| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1374 Registered: 7-2003 |
For some reason B decided to unload on me last night after dropping off Jonathan. It was his normal banter of the sabbath and "all" the commandments, etc. But he did say something 'new' which was about the video "The Spirit Behind the Church", which he knows I have. He said Ellen White's quotes are taken out of context and are switched around differently than she actually said things. He did not come up with this information from watching it, but "heard" it from someone else. Is this an old ploy just now crossing his path or a new ploy? Back when I watched the movie, I actually did look up almost all of the quotes because I anticipated him saying she never really said those things, but this is somewhat of a different twist than I've heard. So, have any of you encountered this "defense"? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 496 Registered: 8-2004  |
Yes, I have heard of it. Here are some of the SDA response sites: The Spirit Behind the Church a 'point by point' from Biblical Research Institute, a service department of the Seventh Day Adventist General Conference. Response to Video from the White Estate (says it was prepared jointly by White Estate and Biblical Research Institute, this and the former article look to be identical) A Response to the Video: Seventh-day Adventism, the Spirit Behind the Church a book, by Bob Pickle | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3901 Registered: 12-2003  |
The recent version of the video has some of the more "rabid" references removed (some of the masturbation quotes, etc.). The fact remains that, whether or not the quotes were out of context, she did teach all the things the video said she taught. Many of them were removed from circulation years ago (the booklet "An Appeal to Mothers" counseling them to restrain their children when sleeping so they couldn't masturbate, etc. was taken out of the public circulation, for example...) I agreeócontext is important. Using her quotes out of context to make a point yields, sometimes, a weak argument. Yet her "visions" were spurious, and her implications, whether out of context or not, were often indefensible. Thanks for the links, Mary. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 491 Registered: 7-2004  |
The "out of context" argument to defend EGW is used over and over again. But rarely will any SDA even try to show that the original context had a different meaning that what is portrayed. And the reason is simple, EGW made so many bizarre and error-filled statements that the immediate context of the statement doesn't alter the meaning at all. Often times SDAs will pull out another EGW quote that says something different, but all that this does is demonstrate that she talked about both sides of her mouth on subjects. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1376 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks for the info. I never know whether to respond and try to show him the truth, or if I should just shut up and let him be in his delusion. I'm thankful that God has done so much healing in my life in that regard. It has sure been a long road, however...and probably won't end any time soon, given the little one. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1228 Registered: 10-2004  |
Melissa, I think there is one instance mentioned by Bob Pickle regarding switching the words around that may be valid, but I think that's about it. I wouldn't be surprised if B owns Pickle's book (or maybe he just heard that criticism from someone). But even in that one instance, it does not change the real meaning of what EGW was saying. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 05, 2006) | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2005 |
Enlighten me please, I don't know of "The spirit Behind the Church " Video,Thanks, Peggy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1620 Registered: 3-2005 |
There has been legitimate questions raised about the wisdom of using this video--especially the earlier version--to witness to our SDA friends. All that needs to be shown is that Ellen White had a false vision of Christ entering the Holiest to finish the atonement in 1844 when the book of Hebrews said it was finished on the cross and at His ascencion. This will prove that EGW was not a true prophet of God, and that the whole basis of Adventism is based on a false vision. We don't need quotes about masturbation to witness most effectively. Once I could get my Dad to study the sanctuary doctrine, then gradually it became obvious to him, that Sabbatarianism and Ellen White were invalid. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 694 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ellen White's views on masturbation clearly reveal her false message to even the most casual reader. Her stance on masturbation is alone sufficient to disqualify her from knowing much when she declared, "Such are just as surely self-murderers as though they pointed a pistol to their own breast and destroyed their life instantly." (Taken from "An Appeal to Mothers" published in 1864 by the Steam Press of the Seventh-day Adventist Publishing Association; Battle Creek, Michigan) Most Seventh-day Adventists and their pastors are not aware and/or familiar with her two books on masturbation and marital excess published in 1864 and 1870 respectively. Furthermore, it shows her unhealthy obsession with sex in general and her intent to control one's life. All the case histories that she cites about masturbators or self-abusers went to "Christless graves" as she put it. None of those who confessed to masturbating ever gave it up. Consequently, she eventually decided not to pray for the sick because of the numerous private confessions to her that they had indeed masturbated. Why would she even ask such crazy questions of the sick or anyone else? In their introductory remarks to "An Appeal to Mothers," the Trustees of the SDA Publishing Association recommended the following: "It would perhaps be well for EVERY MEMBER OF THE FAMILY to possess a copy for his or her own personal possession." To my knowledge, as a former publishing leader, this is the ONLY Adventist book in history that EVERY MEMBER of the family should have his or her own personal copy. Apparently, this denotes that it is the most important book ever published by the SDA Church. By the way, "An Appeal to Mothers" was the first book published to partially reveal the content of Ellen White's infamous 1863 health reform vision. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 500 Registered: 7-2004 |
To me the important element of looking at the masturbation quotes isn't the blatantly false nature of these quote. Instead it is important to understand that Ellen's obsession with sex and masturbation is the basis behind her health message. There is so much SDA pride behind the "health message", even among those who dismiss Ellen's theology. But few people are willing to take an honest look at the foundation of the health message. It is about avoiding "animal passions" and "feverish blood" that will lead to sexual activity draining the body of vital forces. When we understand Ellen's health message for what it truly is, how much more meaning does 1 Tim 4 have?
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| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1031 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is simply a statement of the irony of things, but it is my understanding that when a person is properly nourished, and exercised, their sexual juices flow even more strongly. This is true even for those who dine on vegetarian diets. I once saw a short little "health" video that depicted Adam and Eve right after they had been created and God was explaining to them the wonders of their unique bodies, and he was explaining Adam's penis to him, but at the time it was not in alert mode, so Adam wasn't much impressed with it. Then God revealed to him the joy of an erection and Adam's attention was riveted. He then explained to Eve the wonders of her sexual organs and after he had them both excited he said, "Okay, now -- don't use them!" Of course the health video was pointing out some of the insanity that can come from repression, but I'm sure you all get what I'm driving at. God has gotten a bad rap when it comes to suppression of sexuality in the Christian message. Just because we are not supposed to behave as wantons, does not mean that sex is not a wonderful gift straight from God. Ellen may or may not have been dealing with a delicate subject as was expected from women of her era, but as a Messenger from God, as she claimed to be, she should have had a clearer message. It would be interesting to sit down with a round-table discussion with a group of Christian doctors and have them respond to her messages regarding sexuality. I grew up in the decade just prior to the pill, and the so-called enlightment on this topic, and the approach that was used then (hush-hush, don't talk about it maybe it will go away) was totally ineffective, too. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3914 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Belva. If Ellen were a true prophet of God, she would have had a clearer message. Instead, her attitudes and reactions really suggest that she had her own deep-seated issues with the subject. She bears the classic profile of a person who has been transgressed against by someone over whom she had no power. No proof, of course, but it's like counselors say to people struggling to overcome the marks of childhood abuse who, nevertheless, have trouble believing such things "really happened" even though they remember events: the proof is in your behavior and your chronic physical ailments and psychological trauma. Her message communicated a great deal about her in a big-picture, undetailed way. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2517 Registered: 3-2004  |
Belva, I almost rolled on the floor when I read your statement, "Then God revealed to him the joy of an erection and Adam's attention was riveted. He then explained to Eve the wonders of her sexual organs and after he had them both excited he said, "Okay, now -- don't use them!" You and I were raised in the same era and sex was never mentioned. As funny as I found the statement, I could be saddened by it as so many things can be avoided if the person is taught correctly. So many people were caught up in her teachings, including me. I tend to agree with Colleen, that IF EGW were a true prophet she would have had a clearer message. Thank God I no longer believe in her. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2006  |
Melissa I would go for showing him the truth. I belive we are here to point to the light, to Jesus. "I never know whether to respond and try to show him the truth, or if I should just shut up and let him be in his delusion. ". | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2005 |
Dennis, You asked: "None of those who confessed to masturbating ever gave it up. Consequently, she eventually decided not to pray for the sick because of the numerous private confessions to her that they had indeed masturbated. Why would she even ask such crazy questions of the sick or anyone else?" It seems to me that she inadvertently hit upon a formula that was almost foolproof to "prove" she had knowledge of hidden sins. This was still the Victorian era. Sex and masturbation were taboo. When she would ask the sick if they ever masturbated, they probably (guiltily and shamefully) admitted it. Masturbation is practiced by nearly everyone at some point in their lives. She hit on a formula that increased their guilt level and her credibility. She preyed upon the sick and vulnerable at their weakest moments. What a sicko. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 218 Registered: 2-2003 |
Another thought I had, was that maybe at one time Ellen White did pray for the sick and no-one ever got healed. Does anyone know if there are documented accounts of healing under her ministry? If no-one got healed, this would have been a good exuse which also retained her authority and placed the blame on someone else. Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3924 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, interesting point. Perhaps others know of instances where Ellen White prayed and people were healed. I actually don't know of any. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2004 |
I remember when I was researching the church and EGW and read that her frontal lobe injury was something that possibly attributed to her obsession with sex and/or religion. I think doctors said that it was common in these types of injuries to do that! What was really interesting to me was when I read about the "Great Disappointment" and the history of William Miller, he also had a bad head injury in the army I believe. He did go overboard with his theories of the end time events even though he eventually denounced it. I heard once that more people are in the insane asylum due to sex or religion. I think she had a problem with both! Bb | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1248 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is a reason that EGW gives for why many people are in the insane asylum:
Wow, the paragraph before that makes the quote even more amazing:
And elsewhere she wrote:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 12, 2006) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 221 Registered: 2-2003 |
Fascinating. So what do we do with fiction intended for teaching excellent principles, like for example, the Great Controversy? Adrian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1255 Registered: 10-2004 |
Adrian, I believe the reason EGW told her followers not to read fiction books may have been that she did not want them to discover where she stole some of her writings from.  Jeremy |
