| Author | Message | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 241 Registered: 2-2005 |
I don't know if anyone has read Clifford Goldstein's truly bizarre piece in the latest Adventist Review but it's worth a look. Ironically, the article is titled "Objective Truth". I'll hold my comments until some others have had a chance to read and comment. Here's the link: http://www.adventistreview.com/issue.php?issue=2006-1503&page=17&PHPSESSID=85372ff4cb3c9bb97651279207f55004 Enjoy. Heretic | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2005 |
Next thing he'll be writing about how he held up an 18 pound Bible for 30 minutes while in vision. This article is in the Adventist Review? It is positively strange. I'm glad I quit getting the Review a while back. This is like the adult version of the drivel they crank out for the children's Sabbath School classes. Gilbert | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1262 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic, I get this strange feeling that Goldstein doesn't really believe what he is professing. There is something about him that just isn't real. Read the current Adventist Today, and previous issues where he has been interviewed. He always gives inconsistent answers. I think he might be actually very conflicted, and our prayers should be that he will some day admit the error he is propagating. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 917 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Then thereís the Ellen White corpus. Putting aside a million and one questions about the royal mess weíve made in presenting her work, or two million and one questions about the exact nature of Mrs. Whiteís role, I still donít know how anyone, rationally and logically looking at the objective evidence, the bulk of the writings themselves--placed against the background and witness of her life--could conclude anything other than that she had a prophetic gift. "Demonic possession? Insanity? Deception? Are any of these options a logical and rational explanation for someone who, among other things, described Pilateís wifeís dream (The Desire of Ages, p. 732), depicted life on other planets (Early Writings, pp. 39, 40), and detailed Satanís jealousy of Christ in heaven (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pp. 17-23)? Just given the facts, however, none seems to be the best explanation. Instead, the prophetic gift does." Okay, the above is a quote from Goldstein. He's saying Ellen is proven as a prophet because she can make up a story about Pilates wife (or more likely borrow a story someone else wrote about Pilates wife), and describe life on other planets (unverifiable), and Satan's jealousy for Jesus (that's a stretch, more likely it was rebellion, not jealousy). How does any of that prove a prophetic gift? What bunk! Who believes this stuff? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 918 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Then thereís the Ellen White corpus. Putting aside a million and one questions about the royal mess weíve made in presenting her work, or two million and one questions about the exact nature of Mrs. Whiteís role, I still donít know how anyone, rationally and logically looking at the objective evidence, the bulk of the writings themselves--placed against the background and witness of her life--could conclude anything other than that she had a prophetic gift. "Demonic possession? Insanity? Deception? Are any of these options a logical and rational explanation for someone who, among other things, described Pilateís wifeís dream (The Desire of Ages, p. 732), depicted life on other planets (Early Writings, pp. 39, 40), and detailed Satanís jealousy of Christ in heaven (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pp. 17-23)? Just given the facts, however, none seems to be the best explanation. Instead, the prophetic gift does." Okay, the above is a quote from Goldstein. He's saying Ellen is proven as a prophet because she can make up a story about Pilates wife (or more likely borrow a story someone else wrote about Pilates wife), and describe life on other planets (unverifiable), and Satan's jealousy for Jesus (that's a stretch, more likely it was rebellion, not jealousy). How does any of that prove a prophetic gift? What bunk! Who believes this stuff? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2112 Registered: 11-2002 |
I read the above article. After reading the first paragraph where he says, how could anyome not see she had the gift of prophecy I was already thinking just the opposite, how could anyone think of her as anything more valid than a hoax. I guess it's all in the understanding of the reader. About visiting other planets, well I saw a couple on t.v. last week who told their stories of being abducted and taken to other planets. They even had scars to prove it. And, describing Piolate's wifes dream, that's not a Bible story as EGW tella it so at best it's fiction. It's just a way spun article. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 424 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yeah, 'Cliffy' (as he's sometimes called over on ATomorrow) sometimes gets out there a ways. I have to hand it to the guy though, he's the only big wheel at the GC that would even dare to wade into the ATomorrow forum. Clifford shows up from time to time and promptly gets jumped on for his liberal politics along with his conservative Adventism. I'd guess he wrote this after one of those trying episodes over on ATomorrow. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 743 Registered: 1-2003 |
I thought the article was a bit schizophrenic. He jumped around so much I couldn't follow...what was it really about? I think Riverfonz is right on with his assessment! Let's pray for him...me think he protesteth too much! | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2004 |
After reading the above editorial I can only assume it was written "tongue in cheek" and with a "twinkle in his eye".It does not appear given the prophetic proofs he used that he was even trying to be taken seriously. I think the Review must be trying to add a little humor ala Jon Stewart or Andy Rooney. In Canada we have a political commentator named Rex Murphy. Rex has a great ability to use words that most people have never heard of. It sure does sound like he knows what he is talking about, but often at the end of the piece I am sure he is more confused than we are. Mr. Goldstein seems to have this same gift. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2005 |
Actually, what is so unreal about this? After all, as an Adventist, I was a sell out. The church says, we believe... I mean if you are a sell out for a rock musician or a rapper, their true followers hunger for their lyrics and embrace the words of new songs regardless of whether they are full of error. If those words make political, moral or untruthful, vulger statements, a true follower will remain loyal. The rock or pop group knows they are making money, marketing and have power and can make their most faithful gurus do anything or believe anything with just a flurtatious blink of an eye. The rockers or rappers don't think they are doing anything wrong, much like many false religious leaders. Religious leaders who turn untruths in to truths, are no different. Mind control works. And it isn't just used in religion. American society is saturated in it. However, the most potent mind control comes from the religious counterfeits and deviant, abusive rappers that promote violence. I posted the mind control test on another thread. Once a person is open to one deception, more will come. The bible warns us of this. Without the FULL ARMOR OF GOD, we, as Christians, can sell out on some foolish thing. Anyone here buy timeshares??? Anyway, our society is filled with deception and everyone is sold out on something, including Christians. I'm sold out on Christ and will stay in His word for protection. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3322 Registered: 12-2003  |
Goldstein's piece didn't make sense to me. I actually had trouble finding a consistent thread of logic. He didn't explain how that odd "double" he met answered his prayer for a sign. What relationship did meeting that person have with verifying God's existence? For one so bright who fancies himself "logical", I find his assertions about Ellen completely pointless. He used examples that even he has to know are foolish. The whole thing seems disjunct and condescending. Only the unexamined "true believer" would buy it. Stan's observation about his needing prayer resonates with me. For some odd reason, years ago, before we made our final "break" with the church, I was convicted (can't really tell you now what even brought it on) that I needed to pray for Clifford Goldstein to become honest and to embrace the true gospel. I agree, Stan, that his article is "fake-y" and unconvincing--as if it springs from a conflicted heart. I'm sure there are huge issues of pride and shame if he entertains ideas that he might have been wrong... Thanks for the reminder; I'll begin praying for him--I'll put his name on the "prayer wall" here in the office... Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2005 |
I agree; Clifford Goldstein's articles are usually more coherent and thought out. This article seemed so random, and he doesn't really follow through with his thoughts. My first feeling, before reading everyone else's thoughts, was that he was trying to convince himself, rather than others. I know from my own experience that when you try convincing yourself of something that just isn't adding up, the arguments get more and more disjointed. Next thing you know, you're thinking, "Heck, I don't know what I'm talking about..." You can rationalize your way into a lot of confusion. | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2000 |
You know what's sad? As a naive, brained-washed Adventist, I would have read this nonsense article by Clifford Goldstein, and beat myself up for being too stupid to comprehend his theology/reasoning, which I now can glance at and pick apart in less than a New York minuite. The Clifford Goldstein I knew was arrogant and enjoyed the high esteem the GC placed on him. Oh they craved his prolific writings, his "knowledge" and "scholarship" so called. He was prized Adventist possession they could not do without him. When Clifford conducted a few seminars at the SDA churches I attended back then, he would berate and lambast the stupid, lazy folks who could not defend the doctrines of the SDA church and belief in Ellen White. He strongly warned folks they should never, never, never leave the church even if they heard he's left. Maybe that explains his vacillating, contradictory stance. To me it doesn't seem like much has changed. His style and reasoning sound the same to me. I'd compare him to John Kerry, the junior Senator, from MA. He doesn't know, he doesn't know and makes a fool of himself. In Goldstein's case though, it's worst. His illogical nonsense, to some extent do have eternal consequences. Seems like he did impress me, doesn't it? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2005 |
Actually, it does make sense. It is intelligent and well thought out. What he is saying is the bulk of the evidence is for Ellen White, for believing in God and for believing in the Church Message. He writes: Putting aside a million and one questions about the royal mess weíve made in presenting her work, or two million and one questions about the exact nature of Mrs. Whiteís role, I still donít know how anyone, rationally and logically looking at the objective evidence, *** THE BULK OF THE WRITINGS THEMSELVES *** --placed against the background and witness of her life--could conclude anything other than that she had a prophetic gift. He is saying that none of these are the best explanation - Demonic possession? Insanity? Deception? Are any of these options a logical and rational explanation for someone who, among other things, described Pilateís wifeís dream (The Desire of Ages, p. 732), depicted life on other planets (Early Writings, pp. 39, 40), and detailed Satanís jealousy of Christ in heaven (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pp. 17-23)? Just given the facts, however, none seems to be the best explanation. Instead, the prophetic gift does. But the prophetic gift and the overall way she lived her life is the proof. In short, besides the personal experience, I have powerful reasons to believe in God and in our message. And, given the objective nature of those reasons, so do you. It is clear logic for Adventism. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2258 Registered: 3-2004  |
I do not mind admitting that he made no sense to me. Nothing was proved to me from the Bible, as that is all I will listen to. Just because EGW described something, does not mean it happened. She could have made it up, her companion could have shown her or she could have copied some one else's words. It in no way shows that she was a prophet, to me. This article just does not make sense to me. Diana | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-1999 |
"It is clear logic for Adventism." That says it all!!! Take something from scripture that is verifiable (prophecies from Daniel 2,7,8) and compare them to the something which can not be verified (EGW's version of what Pilate's wife might have dreamed, Satan's jealousy in heaven). For one thing, the details in Daniel were told BEFORE they happened. EGW told them AFTER the events, how is that prophecy? What's so amazing, even if her stories are completely accurate, if her "vision" or "prophecy" didn't occur until after the event. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2116 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lynne, I take it you don't much take to rap. I think I own every cd put out by oh, what's his name? He apparently was murdered but I don't believe he was. I think he's still alive. I especially enjoy listening to Afro Man. Gosh, every time we put his cd's on at my house we all get to laughing so hard our seams are about to burst. Some of the rap artists I don't much care for, it may be the trashy lyrics or the voice or the instraments used but I am very selective. It's the fellow who calls himself Machavelli that I like. I foregot his real name. When I go to church or when I study the Word of God then I want the stright Word of God. When I listen to music I want to be entertained and often even amused. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 252 Registered: 10-2005 |
Susan, You are right, I'm not into rap. I lean more towards the stuff on PBS that many of the older people like from the 60's and 70's. Though I do have an older brother who likes rap, we just don't get into it in our home. Lately I've been listening to more Christian music. But of course, it is softer and leans more towards what the older people like. Lynne | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2120 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lynne, Sadly all my cd's were stolen from the car several monthas ago so I now only have a few cd's. I am so easy when it comes to music. I don't much care for rythym and blues and I don't like jazz at all or that 30's type of music and dreary weepy sounding stuff. I had a lot of cd's by John Michael Talbot and of course they were stolen so I'll have to get more by him. I especially like bluegrass, folk music, any form of folk-folk Christian, folk such as Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan, etc. The very first real life concert I ever went to (O.k. brace yourself because this is sure to give away my age.) weas Peter, Paul and Mary. I had a lot of traditional Hawaiian music, a lot country/western and alot of real good getdown old fashioned rock and roll, Elvis, Arertha Franklin, the Doors, Jimi Hendrix and of course some reggae. I had some gosple cd's by Johnny Cash, Elvis and Areatha Franklin. They were all stolen. Right from the front seat of my car while the car was parked right in my own driveway and I was home but didn't notice a thing. Woe is me. I also have a cd by the St. Olaf Chior. I LOVE chior music! I even had some by Rosemary Clooney and Tennessee Ernie Ford. Getting cd's is a fun hobby. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1270 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, Just to comment on all your various music tastes which are very interesting, and sorry you lost all your CDs. I grew up listening to Tennessee Ernie Ford. My strict SDA parents did approve of his hymns albums. However when it came to the Spirituals album with songs like "Noah Found Grace in the Eyes of the Lord, then they thought that was over the line. But then at PUC I became a "Grateful Dead" fan or a deadhead, and we snuck off campus to go to several "Dead" concerts. Bmorgan, I can't resist your line above about John Kerry. What a fool he made of himself on the senate floor yesterday when Samuel Alito was confirmed. He was quoted using every expletive in the book. Then he got on the "Today" show this A.M. and even Katie Couric made him look like an absolute fool! Sorry for the political diversion here, but when even common decency is missing among the Teddy Kennedy's and John Kerry's of the world, I believe we need to expose it--but probably belongs on another forum. Stan |
