| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2005 |
I want to share with you a concern of me for a long time: every institution has rules and regulation. Every church has regulaments. My folks at sda church accused me of breaking the rules of speech, saying that if they will go and preach about Sabbath in an evangelical church, they will be invited to leave the place, because they didn't respected the rules of this church. They say that I ahve no right to disturb them, to put questions or speak about Sabbath in Christ because it's against what the church teaches, and it breaks the internal rules. Where is the religious liberty now? I don't have the right to speak about what I consider to be truth? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 278 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jackob, I would say, "let them go preach about the Sabbath in a Sunday church". Tell them to do it, they need to win people over for the Sabbath so that they will be saved! Actually, it would be good for them to try and do this, they might get a warmer reception than they think and then they might follow the truth. Not a good example they gave you. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3368 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good question, Jackob. It's amazing, isn't it, how the issues of Adventism become increasingly clear as one moves away from it? God is leading you! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jackob said:
What church are you referring to? Are you talking about dialoging in a Sabbath School class at an SDA church, or just discussing beliefs with your parents outside of church? Most adult Sabbath School classes I have attended seemed really dead. They study specific questions and answers and often rely on Ellen White for additional "enlightenment". Rarely do they read complete chapters in the Bible without copious references to Ellen White interpretation -- or the other extreme of anything goes (such as no Trinity any more). I just don't see any real Bible Study. And that can't change as long as they put Pope Ellen's interpretation between them and their Bibles. The fundamentalists in the crowd can't allow it either. Can you imagine them really studying Hebrews 4 in Sabbath School class without any Ellen White or preconceived EGW thinking or influence? Rules for group study are, in my opinion, a good thing so that one person doesn't monopolize the study with their own private interpretation. Is this what you meant? Gilbert | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 97 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yes, it's about Sabbath School. I agree with the rules maked to assure that no person will monopolize the study with their private interpretation. But when someone challenges their interpretation, especially when it's one of Ellen White, they accuse the person to transgress their rules of SS class. It seemns that the unwritten rule is not to disturb their status quo. They are not open to dialogue, considering that it's a good opportunity to let the word of God speak, if they believe that are right. This makes me doubt that they really believe that they have "the truth" I agree that nobody has the right to monopolize the discussion, but everybody has the right to speak his mind, and give the interpretation of Scripture he consider to be truth. If you don't allow children to ask unconfortable questions, or to say what they think (of course, respectfully), how can you teach them? It's suppose to be a school, adventists expects people to say what they believe and to be honest in what they say. But, when it comes to reality, they encourages hypocrisy. Everybody has the right answers, everybody knows the answers, and the discussion is boring. On the other way, they seems to recognize the fact that the SS is boring, and people are uninterested, they maked appeals from the pulpit to the people to come to the SS. But don't allow real discussions. Colleen, you are the moderator of this forum, I suppose. How you treated those adventists who posted here and tried to argue for adventist doctrines? I'm interested, because also on the official adventist forum here in Romania, they treated very badly the formers who posted on their forum. One moderator said that on every forum they will be banned if they disagree with the beliefs of those who owns the forum. I want to give FAF as proof that he is wrong, so I need more information. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1282 Registered: 7-2003  |
Jackob, perhaps you should ask for a written list of the rules if it is a class environment...then you'll have some footing to prove or disprove whether you're breaking them. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 325 Registered: 2-2001 |
It sounds like they may be scared of what they might find. Someone who is well grounded is not shaken by questions but sees it as an opportunity to educate. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 937 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jackob, I will answer that when Adventists come to our forum they are treated with respect, their opinions are considered, and if we disagree with them we say so. They are never banned, at least not so far as I've been able to see, even when they have gotten abusive. In most cases they write us off and stop posting once they realize that we will not be brought back into Adventism by their use of pre-programmed questions, answers, and proof texts. It seems to me that you are moving your Sabbath School well outside of their comfort zone. Adventism is somewhat robotic, and does not allow for free thinking, and open scriptural study, no matter how often they say they do those things. In order for Adventism to stay as it is, it most not be questioned. It must not be investigated. Most of all it must not be shaken from its slumber. It sounds like you have disturbed their repose. Keep it up! Paul would go the the synogogues in new towns and would preach Jesus every Sabbath. At first they didn't know what was happening, but eventually the leaders of those synogogues would realize that they were no longer on familiar ground so they would throw him out. Thankfully, during that time the people who were meant to hear the Gospel had heard it and were now willing to leave their comfort zone and follow Christ. May God be with you as you disturb their peace. Belva | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 403 Registered: 8-2004  |
According to the welcome page: "This forum is intended for former Seventh-day Adventists, those Seventh-day Adventists who are seriously studying the validity of their beliefs, and their friends and families." As such, I've understood that SDAs who are NOT studying the validity of thier beliefs', and who just want to 'straighten FAF out' are not particularly encouraged to join. That said, from my experience, differences of opinion have definitely been discussed here, and with respect and thoughtfulness. I'm sure Colleen will have some input on this as well. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3372 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, Belva and Mary explained it well. In the eight years (I can't believe it's been that long!) the forum has been online, there have been perhaps three or four people we have had to ban, and those bans occurred because they became overtly and persistently abusive. As Mary said, we do try to limit membership in the sense that we don't encourage people to join if they're just into arguing theology or trying to "fix" us. We can't always know, though-- The real reason this forum has the tone it does is that we pray continually for God to be present among us all and to protect it from evil and disruption. The Holy Spirit really does work in powerful ways through the members. I am sometimes overwhelmed at the sense of God's presence I feel in the discussions, at the insight and caring and love everyone shows to one another. And if someone gets disruptive, as Belva said, the members tend to stay cool and focussed and grounded in Scripture. These things tend to take care of the problems, and eventually the disrupter usually stops posting. I give God the credit for being among us and for glorifying Himself through everyone here. Colleen | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 175 Registered: 4-2005  |
If one is honest, one can see a spirit prevalent within all sectarian groups or sects which, in part at least, mimicks that which attempted to silence the voices of Truth in pre-reformation days and continuing thereafter. Truth must always be supreme, sovereign, "the last word," because it's source and supply is Jesus Christ Himself. (Jn 14:6). Truth attacks the strongholds of especially sectarian organized religion with its false menu offering "security." Ken Wilber has a reputation for being the "Einstein of consciousness research." In his monumental book "No Boundary" he writes about what he calls "tension blocks." "These blocks were, and still are forms of resistance to particular emotions." He refers to these conscious blocks or resistance as "muscular cramps" ~ i.e., a "conscious muscular cramp of resistance." When truth is spoken, a sectarian mind set feels the foundation of it's security shaken, and it automatically goes into a "cramp" of resistance. That person can express the most distorted reasonings as a defense mechanism. Moral Relativism takes over, which says, "Believe in what you believe and want to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary." Responses come forth,like, "I see it this way." "I may not be able to explain it but I 'know' God's true church cannot be wrong." Of course random statements such as "Ellen White says....." are mis-quoted and offered as the final word to defend their position, which inwardly they feel shaking. "If you take this away from me, what can I then believe?" Christ is not enough. Scripture alone is not enough. They must have a system and a false unity of other like believers to support their position ~ "Can all these people be wrong?" Snuff out Truth. It has been the same story in history, from the murder of prophets of old, to the persecution of the early church, down through the pre and post-reformation time, to 2006 with the war against Christianity, against Christian belivers, Bible believers, and all who take the name of Jesus as their Truth in all things. Until you discover the authentic Gospel couched in sola Scripture, sola faith, sola Christ your only (false) security lies in man's organized belief systems. Surrounded by others who continue to chant "Our message IS the truth," the warmth of such bodies pressing around you lulls you into a false sense of security, which can still the inward corner of emptiness which whispers, "In HIM (alone) we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28) If it looks like gluten, smells like gluten, tastes like gluten, feels like gluten, it's gluten! But one taste of the True Bread of Life will reveal the true Reality (Col 2:17). JWD | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3377 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great insights, Jess! Colleen | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi everyone I don't know how to start a new post, but 'Religious Liberty' seems appropriate to my situation. A few weeks ago I sent a letter to the SDA church I had been a member of for six years asking them to remove my name from their books. I have not been comfortable with some of the teachings, not being able to find them in the Bible, and quickly found that some questions are not encouraged. About a year ago I got a computer and started investigating the SDA church and Ellen White. I then wrote a very polite, but firm letter stating my reasons for leaving the church. Today I got a reply from the pastor in the form of an e-mail stating there is a book he will make available for me to read "Graffiti in the Holy of Holies" by C. Goldstein, which should answer some of my concerns. Other than that he wants to wait to talk with me until I have finished my treatments. I have advanced cancer and have been getting chemo/radiation treatments. It seems some folks think that this situation is having an affect on my good judgement. I know I am venting, but leaving the church was not easy for me. It meant leaving friends behind. Now it seems, my resignation has not been accepted and my name remains on the books. I do not know where to go from here. A long time ago I gave my life to Jesus. I trust Him to get me through this as He has gotten me through so much already. Pleas remember me in your prayers. And thanks for this forum. It has helped me to know that I am not alone. toria | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 287 Registered: 5-2004 |
Toria Welcome to the forum! Praise God that He has called you to Him and that He is with you at this time in your life! Not speak for everyone, as Iím sure theyíll all chime in eventually, but leaving the church can be more complicated than youíd imagine. Amazingly people start to think that you donít know what youíre talking about or asking. In a good friend of mineís case, even tried to convince her that even if she didnít believe a single thing the church taught she was safer keeping her name still on the books. Iíve read most of Goldsteinís book. Iím sure somebody else will have a better review of it, but mostly itís all smoke and mirrors. Just keep reading your BibleÖthatís where God will lead and teach you! You will be in my prayers! BlessingsÖ  | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2004 |
Toria, Welcome to FAF forum. You are among friends and fellow believers here. When I sent my resignation letter in 4 months ago, within a week I received a polite reply stating that although the board did not agree with my decision, they respected my right to make it. I feel this is how it should work everytime. My letter was delivered to the Head Elder the day before the Board meeting, and I supplied a copy for each board member. They didn't have much of a choice but to deal with it. I posted my letter on this forum back in Nov 05 under "Letter to my church and family". It has started a dialogue that continues to this day among many in the local Adventist congregations and among several interested, in some of the non-adventist churches. I have been surprised to see the Lord's leading as many have started to read and study. May God send His healing hand to heal your physical struggles, as He has clearly led in your quest for spiritual wholeness and integrity. I will be praying for you. Randy | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2005 |
Toria, I'm glad you shared your situation. First of all, I have noticed that there are times people can be disrespectful to women just because there is an assumption that your wishes don't count. I never believed this until my husband and I built a house and I had to go to places predominantly run by men. I'd ask for such and such part and they stand there telling me what I really wanted was such and such and I'd have to stand my ground and explain that no, because of certain parts were specked out by the engineer, etc... I really needed this clamp or that truss, etc.. Secondly, Adventists have this assumption that one could never possibly study their way out of the church because they believe their doctrine is far superior to those unstudied evangelicals. I will pray for you and trust He will give you BOLDNESS YOU'VE NEVER KNOWN AND PEACE BEYOND UNDERSTANDING. A new prayer-friend, Lisa | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 751 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hey, SDA aren't the only ones with problems...look what the Southern Baptists did to my pastor. The guy doesn't speak in tounges but we have someone in our congregation who has at least twice now (I witnessed it once) and I felt it was from God. My pastor only said we are not to condemn what we do not understand. Plus he teaches the inerrency of the bible, so I think he was guilty by association with this other guy. Here is the link: http://www.abpnews.com/803.article | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3398 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dear Toria, I'm so glad you're here. I read that particular book of Goldstein's, and it was more a character attack on Dale Ratzlaff than it was a defense of the investigative judgement. He used the typical Adventist arguments without providing conclusive Biblical support (because there isn't any). I had a very hard time finishing the book because of its condescending tone and it's "smoke and mirrors" arguments, to borrow Esther's excellent description. I suspect that the excuse that the pastor wants to wait until after your treatments are over is an excuse to avoid discussing these things with you. If he truly felt confident that he could present you with Biblical support and confident assurance of Adventism's claims, he would not hesitate to come see you. After all, if there were ever a time when one needs the solid assurance of God's presence and will, it's when one is physically suffering! But God is with you. He is walking with you through this time of your life, and He is revealing Himself and the comfort and assurance of His word at a time when you need it more than ever before. He is completely faithful. I will also be praying for you. We all look forward to "talking" more with you! Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2005 |
Pheeki, If Scott Camp believes in the inerrency of the bible why would he hire somebody who doesn't to teach/preach monthly? It seems like he set him self up for guilt by association. | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Toria, You will find a lot of help here. I have and continue to. I will be praying that your chemo and radiation treatments go smoothly for you, and that you have the peace of God which passes all understanding. Julie |
