| Author | Message | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2005 |
I need Scriptural clarification on WHO is The House Of Israel and WHO is The House Of Judah This came up in a discussion between myself and an SDA when i was attempting to show them that we dont need Ellen White to show us anything{verse11}. I have given my answer but they are pushing me for Scriptural references as to who these 2 groups of people are. Was wondering if anyone had any relevant links? Thought it best to throw this out to a wider audience. I am sure you can read this persons mind Thankyou In Anticipation | ||
| Lars Registered user Username: Lars Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2005 |
This is classic!!! It seems that whenever a point of Scripture is discussed with SDA's, their rebuttal is often "But what about this...?" Be it a verse or portion thereof. Here is an excerpt from MacArthur's 'New Testament Commentary: Hebrews' regarding the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Quote: Made with Israel In this regard, the New Covenant is exactly like the Old; it is made with Israel, with the Jews. I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (v. 8; cf. v. 10). God has never made a covenant with Gentiles, and, as far as I can see from Scripture, He never will. The New Covenant is not made with the church, as some seem to think. It is made with the same people the Old Covenant was made with: Israel. Gentiles can be beneficiaries of the New Covenant, just like they could be beneficiaries of the Old (cf. Gen. 12:3). But both covenants were made with Israel alone. Israel as a nation rejected God by rejecting His Son. But God has never rejected Israel, nor has He transferred His covenant with her to anyone else. The original and basic name of the Jewish nation is Israel. After the tragic division of the kingdom, the two parts were called Israel (the northern) and Judah (the southern). But the twelve tribes together are always called Israel, or Israel and Judah. We sometimes hear of the ìlost tribes of Israel,î referring to the fact that the northern tribes never returned from their captivity. But those who were not carried away by Assyria in 722 b.c. did become absorbed into Judah, so that the twelve tribes were still in tact. Even though they lost their tribal records, God knows who they are, and their being lost to human history does not abrogate Godís covenant with them (cf. Rev. 7:4-8). As already mentionedóand as is abundantly clear from all the New TestamentóGentiles, by faith, may share in the benefits of the gospel on an equal basis with Jews. Gentiles could share in the Mosaic covenant and even shared in the Abrahamic covenant, because all the nations of the world were to be blessed in Abraham. But none of these covenants was made with Gentiles. ìSalvation is from the Jews,î Jesus said (John 4:22). God attached no conditions or demands to the covenant with Abraham. This covenant was simply a declaration of Godís intention to bless Abraham and his descendants, and the whole world through them. In the Mosaic covenant, God attached many demands, many laws. It is often called the covenant of law. Israel was to obey, and at Sinai she agreed to obey, all of the requirements of the covenant. Many of Godís promised blessings to Israel were conditioned on that promised obedience. But before the commandments were given, He told her, ìYou shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nationî (Ex. 19:6). Her calling was not ultimately conditional on her obedience or her faithfulness. Her blessedness was. She lost many blessings because of disobedience, but she never lost the calling (Rom. 11:29). She broke all the covenant laws, but she could not break the covenant. Jews today are still breaking the covenant laws and losing the covenant blessings. And Jews today are still rejecting the New Covenant grace and losing its blessings. But with all their disobedience and with all their unbelief and rejection, they have not broken, and they cannot break, either covenant that God has made with their race. When Gentiles are saved they become descendants of Abrahamóspiritual descendants. ìTherefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ëAll the nations shall be blessed in youíî (Gal. 3:7-8). The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in each of us when we accept the single requirement of the New Covenantófaith in Jesus Christ. ìAnd if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahamís offspring, heirs according to promiseî (Gal. 3:29). For the time being, in fact, Gentiles are sharing more in the New Covenant than are Jews. But one day this will change. After Gentiles have had sufficient time to respond to the gospel all Israel will be saved (Rom. 11:26). Her day is coming. She will be grafted back into the trunk of covenant salvation (cf. Rom 11:17-24). I hope this is useful. In Christ, Larry | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3579 Registered: 12-2003  |
Anotherseeker, can you tell us in what context you're discussing this question? Just for starters, after Solomon's reign ended the nation of Israel was split into two parts. Ten tribes went north with Rehoboam as king, and they became known as "Israel". The tribe of Judah and the half-tribe of Benjamin remained with Jeroboam as king. (I hope I've got my "boam's" straight.) This "southern nation" became known as Judah.The original nation was never really united after that; never again did the full nation of Israel exist under one king. They experienced invasion and exile by the Assyrians and the Babylonians, and ultimately both Israel and Judah fell into great disarray. After the Babylonian captivity, under Nehemiah and Ezra, the temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem, but never did the whole nation flourish again. Can you give a bit of context for the question? It might be hard to provide Scriptural sources without knowing exactly what you're referring to. In prophecy the House of Judah is sometimes mentioned in a more general way to refer to the lineage of Jesus (who did descend from the tribe of Judah), and Israel, in Paul's writings, often refers to the all the descendants of the 12 tribes. Sometimes, in Romans especially, "Israel" is used to describe God's covenant peopleóincluding Gentilesówho come to Christ by faith and are considered "Abraham's seed". Other times Paul uses "Israel" to refer just to the physical descendants of Isaac, who was renamed "Israel". Colleen | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2005 |
Colleen and Larry VERY HELPFUL so far,i thank you. Basically i was told that one of the purposes of Ellen White in the SDA church is to exalt the Bible and lead people to it. My reflex reaction to that particular point was to state Hebrews 8:11 but i encouraged them to read from verse 7 to the end to look at it more holistically. They stuck on verse 8 wanting to know WHO these 2 groups were and are WE a part of that new covenant. As Colleen mentioned i said that i believed that Jesus was in the lineage of Judah and that WE are heirs of Christ and that Israel is the Jewish people. I hope this helps some! | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2005 |
Anotherseeker: Actually, you're right, but there's more. We, as Gentiles, were never part of the Old Covenant. We were NEVER under the Law. We partake of the New Covenant, not because of those verses, but because of the entire Gospel. Those verse in Hebrews (hence the name of the Book) is dealing specifically with people who were Jewish. In Galatians, for instance, Paul is talking specifically with Gentile Christians who had been living life under the Gospel--they really GOT it, and then were trying to live under the Law. He says, what in the world are you doing? WHY would you go to living under the Law when you were never even obligated to it in the first place. (my paraphrase)  Patria |
