| Author | Message | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2005 |
I work with a pentacostal and he's been taught that if your not baptised you wont be saved,he doesnt beleive in death bed conversions,and also if one doesnt speak in tongues,which he doesnt speak in tounges , but the church he goes to has taught that one should speak in tongues to be saved. any counsel,that you could share with me would be great. we have studied the topics,but these teaching have been burned into him so to speak.we can all relate to that. he's open though and I have shared with him my exodus and he appreciates my journey to turth.so any links on these subjects would be great,thanks,dawn | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3228 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dawn, the thief on the cross is one of the most powerful examples of two things: a person being saved without water baptism, and a death-bed conversion, so to speak. Acts 16:31 records Paul telling the Philippian jailor, in answer to his question re: what he must do to be saved, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedóyou and your household." Belief in the Lord Jesus is the requisite for salvation. Baptism is a sign of our belief, but it is not salvific. If it were, it would be a workójust as Sabbath was a work for us as Adventists. I'm sure others will have more extensive links/helps--perhaps this will help you get started! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1185 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dawn, That form of pentecostalism is just as much a false gospel as SDA or Catholicism is. I do not believe that people who teach (as opposed to the innocent who are sucked in to this) these false doctrines are true believers. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 211 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dawn - I agree with Colleen. I'm going to a Pentacostal church and the one I'm going to doesn't teach that. Most mainstream Pentacostal churches don't teach that. It sounds like this person might be listening to people and not looking into the bible. The bible doesn't say that. Salvation comes before baptism and baptism isn't a requirement for salvation. Being told you must speak in tongues or be baptized before being saved is not biblical and sounds very much like works for salvation. Perhaps the following might help: Acceptance: John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godó 13children born not of natural descent,nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentileóthe same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Ephsians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithóand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godó 9not by works, so that no one can boast. I would first recommend the following link of cults to see if the church name is on it: http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm I would try to find out what denomination it is and find out what they teach. If somebody has a good link on different denominations and what they teach that might help. I checked focus on the Family, and of course, they include their friends, the Seventh-day Adventists in their list. Lynne | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1187 Registered: 3-2005 |
Interesting point Lynne, about SDA just being accepted as another Christian group by James Dobson. But again, that doesn't surprise me. The level of discernment in the evangelical church is bad enough accepting SDAs and Catholics as just another Christian denomination. But, in a way, a new low has been reached in the evangelical world with the most recent Church Report's listing of the top 50 most influential Christian leaders. This is linked at www.thechurchreport.com/content/view/823/32 You would never believe who is number one on the list as the most influential Christian leaders in America--It is T.D.Jakes! Jakes is a Modalist, meaning he denies one of the cardinal tenets of the Christian faith, and that is the Trinity. Number two is Joel Osteen--that slick appearing self-esteem preacher out of Houston, Texas. With this kind of discernment, SDA will always be an evangelical church in the eyes of these folks. There is an interesting analysis of the breakdown of these top 50 most influential Christians at this blog www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/001788.html Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 212 Registered: 10-2005 |
Stan, Here is an old link showing Dobson with his Adventist friends: http://news.adventist.org/issues/data/894600000/ This is, again, old news. But notice the Adventists updated this page in 2006 and made sure it was at the top of the search engines in google - deliberately so. I suppose James Dobson is mostly a businessman. He is very warm towards Mormans as well. They are very family friendly of course. I would imagine if he didn't embrace these groups his organization could stand to lose profits at the very least in the millions. Not only that, if he were not politically correct, he might stand to be stereotyped as someone who is too extreme and of course, that would be a problem for the profits as well. Right now, he is in a win, win situation. I am not putting down James Dobson or his organization. Does he know what the Seventh-day Adventists teach their members to think of him? I'm sure someone has tried to bring it to his attention by now. He probably looks the other way. Lynne | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1188 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks for sharing that link, Lynne. You are 100% right! Dobson has compromised with SDA, and Catholicism. You may be right about Mormonism, and I would love to see the evidence that he is warm to Mormons, but I wouldn't be shocked. Even Billy Graham refuses to call Mormonism a false religion when Larry King asked him about it directly. But of course Grahams strong embrace of Romanism is well documented. All these false religions are the same--WORKS is the ultimate standard, not Christ alone. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1252 Registered: 7-2003  |
Focus on the family has even had Jewish non-believers on their programs if they support a family-friendly message. FOTF's mission, first and foremost, is family. They do not exclude by religious cohesiveness on fundamentals or core beliefs. They have been very open about the fact when someone is not a Christian, but supports family friendly values. Regardless of how one views such actions, FOTF is not a church, and has no doctrinal position, per se. Their mission is in support of the family, the Christian family particularly, but more recently with their family minute, etc. they're trying to reach all america with a "family positive" message. I don't know that that is really compromise as much as joining forces for a similar cause. In the special needs arena, I don't care what the religion of other parents is, we're all brought together by a common desire to do the best thing possible for our kids. I don't say that to justify FOTF, just to not set it in the same standard as a church. Stan, I struggle with what you're talking about a bit. Let me share some personal examples to help explain my dilemma. My brother and sister were raised by their catholic mother. To keep a relationship with the kids (11 and 16 years younger than me), I went to their 1st communions, etc. as those were significant milestones to them. NOT because I agreed with the ceremony, but to keep the relationship. I hoped someday by keeping those doors open, I would be in a position to have influence on their spiritual development and share the gospel with them. Contrast that with my position with Jonathan, my 2 year old son. I've made it very clear to anyone that asks that I will NEVER go to an adventist church. His adventist father has said the same thing about going to a "sunday" church. Along comes our son. God willing, one day Jonathan will want to be baptized. Which parent won't be there? And how much influence will the absent parent have on the spiritual development of the child after such absence? Yet for the parent who does not attend, how do you support the child without appearing to support the religion he has apparently accepted? When I speak on this forum, I am pretty blunt about my opinions on adventism, sometimes harsher than many formers because of my lack of emotional history with the religion. Sometimes people come on to warn us about the lurkers and our potentially offensive conversation. Are we compromising if we tailor our language to those who might be seeking a safe place to be vulnerable? I guess I don't see that sensitivity any different than a Billy Graham trying to get into places not particularly receptive to the gospel. I would stand up in my church and speak plainly about adventism, but I would struggle to have the same conversation in an adventist circle for concern I would close the ears of the listener. Is that compromise? My position on adventism is the same regardless of the audience, but ultimately, I want both groups to hear my message. If I delivered the same speech to both groups, only one would hear anything I had to say. So, how do you speak truth and yet remain available to those involved in groups you consider ... false religions? I know these things in part because of B. If he ever were to start to have that veil removed from his eyes, I'm sure I am the last person he would turn to because of his pride. And if I were to ever think adventism were right, I wouldn't tell him because I'm not interested in his arrogant, "holier than thou" attitude ...which is how many view Christians anyway. And I'm not being quoted or misquoted in any newspaper or magazine or new report soundbite. So. How do you do it? How do you speak the truth and not slam the doors of communication on those God has put in your sphere of influence? I remember condemning my dad's actions when it was my brother/sister, yet here I am 20 years later convinced I will repeat the same action if forced, knowing it will forever change the dynamics between me and my son, and potentially my ability to have any spiritual influence in his life all for the sake of not appearing soft on adventism. Am I to shrug my shoulders and say "his loss?" Can we take those specific situations and make some generalizations about those in a higher sphere of influence or is there no correlation? Why or why not? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 213 Registered: 10-2005 |
Mellisa, Sensitivity is a very good point. From a personal perspective, as an Adventist, I was always very sensitive if anyone even came close to calling it a bad word. I've been going to a Sunday church on and off for a few years now. I've always dabbled in them as an Adventist, so to speak, because I often honestly enjoyed them more than the Adventist church. They were more uplifting. However, if anyone spoke against an Adventist in this church, I would have been afraid, thought the end was very near and never went back. Nobody could confront me on this. Perhaps it is sometimes better to just meet people where they are and speak the truth whenever possible. However, if more people were educated about Adventism and speaking up against it, perhaps the truth might have reached me sooner and I would have gotten out of the church sooner or never became an Adventist. Would you find Dobson standing up with the Jehovah Witnesses like this talking about his Jehovah Witness friends? No. Dobson is a person of influence and the SDA leaders know it and will deceive anyone whenever possible for the benefit of looking evangelical. Perhaps Stan is just saying "Wake up Everyone" these are false religions. Stop worrying about hurting their feelings, perhaps the truth would "Save" many people! Many people such as myself who looked at all those evangelical Christians like Dobson. Also, would you find Dobson also talking about his homosexual friends on a public platform? Is he speaking against homosexuals? Yes. There are same sex couples out there with sensitive children that have no choice as to who is raising them. Two moms or two dads. Wouldn't Dobson say the truth was more important? He publically speaks against homosexuality. Accepting homosexuality is not going to make people think there is something wrong with it. It will just gain more acceptance. My bottom line is to accept the truth and tell it like it is whenever possible prayerfully. We musn't forget to pray about everything, because we will be led by the Holy Spirit to the truth, even if it makes us us uncomfortable at times. Stan is correct that there is just too much compromise regarding mainstream Christians and false religions. Lynne | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1192 Registered: 3-2005 |
Melissa, You and I agree in the political realm. I do accept Dobson on what he is doing in the politcal arena. I have no fear of great Roman Catholics such as John Roberts on the supreme court, and I back another RC Sam Alito. Like the Reformers, I am trying to separate the two kingdoms. For the sake of the gospel, Roman Catholicism and Mormonism, are enemies. However, for maintaining good moral government many of them are our friends. Since I have no fear of any Sunday laws, I can accept Catholics as common friends in enforcing a pro-life agenda. But this has nothing to do with the gospel, which must be kept pure at all costs. Stan | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2005 |
amen stan,you know what i find a little strange is that this man has said he has been going to this church for over ten yrs and has never spoke in tongues he has in fact even wondered if he is saved because of this ,he even wonders how he could be going for ten yrs and joe blow walks in off the streets becomes "saved" and starts speaking in tongues,he wonders why God hasnt blessed him. He and I were talking last night about conforming and he said maybe it's not a bad thing to conform to things that I was used to like wading but not swimmig on the sabbath,he said you know the amish conform to teachings because that's all they know ,so if that's all i knew then maybe it's not so bad. and i said that doesnt make it truth and i dont want to settle and you shouldnt either,i want truth,and i dont want to be in that box of conformity,because when you do that you put God in that box as well.i refuse to settle anymore!! I will share with him again thanks all! Dawn | ||
| Jtree Registered user Username: Jtree Post Number: 222 Registered: 5-2000 |
One of the best studies on the charismatic movement one can find.. Look and print out the study sermans by John Macarthur, page down you can't miss it. http://www.biblebb.com/mac-a-g.htm for example. http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/qacharismatics.htm | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 214 Registered: 10-2005 |
I respectfully disagree with the views posted by Jtree. In the spirit of Ellen White, only fanatics speak in tongues (she never did). In the spirit of Ellen White, healing (through a vegetarian diet, fresh air, etc...) is from how we take care of ourselves, "Works". Not so much, if at all, divine. In the spirit of Ellen White, "Where is the Holy Spirit?" Check out both sides when denominations don't agree about certain issues and prayerfully see what the bible says to you, USING THE BIBLE AS YOUR ONLY AUTHORITY. I would like to recommend that any Former Adventist who is sincerely seeking the truth not get too fixed on believing the views of any one person or group of people. Don't just go to one denomination or listen to a preacher and say, according to this study this is what I believe. Check the bible for yourself. Pray alone about it sincerely and He will answer you. Do this with everything and you will find yourself doing His will. I am posting this in defense of the many Pentecostal churches who are serving Jesus and preaching and teaching the true Gospel. When a sincere believer tells you they have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in a greater depth through speaking in tongues, they are not speaking about a demonic experince as Ellen White would call it. She didn't have a clue about the Holy Spirit as believers do. And again, she never spoke in tongues. I posted this link before because I like it, especially because it comes from someone who was once against speaking in tongues (or Praying in the Spirit): http://www.layhands.com/PrayingInTheSpirit.htm Some people who speak in tongues only do so privately and are not within the Pentecostal denomination. I have a chronic health condition with no cure. As a testimony to me and my doctors of the true miracle of God, some physical ailments I have had, have been divinely healed. I will not deny my Lord Jesus the proper Praise! I might recommend a healthy diet as would most doctors, but not exclusively a vegetarian diet. And if by those works it helped build my immune system and heal me of a physical ailment, ultimately it is through Jesus, not my works. Look outside the box and in the bible, which is the Word of God! In the name of Jesus. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3233 Registered: 12-2003 |
Regarding James Dobson and Adventists: the principal at the Christian school where I recently taught told ne one day that one of the FOTF administrators (whose name now escapes me) came to our school and conducted a special meeting for parents. My principal specifically asked him about his/FOTF's view of Adventists. His response was that the denomination was "changing" in some places and becoming more evangelical, and those evangelical Adventists were part of the body of Christ. I admit I got a little intense as I told my principal that there is only ONE Adventism, there is no change in it, and whatever surface changes are happening in some conregations, they are not abandoning the church's doctrines. All people who become Adventists have to agree to the same baptisimal certificates. There is only one Adventist church, and Adventists all affirm unique Adventist doctrines by becoming members. He saw my point. Colleen | ||
| Jtree Registered user Username: Jtree Post Number: 224 Registered: 5-2000 |
And I myself respectfully disagree with the hucksters of Christianity. The one's John Macarthur points out in his most excellent sermons and studies of the Charismatic movement. I love John Macarthur for his ministry, God has given that man a mission. Nothing in the world like sound doctrine. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1193 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jtree, You are absolutely right about John MacArthur. There are very few people like him who is not afraid to be politically incorrect, and speak out strongly against Catholicism, as well as so much other junk out there. However, in defense of Lynne's points, there is a legitimate moderate group that are charismatic. And I wouldn't consider all of them in the "kook" fringe. Unfortunately TBN is what people see, and they are the true hucksters "Benny Hinn, T.D. Jakes, etc etc. MacArthur is known as a cessationist which means all the miraculous gifts have ceased. However, there is another very moderate and realistic charismatic named Wayne Grudem, who is highly respected, and he takes the opposite view of MacArthur. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 215 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jtree, If everybody who is Pentecostal or every Pentecostal Pastor is a Hugster, then the world is right. All Christians who profess to be Christian are a bunch of judgmental hypocrites. Jtree, not everybody is going to see it your way. Not all Christians need to agree with every single thing that John MacArthur has to say. It should be more about who is professing and teaching the gospel, not who agrees with every detail of a particular denomination. There are Pentecostal churches I feel comfortable in and Baptist churches that I feel comfortable in and there are some of both that I don't feel comfortable in. There are also people I feel comfortable with in many denominations and many whom I don't. And there are no two people that can agree on everything. So with that said. Peace and blessings to you and your studies. May God be with John MacArthur and may God be with all those professing and teaching the true gospel no matter if they are Pentecostal or not. Lynne | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 216 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jtree, If everybody who is Pentecostal or every Pentecostal Pastor is a Hugster, then the world is right. All Christians who profess to be Christian are a bunch of judgmental hypocrites. Jtree, not everybody is going to see it your way. Not all Christians need to agree with every single thing that John MacArthur has to say. It should be more about who is professing and teaching the gospel, not who agrees with every detail of a particular denomination. There are Pentecostal churches I feel comfortable in and Baptist churches that I feel comfortable in and there are some of both that I don't feel comfortable in. There are also people I feel comfortable with in many denominations and many whom I don't. And there are no two people that can agree on everything. So with that said. Peace and blessings to you and your studies. May God be with John MacArthur and may God be with all those professing and teaching the true gospel no matter if they are Pentecostal or not. Lynne | ||
| Jtree Registered user Username: Jtree Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2000 |
I don't agree with every single word anyone says. I agree with what the Bible does say. And it's quite obvious. And about judgement...I take you back in time here at this web site..a very very important statement by our friend who I have missed for many years. Max/Jude the Obscure. Hey Max..you out there brother? I miss you so much. I have been reading your old post's daily since the last time you was here. And that is why I rarely posted in the past few years. Too busy reading things Max said. http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/421/639.html?971617267 | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 562 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan and Jtree, I wholeheartedly agree with John MacArthur's article on the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement. It takes alot of courage to speak the truth. I respect him highly for that. Lynne, My agreeing with John MacArthur about Catholicism and Pentecostalism doesn't mean that I agree with everything he preaches. For example, his eschatological views are not biblical in my view. Of course, one's eschatological views are not salvific anyway. However, I consider John MacArthur more consistent and biblical than most of his peers. As Christ-followers, we are all theologians in the truest sense. Salvation is a very personal matter. Importantly, salvation is not a goal to be achieved, but rather it is a gift to be received. Dennis Fischer |
