holy place in 1844, is thoes whos prayers are not heard by Jesus but by satan instead. IE Not a future event .. she is acusing all other churches than SDA to be praying to Satan at this very moment. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1306 Registered: 10-2004  |
EDIT: Mwh, I just saw your post. Yes, you would be correct. Richard, In the quote by EGW, she is actually referring to the Christians who had rejected the false time-setting message of 1843 and 1844. Here is the unedited original published version of the quote:
Notice that Satan answers all of the Christians' prayers. This means that, as she does in other places, she is making Satan omnipresent/omniscient--he knows about all of their prayers! And yet in her writings she denies that Jesus is omnipresent! It is truly sickening. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 28, 2006) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2561 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jeremy, What that means is, according to EGW, even though satan was thrown out of heaven, he is there now, appearing to answer prayers. WHAT BLASPHEMY!!! Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4056 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, thank you for correcting me. I confess that I can't keep the details of the IJ and the earliest "visions" all straight in my head. I do know that my conservative Adventist relatives, who know EGWs writings intimately and live by them, do believe that Satan answers the prayers of some people. They have told us that the blessings for which we praise God are actually from Satan, and they do believe Satan answers the prayers of those who have rejected truthómeaning Adventist truth. All Adventists, regardless of their historicism or liberalism, cling to Ellen at some level. They have not renounced her, and they cannot see the Bible or experience the freedom of Jesus in the same way Christians do who do not have the influence of a modern day prophet. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2232 Registered: 11-2002 |
In a thread about a year ago on Pastor O'Fills site about prayer I was told sdtan answers prayers and to be very wary of answered prayers. Jeremy, how did you get such an astounding library of EGW quotes? How can I do likewise? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1308 Registered: 10-2004 |
Susan, most of the quotes that I post I get from (an older version of) the CD-ROM of all of Ellen G. White's published writings which is produced by the White Estate. However, all of EGW's published writings are also available for free online and can be searched at: http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 28, 2006) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2005 |
The passage quoted above, "Then Jesus shewed me the difference between faith and feeling. And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to Jesus in the Holiest, and praying, Father give us thy spirit. Then Jesus would breathe on them the Holy Ghost. In the breath was light, power and much love, joy and peace. Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne. They did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, My Father give us thy spirit. Then Satan would breathe on them an unholy influence. In it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children." I'm glad this came up. I've been (and am continuing to be at an increasing intensity) warned about knowing the difference between "faith" and "feeling". Several people have taken this recent approach in trying to persuade me into realizing how decieved I am. Probably because feeling-wise, it feels so right and real, and I've been very vocal about that. I feel touched by this "new Spirit", and it's changing me. Then the follow-up warning to the one above is about recieving the "unholy influence" thinking that it's really God's Spirit. They usually finish off by saying that Satan's counterfeits are very real and close to the real thing. It would be very hard to discern. Just because I have been feeling blessed in this new life, doesn't mean that the blessings and good feelings are from God. I don't know what to say, or how to even react to this. Of course, stuff like this is always upsetting, and even scary (just in case they're right--although those fears are less frequent than they used to be). Any thoughts? Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2005 |
I guess specifically, is there Biblical proof that Satan can't answer prayers? I know that sounds so stupid (because it doesn't seem to make sense that he would), but I just have to ask it because I haven't been able to find it, and Biblical truth is really all I have to go by now. |
