| Author |
Message |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 441
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 12:13 am: |     |
No, you can't reform a cult. It's like trying to fix a crooked house that's ready to fall down. If you try to fix one doctrine, that affects another doctrine which leads to a domino effect and you wind up with a heap of rubble. I have no doubt that the SDA leadership know that and that's partly why they fight so hard to maintain a status quo. There's too much money, too many jobs and too many lifestyles at stake. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 6:31 pm: | |
I've said this before, but I agree with Colleen about Goldstein. I don't believe he necessarily believes his talking points. Maybe I am naive, but I would like to believe that Goldstein actually believes that statement Heretic posted. Maybe, he is just very conflicted. Let us pray that Clifford Goldstein will become " one of those bright lights that will go out" as Ellen White used to say about everyone who left the church. I believe if he is truly born again and is honest, we might see some wonderful surprises in the future. With God all things are possible.
Stan |
Lars
Registered user
Username: Lars
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 3:15 pm: | |
Our daughter forwarded an email to us earlier this week which included Goldstein's Review article titled "Deductions". My reaction was, and is, that the substance of the article indicates trembling and trepidation among SDA's. Especially in the leadership!!!
What do you think?
Larry |
Cy
Registered user
Username: Cy
Post Number: 46
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 7:17 pm: | |
It's interesting that Goldstein acknowledges the situation. Could he be giving voice to the current state of thought among the leadership? And that they're searching for ways to deal with honest, inductive study of the Bible? Could it possibly lead to a reform like that in the WWCG? Maybe I'm too jaded to hope that it could be possible, but I do know that all things are possible with God.
Guy |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 440
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:47 am: | |
Larry, is it possible to post the text of Goldstein's article? I went to the Review site and found that I need to subscribe to get an article online. In the past you could download pdf's of the Reviews.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
|
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 444
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:10 am: | |
Guy, I'd be willing to bet that very soon there is going to be a sabbath school quarterly teaching 'The Adventist way to study the Bible'. They will acknowledge the problem, but then they will take it back by saying (in effect), that those who leave for theological reasons really didn't understand how to correctly study the Bible. |
Lars
Registered user
Username: Lars
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:24 am: | |
Hi Richard,
The article is posted above by Heretic. It is very interesting!
In Christ,
Larry |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1122
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:46 am: | |
Cy, I suspect Goldstein's comments are coming out of his first and second hand experiences with a few formers as well as his struggle with a friend who was on the fence for quite sometime. I've had some indirect contact and believe that while Goldstein most definately does not agree with our view of scripture or the covenants, he at least recognizes that we are being driven by doctrinal concerns (however illegitimate and misguided he may deem those concerns to be).
Chris |
Cy
Registered user
Username: Cy
Post Number: 47
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:46 am: | |
Speaking of Sabbath School lessons, I kind of missed out during the Sabbath School series that studied most/all of the books of the Bible because it was while I was "apostate" at the time. I wonder how they got through Galatians or Acts chapter 15? :-)
At the Former Adventist conference, I was so struck by the principle of inductive Bible study at the beginning of Elizabeth Inrig's presentation! Everything changed for me when I "accidentally" started studying the Bible inductively instead of deductively back in 1993. I continued this approach for the several years I presented sermons in the SDA church. I was kind of surprised when I realized a couple of years ago that I was tending towards presenting the true gospel and not exactly matching up with the ideology of the SDA church! However, given the twisted SDA defintion of many gospel terms, I'm not sure if I had much impact on the audience...
Guy
(edited to fix the spelling of Galatians - I always get it wrong the first time!)
(Message edited by cy on March 11, 2006) |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 1:37 pm: | |
The article sounded very good, until he said this: "Then for some reason.....once these folks discover justification by faith...they'll soon conclude that the new covenant defines violation of all Ten Commandments--except the fourth--as sin."
It's the same old thing--the "Seventh-day Adventist God" IS the Sabbath. And, everyone else is wrong to rest their faith on the gospel of Christ which is the power of God for salvation for every one who believes.
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3531
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:36 pm: | |
Further, somehow they always decide that it is the 10 Commandments which defines God's law. That is so frustrating to me. They cannot acknowledgeóeven when they say we now live by the power of the Spirit and not under the authority of the lawóthat the Holy Spirit Himself is our rule of faith and practice. They insist He writes the 10 on our hearts.
That's such a straw-man! The Holy Spirit Himself is our Law; the entire text of the New Testament is God's written word to us. The Holy Spirit Himself teaches us through Scripture. We don't need to hold the fourth commandment like a talisman when we have the whole revelation of Jesus and the explanation of the New Covenant to show us the purpose and place of our rest: Jesus.
I get so tired of the plain words of Scripture being blurred in order to arrive at some way to claim that the 10 Commandments are written on our hearts.
Long sigh.
Colleen |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 248
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:02 pm: | |
Guy,
Above you stated:
"It's interesting that Goldstein acknowledges the situation. Could he be giving voice to the current state of thought among the leadership? And that they're searching for ways to deal with honest, inductive study of the Bible? Could it possibly lead to a reform like that in the WWCG? Maybe I'm too jaded to hope that it could be possible, but I do know that all things are possible with God."
Sadly, I think the answer to your question would be a "no". We just received the lastest Adventist Review-Cutting Edge Edition for March 9. In it, besides all the shots of him being a regular guy (hangin' with the Gen X'ers, tie off, sitting on a stool, poppin' a cold one, etc.) there is a compilation of Q&A with GC Prez Jan Paulsen over the course of a few years in different locations. Here's what went down in St. Louis on July 7, 2005:
quote:Q: 60-70 percent of the young adults are leaving the church. Why do you think this is, and what can we do to remedy this?
A: If young people of that number (I don't know quite what the numbers are) leave the church, we are in [trouble]. I don't think people leave the church because the teachings of the church have somehow died on them. They leave the church for personal and maybe social reasons, or something went wrong in their lives. The church (by that I mean the local congregation) needs to be a people-loving community. People need to know that when they walk into the local church, it's like the arms of a family held around them. Whatever they do, whoever they are, whatever they look like, and whatever they say, they need to know that they are safe within the family. In that kind of environment young people feel that this is a good place to be.
So there you have it straight from the leader of the leaders of the current SDA church administration. Same old nonsense, different day. **sigh**
Heretic
(Too bad the active threads don't automatically appear at the top of the page like on CARM. It's hard navigating back to these old threads sometimes when they're so far down the page.)
(Message edited by Heretic on March 11, 2006) |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 984
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 2:41 am: | |
When you enter the forum, the page where there is a list of ways to sort information, beginning with "Discussion" if you scroll all of the way to the bottom of the page you will notice that you can choose to see only the posts from the "Last Day" or "Last Week," and so forth. That will allow you to see all of the active threads where posts have been made to them within the past 24 hours, or seven days, etc., without having to list out all of the topics. |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 4:32 am: | |
Belva,
Muchas gracias! Wish I'd known that a year ago.  |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3536
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:30 pm: | |
You can also click "search" at the bottom of the page, and you can enter the time frame you wish to search, from the last hour to many weeks.
Colleen |
