| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 220 Registered: 10-2005 |
Another thoughtful article by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Professor of Theology, Andrews University Let us review the basic facts about Rock Music: "Christian rock" has its roots in secular rock. Secular rock has the following qualities: (a) Rooted in the West African slave culture. (b) Influenced and advanced by various Western factors. (c) Most of its performers and composers live debauched lifestyles that are evident in much of their music. Is deeply immersed in the occult. Is rooted in and encourages drug use. Promotes and encourages violence. Here is more of his writing: "Christian Rock" is not Neutral, Because it Can Control the Mind I guess that should make Adventism not Neutral too, Because it Can Control the Mind. The young people are leaving the Adventist Church for the best rock music he says: Adventist young people are finding it increasingly difficult to see the distiction between their church and what other Christian and non-Christian churches have to offer. The danger of this is that they will go to whoever offers the "best rock music" rather than to the church that offers the truth. I personally have friends who have left Adventism for Pentecostal churches using as the basis for their decision the supposed better worship style of the Charismatic church--a worship style that is largely rooted in "Christian rock" music, a music that creates unholy excitement. The truth becomes secondary in their search for a better experience--an experience generated by "Christian rock" music. And he goes on to quote Ellen White: "A Bedlam of Noise." Ellen White clearly states that The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time...... A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's workings. No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship."31 Note that Ellen White attributes the origin of this noisy music to "satanic agencies." It is a sobering thought that Satan, the fallen choirmaster of heaven, is the author of the bedlam of noise that characterizes rock music today. The recognition of this fact should warn our youth and its leaders against the dangers of "Christian rock." Poor kids. Tell them the Holy Spirit will be in the Santuary during worship and it will be given to the Pastor if the music is right. Here is the link if you want to see more. http://www.greatcontroversy.org/documents/standards/music/bac-nl30.html God Bless the Christian Rock Musicians who are bringing the truth about JESUS to the world. The only thing Satanic here is the clamoring of words that proclaiming JESUS in Christian Rock removes the Holy Spirit. Quite the opposite is true for the young people today. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 885 Registered: 7-2004 |
I guess this applies to Amy Grant, and others. I have two of her CD's in my car and I listen to them often. Some of that music raises me up to the Gates of Heaven, and I'm at peace after only the little I get to hear while driving to the grocery or to the pharmacy. My thoughts are on the wondrousness of Jesus and his awesome gift of eternal life. Satan wouldn't want my thoughts in a place like that. Once again it is Adventist fearmongering. They have so many things that they are afraid of. They fear rock music, flesh foods, dairy foods, modes of dress, types of entertainment,... again the list goes on ad infinitum. If you surrender your life to the promptings of the Holy Spirit you can walk safely past the Gates of Hell because you are carrying within you the ultimate protection against any and all things that can rob you of your inheritance. If you misunderstand who the Holy Spirit is, you can hide and pray all day and still not escape from sin. They are white washing the sepulcars again. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3243 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, Belva, what a powerful observation you made: "If you surrender your life to the promptings of the Holy Spirit you can walk safely past the Gates of Hell because you are carrying within you the ultimate protection against any and all things that can rob you of your inheritance. If you misunderstand who the Holy Spirit is, you can hide and pray all day and still not escape from sin." So wonderfully stated. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2208 Registered: 3-2004  |
Belva, You have a wonderful way with words. I, too, like that statement. Very well put. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 887 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you, ladies, but those were mumblings based on personal experience. I cannot relay to you the fact that during most of my other life (Adventist) I felt like I was whistling in the dark. Fear gnawed at my very soul. What's more, I know I was not alone in that experience. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 222 Registered: 10-2005 |
Belva, You were not alone. I just didn't know where all that fear came from. Lynne | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1200 Registered: 3-2005 |
The last two nights, I have been especially blessed by an interview on the Haven Today program with Matthew Ward regarding that beautiful album "My Redeemer". The songs on that album are truly inspired and bring you close to the Redeemer. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2213 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, You were not alone. I remember being fearful about many things taught by Adventists. Eventually, I just ignored them. Than after my divorce, after my name was taken off the church books, I decided to do what I ever I wanted and when I wanted. I just knew that when I died, was resurrected when Jesus came and died again, I would be dead for good and I was comfortable with that. After all that is what I had learned as an SDA. Thank God, He had other plans for me. Thank You God, You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2005 |
I remember doing a little thing at Easter for the kids it was called the resserection egg something I got the idea from Focus on the Family it was very visual,but I had the kids come up on the platform,I thought I was up there in my underwear,I might as well been,it was not well recieved. My daughter once sang a Jacki Valesuqez song a few members got up and left because of the drums,she has never got back up front to sing,and the list could go on and on and........Dawn | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 134 Registered: 6-2005 |
........"Ellen White clearly states that: The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time...... A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's workings. No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship."31 .......The Bible clearly states that: Psalm 150 An exhortation to praise God 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3 Praise him with the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4 Praise him with the TIMBREL AND DANCE: praise him with STRINGED INSTRUMENTS AND ORGANS. 5 Praise him upon the LOUD CYMBALS: praise him upon the HIGH SOUNDING cymbals. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. GASP!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3247 Registered: 12-2003 |
It's things like this and also statements such as those quoted in the article Stan linked to in the previous thread that make me believe Ellen's inspiration was not just the rambling of an unstable mind. It is so subtle but specificly anti-God and completely deceptive that it could only have come from the source of all lies. She systematically destabilized every core doctrinal teaching on the nature of man and the nature of God. She wasn't just "crazy"--she was remarkably consistent (even though she contradicted herself in many details.) When you consider the whole opus of her work, she removes the reality of God's wrath and justice, the eternal security of Christ's finished work, the reality of our own spirits that are either dead and eternally separated from God or alive in Him and eternally in Christ. She promoted the universal nautral human heresy: acceptance by good works. She contradicted the Biblical teaching of true worship, as JavaGirl demonstrated above; She denigrates Jesus' divinity and elevates Satan's importance. All in all, her collective "teachings" reveal not just the crazy ramblings of a sick mind, but the deliberate construction of a false gospel that insulates its believers from knowing Jesus and experiencing the freedom of the gospel. I absolutely praise God for rescuing me and calling me to Himself! It is a miracle when an Adventist is awakened to the Biblical truth which has been hidden from them but has been there in the Bible all along. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 890 Registered: 7-2004 |
Now that's a joyful noise, very close to bedlam, don'tcha think! Thanks, Javagirl, Let's keep praising the Lord. From that description, I think the Lord likes all sorts of music, even music with a driving beat! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2005 |
I found a very nice chart that put it in perspective for me. Go to http://youth.slcevfree.org/pot.htm and select Christian Music Comparison Chart (PDF) http://youth.slcevfree.org/PDF/Christian%20Music%20Comparison%20Chart.pdf "Have you ever wondered how you could get your child to listen to Christian music instead of music with lyrics that are poisoning their souls? Try suggesting some QUALITY Christian music in the genre they already listen to...it could make a world of difference. Use this chart to find comparable Christian and secular artists in similar styles!" I grew up in an environment where it was ok to listen to music as long as "it didn't have a beat." "Classical", of course, qualified, while anything with a beat did not. I have come to the conclusion that it is hypocritical to say that just because music is classical that it is fine, while rock is automatically not. In my opinion, any genre of music can be either uplifting or degrading. For classical music buffs I suggest that they tell me what is so spiritually uplifting about the (musically beautiful) piece by Bizet called Carmen. Here is the story line to a well-known piece that is played even at Southern (Missionary College). I suppose if the music sounds fine the story line doesn't matter? http://www.pzweifel.com/music/carmen_narrative.htm "The first act takes place in a village square in Seville in 1820. On one side of the stage is a guardhouse, where the officer Morales and his men hang out, killing time by smoking, gabbing and watching the passing crowd. On the other side is the facade of a cigarette factory where only women are hired, one of the reasons being that during the excruciatingly hot Andalusian summers they generally work topless. It is close to noon and we may presume that it is not summer, since the female chorus always appears fully clothed, at least in the performances I have seen. Soon Micaela appears, seeking Don JosĖ. She approaches the guardhouse, and after she refuses some indecent propositions of Morales he informs her that JosČ is a member of a different company which will soon be appearing, for the guard changes at noon. She leaves, promising to return. " ... "It is now lunchtime, and the cigarette girls exit the factory, singing about the joys of smoking cigarettes. The men, lounging in the square, flirt idly with the girls, but mainly express their interest in seeing Carmen who now appears and sings of her philosophy of (free) love in a famous aria, the Habanera . This is not really a Cuban melody, as its name suggests, but is taken from a popular Spanish song of the time." ... "After Escamillo leaves, Frasquita and Mercedes confront Carmen, warning her that JosĖ has been seen lurking nearby, and urging her to leave. Carmen refuses to go, and tells her friends that she is not afraid of anything. Suddenly Carmen is accosted by JosĖ and the final scene of the opera begins. At first JosĖ is conciliatory, begging Carmen to return to him, but when she defiantly refuses, JosĖ stabs her to death. The opera ends there, with Carmenķs murder; however, by returning to the novelette, we learn that after the killing JosĖ is arrested and condemned to death, by garrote." And so on ... | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 416 Registered: 7-2000 |
To me, as a Christian and a musician, Bacchiocchis' comments are an example of what happens when you put your trust in something other than the Bible. EGW has all sorts of conflicting statements about music that can allow you to pick and choose which statements you want. Much of her writings are irrelevent because there was no electronic music in her days. I've had some interesting discussions with a local SDA pastor I know. He used to be Pentecostal and was also a drummer in a rock band. He claims that drummers go into an almost trance like state and that the beat can be used to influence folks. Good or bad is not the issue, it's what the drum can do. O.K.---so what about some of the other types of drums, I ask? Walla Walla has a big, steel drum choir. These drums set the Calypso/Carib feeling and tempo---yet without a rock beat. What then? Well, as far as this pastor is concerned it's easier to avoid church fights and problems just by not having drums. But then what about the school bands? Show me a concert or symphonic band without percussion! That's O.K.? 'No Drums' is just illogical, as is banning music because of a 'beat' or because it's 'loud' or 'exuberant'. On the other hand, you can't be so open minded that your brains fall out! That's happening in some corners of the broader Christian community. I'd bet most of us on this forum, because of our ages, are thinking of contemporary Christian or Praise/Worship type of music when these discussions come up. But consider something like (I wish I could remember the artist) the rap song 'Pimpin' for Jesus', with lyrics like 'He's my pimp and I'm his 'Ho'. To me, that's way over a line that shouldn't be crossed. Have you heard 'scream rock', which is a variation of punk/heavy metal where the lyrics are screamed out at ear splitting decibels? I can't conceive of having any sort of worship experience with that music. It certainly doesn't foster the sort of emotions that would seem compatible with Christianity. There has to be discernment and accountablity within each church body to guard against that which would tear down, hurt or destroy the fellowship. That, to me, is the bottom line... Bill | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bill -- you have stated my sentiments very well. Gilbert | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 256 Registered: 6-2001  |
Let's see, pornographers use the Internet to dispense porn. That means Christians shouldn't use the Internet for anything at all. I love his phrase "unholy excitement" I suppose reaching up your hands in prayer with tears streaming down your cheeks while the music is playing is an unholy excitement. I suspect Samuele Bacchiocchi has not found much in Adventism to be exciting at all, holy or not. Oh, about Satan being the "fallen choirmaster of heaven," is that a Whitism? Logically, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3251 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Hannah--that's Whitism--and one of the little details that makes me believe Lucifer just might have been behind her "visions". I ask you, without the Bible revealing such a detail, exactly WHERE woould it come from if not one who wished to be admired? I know I used to spend quite a bit of thought as a girl on the idea that Satan was reputed to be able to sing 4-part harmony all by himself, that he was the choirmaster, that he was a fabulous musician. These thoughts would lead me to the fact that the Mormons were very into choral music and excellent performances, and then I would wonder about Adventists' major focus on music and its performance. I used to wonder how Mormons could embrace something so wonderful when clearly they were under the control of the luciferian choirmaster, but we had much the same emphasis but were holy. These thoughts didn't cause me to doubt, though--only to feel grateful and proud to be RIGHT. Great post, Bill! Colleen | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2005 |
Isn't it amazing that he can make such a big deal about music, pulling out an obscure quote from EGW while his pictures are all over the place advertising his books. Didn't she call pictures idolatry? Numerous times? It is also very telling and typical SDA that he assumes the young people are only going to another church for the music, not for the purity of the gospel. If I were young and exposed to much of Bacchiocchi, I would go to another church too. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 564 Registered: 4-2000  |
Here are some biblical directives on music from various translations and paraphrases: "Applause, everyone. Bravo, bravissimo! Shout God-songs at the top of your lungs!" (Psalms 47:1 THE MESSAGE) "All nations, clap your hands, with ringing homage to God." (Psalms 47:1 MOFFATT) "Clap your hands for joy, all peoples! Praise God with loud songs!" (Psalms 47:1 TEV) "Clap your hands, all peoples, acclaim God with shouts of joy." (Psalms 47:1 NJB) "All you peoples, clap your hands; shout to God with joyful cries." (Psalms 47:1 NAB) "O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph." (Psalms 47:1 KJV) "Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!" (Psalms 47:1 ESV) "COME, EVERYONE, AND clap for joy! Shout triumphant praises to the Lord!" (Psalms 47:1 THE LIVING BIBLE) "Clap your hands, all you peoples; shout to God with a jubilant cry." (Psalms 47:1 HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE) "O CLAP your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph and songs of joy." (Psalms 47:1 THE AMPLIFIED BIBLE) Dennis Fischer | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2004 |
Good topic. Back in my latter college days, I had a morning radio show (at a secular college station) called "Cain and Abel." It was a blast to say the least. And this from a guy who was TERRIFIED in high school to get up in front of the class, do oral reports, mingle with the ladies, etc! This little class/gig/etc. enabled me to come out of my shell, play some wonderful Christian music (Imperials, Amy, Michael W. Smith - my fave - Dan Peek, and the like.) I especially like the crossover musicians (like Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith, Jaci Velasquez, etc.) as I feel they can reach a new audience. Let's be frank, not so much the beat, but what are the artists saying. Wow, I have been to 3 MWS concerts and each time I got goose bumps with what he said and how he said it. And I know there were plenty of "fence straddlers" who may have gone home that night and surrendered their life to Christ because of the moving music. Now, we might all agree that there is some pretty brutal "music" (noise) out there these days. It seems like the inner city has enveloped our cultures wherever we are. When I was right out of college I used to work secular radio and came across some very interesting and spooky stuff. This was before CD's as we used reel-to-reel and LPs. One could take the reel or the record and play portions of it backwards (backmasking) and man if that didn't freak me out. Some of the most unlikely groups or artists. Most notably, the Beatles. They were really into backmasking. Makes you wonder just who/what was behind such oddities! As for the topic at hand I agree...my SDA days were filled with all kinds of music and I thought much of it was great. I like the bell ringers. But when I started to go to some non-SDA churches that had drums, electric guitars, members dressed in flannel shirts (!) it seemed to do more for my spirit than the aforementioned. Satan felt very far away at that time! Eric | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2221 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have always liked music, all kinds of it. I do not like the kind that is hard on the ears and the mind with all kinds of awful lyrics that demean a human being and talk of hurting them. Even as an SDA I listened to all kinds of music. My Mom did not mind us listening to Mexican music as that is part of our heritage, but she did not like us to listen to Rock and Roll. So now I have all kinds of music in my collection. I remember some where in the Bible it says to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. That is what I do now. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3258 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, thanks for the Scripture quotes! There surely seems to be a lot of hand-clapping in the Psalms, doesn't there? Keep clapping... Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 388 Registered: 8-2004  |
Eric, Thanks for mentioning Dan Peek. I was introduced to his music in Alaska and really enjoyed it, but had forgotten his name. Now I can enjoy it again! Blessings, Mary |
