| Author | Message | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 331 Registered: 2-2001 |
We received a publication from the Voice of Prophecy this week reaching out to those "not currently active in 'church'" (SDA). I spent a few minutes to read the testamonies from former, now current SDA's. I started to see a theme of they did not have a realationship with Jesus growing up SDA, leaving the orginization then returning to SDA and finding a relationship with Jesus. Could there be a glimmer of hope that the powers that be are beginning to understand that its a relationship and not religion that counts, or is the marketing department kicking into high gear? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2388 Registered: 3-2004  |
I can only hope some leaders may be seeing that it is a relationship with Jesus that counts, but the fact remains that the official teachings are embodied in the 28 fundamentals. Those formers who returned to the SDA church may not have looked for Jesus when they were out. I can only guess, as I cannot get inside their heads. So far, I have not received anything from them as my name was taken off the books so long ago. Diana | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 186 Registered: 4-2005  |
I happen to be personally involved in a semi-relationship via e-mail correspondence with the individual whose idea sparked this publication, which I too received. It is rather fascinating to me to discover this individual personally practices something the church has historically, (and I've not heard of any modification of this "standard") been strongly against. It is my personal impression that the primary goal behind this publication is not to encourage individuals to return or re-connect in a living union/relationship with Christ but is a "tool" with "bait and hook" to pull former members and attenders back into the habitual pattern of Adventist churchiosity. Admittedly, I do not believe that there is absolutely NO mix of genuine appeal for regeneration and renewed life in Christ behind the idea of this publicaton; but my correspondence with the founder leads me to lean heavily toward increasing church attendance, or an appeal to return to Adventism as the primary motive, NOT to a loving, living relationship with Jesus as LORD. JWD | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 332 Registered: 2-2001 |
So JWD I guess it is your vote that it is the marketing depoartment at work? That was my husband's opinion when I posed the same question to him. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2005  |
JWD, would that something this person is practicing be homosexuality? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3563 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree wtih JWD. I believe this is mostly a "numbers" game. God, of course, pursues people, and sometimes when I read the stories in that paper, I pray for the people and think that God may yet finish opening their eyes. The person who edits the magazine had a personal time of having left the church and now has come back. I believe (without knowing him at all personally as JWD does) but based on his story which I've read in the past, that he doesn't personally "live" like a textbook Adventist. His experience out there has "freed him up" to seem much more evangelical, but he's nonetheless Adventist. In this recent edition, he even entreats the reader to reconsider "coming back" by bringing upóof ALL thingsóthe potential of a Sunday Law. You can't get much more fundamental Adventist than that. Yet all this is couched in "relationship with Jesus" stories. I believe the church is worried about the hemorrhage of members. This paper is an attempt to call people back and to present a "new, kinder" face of Adventism to entice them. I notice that they never talk about the gospel or HOW to have that elusive relationship with Jesus that so many of the people are supposed to have found. The paper calls people back to the church, not specifically to Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2394 Registered: 3-2004 |
I want to cry when I hear of people being called back into the "truth" and Jesus in not mentioned and scare tactics are used. So, we continue to pray for all Adventists, that they will find Jesus Christ and have a personal relationship with Him. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 285 Registered: 6-2001  |
We got that pamphlet too. I feel like emailing them. It does say "for those not actively involved in church." We are actively involved in church, just not yours! Actually, Hannah | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 335 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hannah, I had the same thoughts---How arrigant of them to think that because one is not on their books one is not active in Christ's church. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3571 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, that was my reaction as well. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1144 Registered: 10-2004  |
This "ministry" is all about getting people back into the SDA cult. They even boldly proclaim that fact. But even if their goal was to "promote a relationship with Jesus" I ask the following questions: How can promoting a relationship with a false Jesus be promoting a true relationship? How can promoting a relationship with Jesus that is based upon a false gospel be promoting a true relationship? How can promoting a relationship plus works, etc., be promoting a true relationship? (And we are not saved by an ongoing relationship, anyway--we are saved by Jesus Christ's finished work alone, through faith in Him, which is a gift of God.) Also, a lot of Adventists seem to believe that "embracing and immersing oneself in Adventism" = "having a relationship with Jesus." (By the way, I am not saying that none of those people truly found the Jesus of the Bible--some may have. God can save whomever He wishes in whatever way He chooses.) The implication of this "reconnecting ministry" seems to be that you cannot possibly have a true relationship with Jesus outside the SDA church--and that you must come back to the SDA church. Their attitude is as if the SDA church is the only church in the world and that coming back to "the Church" is the important thing. And I guess they really do think it is the only true Christian church and that being a part of it is necessary for salvation. Sadly, what none of these people realize is that it isn't even a Christian church--and that the True Church is all those who have trusted in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 20, 2006) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2004  |
Thankfully, the Holy Spirit can lead whomever He wishes to Truth, whenever He wishes. Several years ago when I felt the pull of the Holy Spirit to try a genuine relationship with Jesus and go back to church, I didn't want to be immersed in the SDA church because of all the uneasiness I had with EGW and the IJ teaching. However, at the time, it was unthinkable for me to consider anything else. Therefore, connecting to Jesus meant at that time for me, to immerse myself as fully as possible into the SDA church and pray for understanding. Even though my questions remained unanswered for several years, I was relatively happy in the SDA church, especially since we were part of a rather evangelical one. But Jesus didn't leave me there, and I'm very thankful for that! I guess my point is that I'm not all that concerned about the detours someone may take through the SDA church in their journey, as long as that person truly has been born again. I know it's frustrating to see anyone spend time in an unhealthy system, but God will work it out in His way and in His time. While I do wish the veil would have been removed years earlier than it was, I think it would have been much more of a shock and struggle for me if it had happened years earlier. | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-1999 |
I agree totally with this statement Jeremy made, "a lot of Adventists seem to believe that "embracing and immersing oneself in Adventism" = 'having a relationship with Jesus.'" I know that's what I did. If something "chaotic" happened in the world; I started being more stringent about the way I kept the Sabbath, restricting my diet(less meat and sometimes no meat). I would pray, beg, bargain and cry to God to help me keep his commands like I should. And, I stupidly thought the gush of emotions in someway were pleasing to God. They were only temporary. As soon as the "chaos" passed I was right back "wearing the mask" and going through the adventist moves. I don't worry about the adventist who have experienced a different form of religion (baptist, methodist,etc...) as much as I worry about those who have only been exposed to adventism. I very vividly remember a conversation that I had with a girl I have known since we were 8. We were talking about the fact that neither one of us could look back and site a moment that "we believed". We concluded, since we had been "in the truth" since birth and we had never known anything else that's why we didn't have an "experience". I use the word "experience" but I don't mean some emotional ecstatics. I mean the "awe-ing" moment when the impact of the Gospel message hits you right in the face. The moment when you fully grasp---"It's all about Christ." He did it all. There is nothing I can add to it in order to help. I can fully rest in Him. And in that moment the peace that passeth all understanding washes over your being and you know, YOU KNOW you have believed in Christ as your Redeemer!! I know now, I couldn't site a moment when the grace of salvation had dawned on me because I'd never had it!!! As an adventist, I know I was an unbeliever, I was NOT saved. I was raised beneath the glow of the "lesser light" and it prevented me from searching for the "greater light" which IS salvation. I was as lost as a person who has never heard the good news at all. I know there are people in the adventist church who are saved. I have known some of them and realized they had something I didn't have--I chalked it up to personality. It wasn't personality--they had the inner glow of Christ. People say things to me now, like, "You have so much enthusiasm for Christ.", "You really have a passion for the word of God." and I realize they are seeing what I've seen in others--the inner glow of those who believe in Christ. The reason I feel most adventist are not saved is because when you speak to them there is no hope, no confidence in them. All of their being is dedicated to the Sabbath, their diet, a to-do list. Their conversation regarding spiritual things are devoid of Christ. Have you noticed how long you can speak to an adventist regarding salvation, spiritual life, etc...and the word "Christ" never crosses their lips? (My parents berated me, for not being an adventist, for over half an hour after 9/11. The words "Christ" or "God" never were included. Their key words were "the true church", the "Sabbath" and "probation closing".) I was that way as an adventist; the word Christ was an awkward one to speak. I praise God, He loved me enough to keep trying to get my attention!!! And, I praise Him that I had the few moments of a positive attitude to see the evidence of what I had embraced as the "truth" was nothing more than deception. It's all about Christ!!!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3586 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lori, what an insightful and moving post. I remember how embarrassing the word "Jesus" was. I could often say "Christ", but the name "Jesus"óthat was plain embarrassing. It really is ALL about Hm! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1145 Registered: 10-2004 |
I have posted this a couple times before, but I thought I would post it again. I find it interesting that EGW uses the word "Christ" more than twice as often as "Jesus" in her writings, while the Bible uses "Jesus" almost twice as often as "Christ." According to a CD-ROM search of EGW's published writings, EGW uses "Christ" in 71,486 paragraphs and "Jesus" in only 35,695 paragraphs. The Bible uses "Jesus" in 942 verses and "Christ" in only 522 verses. As always, EGW is totally opposite of the Bible. Not to mention the insane volume of material published by EGW (even though some of that CD-ROM is from compilations published after her death, continuing in the tradition started during her lifetime), compared to the relatively small volume of text contained in the Bible! I am convinced that the reason for so much EGW material is so people won't have much time to study the Bible, and to "overpower" what the Bible says by the sheer volume and so much repetition. If the Bible says something a few times, and EGW says something contradictory a million times, the SDA mind automatically believes the EGW lies over the Bible. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 22, 2006) | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2005 |
I received a local SDA church newsletter today, and under a section entitled "Perfume From The Pews" is part one of the story of Soo. She was raised in Laos as a Buddhist, a very sickly child, moved to Australia in her late twenties, developed breast cancer at 28 that spread throughout her body. She had an experience with an evil spirit one night, but prayed to what she called the "Second God" which was her name for Jesus. The evil spirit left, and right after she saw a blinding light that told her he was an angel of the Lord. The story says she had no fear of him even before he told her not to be afraid. They talked and he referred her to go to a SDA church in America saying that it is the true church. He said that she would hear the songs, "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" and "Rock of Ages" and that those songs were sung in Heaven. The angel told her to contact Mark Finley, Ron Halverson, Kenneth Cox, Doug Batchelor, and to give a message to John Carter to teach her about Revelation, the Time of Trouble. Matt. 24, the Lord's Prayer, and Lev. 11. She was instructed to study the King James Bible, and to translate "Steps to Christ," "The Great Controversy," and "Desire of Ages," into her own language to take to her people and teach them everything she had learned. She spoke no English, and had never heard of the EGW books, or the men the angel told her to contact. This story sounds very satanic to me. Jesus would never lead someone to get involved in the deception of EGW, and take away from His pure, simple gospel truth. I wonder what the official Adventist stance is on Soo? I think I'd file this garbage under "The Stench from the Bench". Julie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1146 Registered: 10-2004 |
Julie, You might be interested in the previous discussions we've had on here about Soo. Here are links to a few discussions: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2396.html?1114453610 http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2658.html#POST34815 Here is the continuation of the second discussion: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2646.html And here is a third discussion: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/3408.html If she did not actually experience an angel visiting her (fallen angel, of course) and the whole thing is just made up, then I have to wonder if the whole thing is a scam set up by the SDA church just to convince people to keep believing in Adventism, including EGW and the historic doctrines. At least some parts of the story certainly do sound made up--like those songs being sung by the angels in heaven, especially when those songs talk about discouragement, griefs, trials, death, etc.! Also, the thing about the "Second God" is more evidence of the spirit of polytheism (usually in the form of tritheism these days) that rules Adventism. Jesus is NOT a "Second God"! He is the One and Only God. If the SDA church claims to believe in the Trinity, then why are they promoting this "Second God" junk throughout the church?? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 22, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3607 Registered: 12-2003 |
Insightful observations, Jeremy. The convoluted problems keep showing new facets. Again, it reminds me of the "hydra" metaphor my friend used to represent Adventism. It's one organism waving many varied heads around, deceiving people about its true nature. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1449 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, I would be interested in those references to Jesus versus those to Christ in the New Testament. I am curious about the epistles of Paul. Just on my memory, it seems that Paul uses Christ equally, if not more so than Jesus. But I wonder why this is an issue. They speak of the very same person. Christ literally means "Messiah", and Jesus is Yeshua, so I am not clear why this difference is important. Maybe others have reasons why this distinction? Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1147 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I just did a search at biblegateway.com and you are correct. I knew that it was the Gospels especially that use "Jesus" a lot more than "Christ," but I didn't realize that Paul does use "Christ" more than "Jesus." So, to be fair, I will give the numbers for the NT broken up into different categories. Matthew through Acts: Christ, 88; Jesus, 672 Romans through Philemon (Paul's epistles): Christ 367; Jesus, 206 Hebrews through Revelation: Christ, 67; Jesus, 64 So, while even Paul does not quite use the word "Christ" twice as often as "Jesus," it is almost twice as often. Thanks for the correction, Stan! My feelings were that EGW seemed to not like to use the personal name of "Jesus," but instead used "Christ" as a name, rather than a title ("Messiah"). But that argument may not be valid. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3614 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, I've had the same feeling about "Christ" and "Jesus" although I'm not certain the difference between the names is significant. I, too, as an Adventist, had a feeling of real discomfort saying "Jesus", although if I had to speak of Him, I could say "Christ" with less unease. I never understood why until I began to realize that the REAL Jesus makes people uncomfortable because He represents such vulnerability. I think, however, that the name "Christ" was used moreóin SDA book titles, in EGW writings, etc. Somehowóand I have no way to prove thisóChrist felt more objective, more like the general reference to "God", than "Jesus" felt to me. Perhaps my experience was unique. I certainly can't explain it well; I just know how powerful my discomfort was. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1453 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy and Colleen, Yes, since I am on vacation this week, I had nothing better to do than count how many more times Christ was used by Paul as compared to Jesus. The results were overwhelming to me. Rarely did Paul use the name of Jesus alone without using Christ with it. In the ESV, I counted 168 more references to Christ used alone, than references to Jesus. Most of the references were to either Christ Jesus, or Jesus Christ together, but very rarely using Jesus alone. I just wish I would have trusted you to get the info for me, as I could have used the time better. (smiley). My word of caution in all of this, is that we don't create artificial barriers that really don't exist in scripture. When we accuse SDAs or EGW of something, it should be based on solid scriptural grounds than some type of feeling. If the word "Jesus" is used alone, there can always be the misunderstanding of what Jesus we are talking about, since new-agers, Mormons also speak of Jesus. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3622 Registered: 12-2003 |
What has impacted me more than anything has been to discover two things: how often Paul uses the title "Lord" with Jesus or Jesus Christ, and also to hear our pastors refer to Him as the Lord Jesus instead of merely "Jesus" or "Christ". Calling Him the Lord Jesus is a powerful statement of His authority and true position in the universe. Colleen |
