| Author | Message | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2005 |
Have any of you ever heard that if the theif would have come down from the cross that he would have lived a righteous life,from the writings of EGW? I have heard this statement in SS before but dont know the source of it. this statement always bothered me and my husband,because it was in short saying that we are judged on our behaviuor. but I am challenged from someone because he says she never said it,well it seems rather funny that i live in Mich and someone heard the same thing in a sermon in TX on the same subject over at revivalsermon.org on the subject of justification. thanks all,Dawn | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 419 Registered: 8-2004  |
I haven't heard that statement, but I have heard the argument that God knows what someone 'would have done' if they'd had the chance, and saved or rejected them based on that. That really seemed unfair and unreasonable, though it was intended to encourage people to believe that God 'thinks things thru' and does not act capriciously. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2346 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am like Mary. I haven't heard the statement, but the way I understood everything was that God knows what each person would have done, if they had the chance and were saved or rejected on that. I agree, that seemed unfair and unreasonable. Diana | ||
| Willy430 Registered user Username: Willy430 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 |
This may be slightly off topic, well there is no maybe it is, but our pastor has been giving a series of sermons on the divinity of Christ and one of the side topics was the salvation of the Roman garrison that crucified him, the story is long but there are several clues in scripture that indicate that all of those he asked a pardon for may have received the gift of salvation. This is not written in stone and he did not present it as fact, but gave some interesting historical references of what happened to the Roman army after Christ died. One frustrating thing about this type of topic is now that I am beginning to study some of the great German theologians whom Ellen copied Iím having a hard time distinguishing the total trash from a really great stolen thought, Edersheim (sp) was a person Ellen copied frequently was a brilliant man and thinker, not inspired but worthy of note. Now that I have been out of Adventisum for many years I can look back and see if the woman only had a little theological training she could have built a fairly theologically correct church, but alas the dart board method of picking and choosing created more problems than answers. Like I said off topic but I needed an excuse to poke my nose in the door since Iíve been lurking for months. Bill | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Bill! The Roman soldier's angle and history is truly intriguing! Are there any links or books your pastor might have mentioned you could refer me to? I would love to learn more about this theory. God bless and thanks for your post~ Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2348 Registered: 3-2004 |
Bill Welcome to the FAF. I am glad you are here and have come out of the lurking mode. Tell us about your self, when you are ready to do so. Diana | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 415 Registered: 1-2003  |
Bill, welcome, it is always great to see a person post and notice it says "Post Number: 1". You will be blessed as you meet many others here. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1358 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Bill to FAF! I look forward to hearing more of the interesting insights you offered above. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3462 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome, Bill! We're glad you've finally joined us. Colleen | ||
| Willy430 Registered user Username: Willy430 Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi everyone thanks for the warm welcome, Colleen I suppose I ought to apologize for pestering you so much then taking my time to post after I received my pass word, it is not for arbitrary reasons that there has been such a delay. I guess Iíll use this post as a way of introduction, phreeki asked me to come visit here since we are on good terms on the CARM boards, so Iíve been lurking to see if I had anything to offer, this is one reason I delayed, in that I donít think the level of harm I suffered was anything worth mentioning, I was baptized in 1982 in Battle Creek Mi. and went to the Jr. Academy there. Actually I started to attend church in 1974 but delayed baptism. My mom was not an SDA and I joined because I thought the Sabbath ětruthî was neat. I served as a missionary in Africa and Mexico and did all the obligatory church duties such as Sabbath school teacher, camp counselor etc. Well my world fell apart in the mid nineties my SDA wife of 16 years decided she had had enough, the church up here would not stop their incessant gossip, so I went to a church just down the road where I knew the pastor had been having marital problems but had worked them out, I figured it would be a safe place to worship while I figured out what to do. In the mean time (this is really weird and I admit it) I was listening to Paul Harvey on the radio one day when he quoted Daniel Webster, I thought to myself thatís weird I didnít know he was inspired, (you know the old English accent) well after a quick personal rebuke for being rather stupid I went home and did a web search on Ellen, needless to say that killed any plans to return to the SDA church. My favorite area of study is the divinity of Christ, itís a lost art in modern theology and has been abandoned by the very human Jesus view, of which I do not deny (Iím not a heretic) But I love to study the hard passages, and I love people to question my beliefs when they think Iím in biblical error, this makes for a better understanding of my weak points. I'll try and pin the pastor down on his source material on the garrison conversions, but I know from past questions he'll offer about 6 or 8 obscure volumes and tell me to go read for days. Bill | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2005 |
Nice to "see" you here, Bill! Brian (EverSearching) | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2005 |
Bill Im curious are you still in BC area? Welcome and nice to have you here. Mary do you know where that staement is found? Dawn | ||
| Willy430 Registered user Username: Willy430 Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 |
Nope I'm an Alaskan now I left BC in 1983. I used to live in Level Park. Thank you it's nice to be here. Ooh the lurker is up to 3 posts!!! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 964 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Willy, I've been enjoying your posts at CARM and am so glad you are coming here to expand our approaches to things. I especially enjoy your sense of humor, and the way you so deftly handle some of the folks over there who take themselves altogether too seriously. Welcome! Now, back to your initial question. I know that Hollywood had a good time in their epics discussing the lives of the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus. Great discussion point because they were just following orders. They didn't know one way or the other who Jesus was. Can we hold them guilty for what they did? Jesus forgave them, and he forgave the mob for what they were doing. Who are we to hold a grudge. | ||
| Willy430 Registered user Username: Willy430 Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh goodie I love these kinds of discussions, note disclaimer this is bible based speculation, no more. You say they did not know who he was this is not purely correct. They did not know at the beginning! Look at what they said at the end Matt 27:54 now let your imagination ponder vs. 52 who were raised? Righteous Jews, who was in charge of killing Jews the garrison in charge of crucifixions, do you think the Romans saw resurrected Jews whom they had crucified, did they fear greatly, only because of the earthquake? Lets go a little further back in time Christ is being led through the streets of Jerusalem he has just been beaten to a pulp, most men die long before the cross, but he stops on the way Luke 23:27 and gives advise and a parable, who stops and preaches to the crowds in that condition? Why did the Romans permit him to stop. At the cross the Romans offer him a gall mixture, this was not out of kindness! This mixture was given to control prisoners, to make them docile and easy to manage. Christ tastes it then refuses it, then of his own will submits to the cross. I submit that never in the thousands of crucifixions had this ever happened. What do you think would happen to a man who refused the gall, hammer to the jaw gall poured down the throat. Remember the situation in Gethsemane when the soldiers fell back at his word. Christ was in total control and they knew it by the end. Here is a final tid bit when the Jews offered him spoiled wine this was not a kindness either, it was meant to extend his life, he accepted it then promptly died at exactly 3:00 P.M. the very moment the sacrificial lambs throat was cut by the High Priest. I think it very likely the garrison will be redeemed, if God forgave them who will condemn? I canít prove it but it sure makes you wonder. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1365 Registered: 3-2005 |
Wolfgang, I find your opening post in this thread quite interesting, that you heard EGW said that the thief on the cross would have lived a righteous life if he would have come down off that cross. This brings up a fascinating point that I heard one teacher on the radio bring up. And the question is this; On what basis was the thief on the cross saved? Why was one thief saved, and the other one not saved? Was the one saved because God could foresee that if the thief had a chance to live, he would live a righteous life? (That was Ellen's as well as John Wesley's belief). Or was one thief saved because he was able to choose Christ? Was there some good in the one thief that was not present in the other? Just some intresting questions to ponder. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 416 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, can anyone give a reference where Mrs. White said that the thief on the cross would have lived a righteous life if he would have come down off that cross? I'm not saying she didn't but I don't remember reading it?? richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1368 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard, Actually I can't give a reference. But the classical Wesleyan-EGW view of election is that God predestinates or elects sinners based on His foreknowledge of whether a person will accept Christ on their own free will, and whether they will live a holy life. That is just the basic Arminian view. The Reformed view of the thief on the cross is that God, before the foundation of the world, chose that particular thief to be saved according to His sovereign will and purpose. 2 Tim. 1:9 could not be clearer "...who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace..." That thief was saved solely on the basis of God's sovereign will and good pleasure. His spiritual eyes were opened by the Holy Spirit, even after that particular thief had been hurling insults earlier. The thief could not exercise his own free will. God was the sole agent in saving that thief. After he was born again, it was then he could say to Jesus 'remember me when you come in your kingdom'. The usual response will be among most Christians that the one thief chose Christ, and the other one rejected Christ. The gospel of grace says that he was chosen by God apart from any merit. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 966 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Willie, I should have been more clear. The soldiers didn't know who Jesus was at the start, but they were obviously clear who he was when that awful day was finished. Like you, I've always been fascinated with that group of people who came out of their graves when Jesus did. One would assume they were the "wave sheaf" that Jesus took bodily to heaven with him when he ascended. I had an Adventist minister friend who said they were the 24 elders mentioned in Revelation. Interesting that Matthew says there were men and women that came out of those broken graves when Jesus was resurrected. No prejudice in heaven! Hannah, this is a salute to you... Equally, Belva | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3472 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, not too long ago I realized (Matthew 27) that those people who were resurrected came alive at the time of Jesus' DEATH--it immediately follows the tearing of the curtain in the temple and the earthquake. It says that they came to life, "and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people" (v. 53). I know this is a minor detail, but I can't quite get my mind around what this resurrection was about. Jesus' death, obviously, restored the way for humanity to be united with God. Clearly something cosmic and astonishing happened in the heavenly realms when Jesus died. That curtain being torn told us at least that much. But this resurrectionówas it a Lazrus-type resurrection? Jesus had not yet been resurrected with His glorified body--does this mean that these holy people were resurrected to mortal life? The Bible doesn't say, and I can't quite figure it out. Clearly, though, their appearance, whether mortal or immortal (and I tend to think it must have been mortalóalthough I'm not married to this idea!óbecause Jesus hadn't broken the bonds of death yet and become the firstfruits from the dead) must have been a shocking and powerful witness to the significance of Jesus and His death. Clearly these people's resurrections and subsequent appearances validated Jesus' identity as God, the source of life. Such mystery... Colleen |
