| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 127 Registered: 10-2005 |
I've always wondered how churches could survive without tithe. I know the catholic church does, but they have purgatory where relatives give money to the church to get their loved ones away from hell. I looked at some of the teachings on tithing at http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/ and wondered if there are any particular denominations that don't teach OT tithing, but the new covenant. And if so, are there any spreadsheet comparables and/or testimonials of churches actually being financially better off by not using the tithing methods, tried and true. The church I'm going to teaches tithing and the pastor said that whenever he does a sermon on it there is always a major drop the following week in attendance. My husband believes Malachi 3:8 is the only place in the bible where there is actually a promised return, testing Him on something. And so he tithes 10 percent and has for years. Also, has anyone here read "The Treasure Principle" by Randy Alcorn? Having been an adventist, I've always followed the leadership and their teachings of the bible. I also have that tendency to want to believe and support my husband in biblical matters. However, reading on some of this topic, I feel the Holy Spirit convicting me to dig a little deeper. It is truely my wish now to follow the bible for what it really says, and even though I am a woman, it doesn't remove me from making my own biblical decisions based on fact. Any input would be appreciated. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3038 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lynne, the new covenant does not teach tithing. All we have belongs to God, just as all our time is His--no more holy days, no more "holy" money. Our church does not teach tithing nor ask its members to tithe. In fact, many churches do not teach tithing. When people understand the concept that all they have belongs to God, giving and generosity seem to increase. I know of a Calvary Chapel in So. California that built a new worship center without ever having a building campaign nor requests for tithe. The church operates on the principle that if their plans are submitted to God, He will provide what's needed and convict people to give. If people use tithe as a baseline for giving, I'm not going to criticize them for it. That said, however, tithe is not a new covenant teaching. Actually, I believe most people who embrace their complete dependence upon God and see all they have as His are far more generous than 10% givers. It's part of surrender and dependence. God truly provides for His people, and He prospers His people in order for them to be generous. Just as the Holy Spirit convicts us of the issues in our lives that we need to surrender, He also convicts us of what we need to give. Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2002 |
If we followed the pre-newcoventant teachings of the Old Testament we would function largely along the lines of the extreme, fundamentalist Muslims. They are the only group that still abides strictly by those rules. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 511 Registered: 4-2000  |
Lynne, It is impossible to practice tithing without the Levitical system in place. Our Jewish friends are well aware of that and they do not tithe. They discontinued tithing after the destruction of their temple in A. D. 70. Jews consider tithing as sacrilegious without a Levitical system in place. Jesus, as a non-Levite, never exacted tithes from his followers. It would have been illegal for him to have done so. Importantly, there never was a monetary tithe under the Old Covenant. Salaries were exempt from the law of tithing. Tithe was required only on crops and animals. For example, farm hands did not tithe. They were employees without an increase from crops and animals. It is surprising to many people that a large segment of the Israelites did not tithe at all. Those people who were involved in the lumber industry, mining, construction, merchandising, manufacturing, handicraft workers, medical personnel, military personnel, teachers, librarians, etc. were all exempt from the tithing codes. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 378 Registered: 10-2001 |
I know all of your arguements for not tithing, but I'm gonna keep on tithing. God ALWAYS gives me back more. Never fails. I do understand that all we have is His, my car is 6 years old and I have never broken down, don't think that is coincedence, it has 189,000+ miles. I drove around with a burnt up alternator for 2 weeks, the mechanic showed me it was literally melted, but my car started everyday, I just went in to have the smell checked out. Let everyone be convinced in his own mind, it is not a salvation issue, but if God is dealing with you about it, like Malachi says, "Try Him" and just see if He doesn't pour out more blessings on you than you can hold. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 403 Registered: 7-2000 |
I don't think anyone is saying you won't be blessed for giving, Sabra. The issue is whether a 10%, mandatory tithe is taught in the New Testament---and the answer is that it's not. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 791 Registered: 7-2004 |
Paul does say (can't remember the reference, will have to look it up) that if you have been taught, you are obligated to pay the teacher. This is the way of saying that the congregation should pay the minister's salary. Paul leaves it up to each individual to measure out what he considers is the value of what he has learned. | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2005 |
ok, so tithing is not a New Testament teaching....but the fact that ALL AUTHORITY is set up by God (Rom 13:1, I peter 2:13, Matt 22:21, Titus 3:1, Heb 13:7) IS clearly a NT teaching. It seems that the Church IS an authority that God has established and that authority in order to be authority has to have the legislative and executive functions--which includes making and enforcing rules..such as no dancing, no jewelry, and re-instating a tithe system...no they are not BIBLE TRUTHS...but they are still binding on those who choose to join their organizations--if you don't like what that authority says, become a denomonational refugee and move to a new location and submit yourself to a different authority....(Boy, am i sounding RC or what?) I really feel strongly that we in America are far too independent, distrustful and disrespectful of all authority and use the escape clause of Acts 5:29 "we ought to obey God rather than man" to avoid doing what we don't want to... In my study of the NT there are 4 characteristics of Christians that come up repeatedly as evidence of the indwelling spirit in your life..... 1. Personal humility, 2. Concern for others(love) . 3. Submission to authority 4. Unity in the body. If I ever only did what I thought was "right" in my eyes without regard to what my authority thought was right, everyone around me would have a miserable life. We need to come together under an authority and support that authority by our obedience (Eph 5:21, 1 Cor 16:16, Heb 13:17, 1 Peter 5:5, 1 Peter 2:13) even if that authority is wrong--if they are, that's God's problem. He is still sovereign! But our submission is a spiritual discipline that, when practiced in the Spirit will not be harmful to our walk with God, but will actually prepare us for the servanthood of Christ. that said, i think a church needs to use its rules making authority responsibly and have restraint in the frequency and amount of rules they promulgate. i think the church also needs to be honest about what it is saying and not rely on straw man arguments to prop up its position. why does the church hide behind OT tithing theology when any thinking person will have a problem with it? Why not just say, yes, we are reinstating a program similar to OT Tithing and here is what it is.....and refer to Rom 13:1-2 as their authority, not Leviticus. That would really change the argument wouldn't it? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 384 Registered: 7-2004  |
Pauls, I agree with you that a church has every right to set whatever rules it would like for those who choose to be a part of that church. I only think that it is a problem if the church creates a rule that is not Scriptural and then claims that it is a Biblical requirement. But I would quickly add that each Christian has a responsibility to consider whether they are supporting a church that accurately presents God's Word, and His Gospel, to the world. If we knowingly support the spread of a false teaching about God, are we as guilty as if we had done the false teachings ourselves? I would disagree with you in regards to American independence of religious thought. Many are happy to accept whatever their pastor/church/favorite author teaches without an effort to verify the Biblical basis. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 512 Registered: 4-2000 |
Pauls, Another largely overlooked and/or ignored aspect of tithing in our economy is the issue of unequal sacrifice. For example, a tither earning merely $10,000.00 per year has a much greater financial burden for the basic needs of life than the tither earning $100,000.00 per year (even flat tax proponents and the IRS allow an exemption for low income). In ancient Israel, the farmers had less diversity of incomes than in our modern economy. Making unauthorized so-called "principles" out of Old Covenant rituals is clearly unbiblical. The tithe was at first brought was brought into play by Moses to maintain the service of the Temple. With no Temple, the major factor for tithe paying does not exist as far as the biblical laws of tithing are concerned. For any church leaders to change the direction of paying the tithe from that of the Temple to the service of Christian ministry is to do so without any authority whatsoever from God. In fact, to use the tithing laws in a manner not sanctioned by the Word of God is to sin against biblical law. This is precisely why modern Jews do not practice tithing today. They are smart enough to know that the Levitical system no longer exists. What is sad is the fact that most of the preachers know they are taking the teaching of tithing out of context in the Bible when they use it to get funds to operate their Christian work. Indeed, they should cease their flagrant misapplicaton of Scripture and promote Spirit-led (grace) giving as taught in the New Testament. Old Covenant tithing codes dealt only with food, not money. For example, Paul never used biblical tithe to support his preaching of the Gospel. Paul was too trained in biblical law to suggest such a thing. It would have been illegal for him to take tithe because he was from Benjamin, not from Levi. If one wishes to make "principles" out of OT rituals, why not make all the rituals of the Bible into principles? Legalism is never consistent. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1072 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, have you ever had the chance to try to correspond with people like RC Sproul or D. James Kennedy on either this tithe issue or the Sunday Sabbath issue? My Dad tried writing to Kennedy on this issue to challenge tithing, and he got a very unsatisfactory response. Also Robert Morey who is anti-Sabbatarian is pro tithe and he claims he can prove it Biblically. I wonder how these men who are so right on about the doctrines of grace can be so far off on this tithing issue. I would sure hate to think that these men are deliberately teaching tithing just to further their own ministries. I see more consistency in John MacArthur who is not Sabbatarian and definitely teaches against tithing. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 514 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, I have never communicated with Drs. Kennedy and Sproul about tithing. However, I sent an email to the late Larry Burkett, the former CEO and founder of Crown Ministries. My wife Sylvia heard him tell a listener, on his call-in radio show, that if you don't pay tithe you may not be a Christian. Neither Larry Burkett, nor his staff, had the courtesy to reply. I have communicated with the office of Dr. D. James Kennedy on the topic of semi-sabbatarianism. His associate was very gracious to me in several emails. He had never even heard of semi-sabbatarianism. He surmised that I was probably a seminary professor (smile). Yes, I also view John MacArthur as very consistent and biblical overall. More importantly, I consider him being a godly person. Actually, John MacArthur wakes me up every morning at 6:30 for the "Grace to You" radio program. Truly, the SDA Church does not corner the market on legalism. It is alive and thriving in many religious circles today. My greatest fear comes from Ellen White when she warned, that if you don't pay tithe, your favorite horse may fall dead. (Test. Vol. 2, page 661). :>) Even more scary, she continues, is that non-tithing is the reason "we are so sickly, and so many are falling into their graves" (Test., Vol. 2, page 199). However, before praying for the sick, she advises, "We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church" (Healthful Living, p. 121 "Prayer for the Sick"). Her ultimate conclusion is that if you don't tithe, you "are unworthy of the Christian name" (Testimonies to Ministers, page 60). Consequently, "It may be that here is the secret of unanswered prayer" (COL, page 144). "If a Christian has ten or twenty thousand dollars, God's claims are imperative upon him, not only to give his proportion according to the tithing system, but to present his SIN-OFFERINGS and thank offerings to God." ("The Claims of Mrs. EGW As Stated By Herself" Tract No. 1, p. 16; Emphasis mine). Wow, I didn't know that "sin-offerings" are required too. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2005 |
I was a tither and now am not. I am more blessed now than when I gave 10%. I believe I am actually "FREER" than before! I was a cheerful tither, but am now an EXCITED giver...that is not to say you cannot be excited or cheerful in your tithing, but to say that my giving is now much more personal, more intimate, if you will, because I hear from the Lord on how much to give. It is not something I measure out myself anymore. | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2005 |
thanks dennis and ric_b. I always appreciate your thoughtful perspective. I too share the concern about people who take what the minister says without finding it out for themselves....if your christian walk is your #1 priority (matt 6:33), why would you not want to find out for yourself what God says? And do so enthusiastically? I know when I left the church and came back, when i came back, i was fired up and turned on and raring to figure it all out and do it all right. God has had to slow me down and teach me some things so i didn't get ahead of myself--but that is a very different attitude from the casual attitude of the pew warmer....its an incomprehensible attitude really.. 2t 661 interesting quote. i didn't catch the tithing part, but it certainly says that if we are "selfishly" withholding from God's cause, He may bring hardship on us to wake us up. 1. that would exclude the poor person who can barely make ends meet--hence they cannot be "selfish" in the same sense that a wealthy man who has his needs met and more is/can be. 2. does God not deal with His children in a manner that causes pain or suffering so that we will wake up, so to speak and realize our situation? to me the giving is not about the money, per se-its about the heart condition but where the money goes indicates where the heart is, so in that sense God can measure our spirituality by our generosity. i know in my life, if hardship never came, there are many good, imporant, valuable lessons that i never would have learned. And i don't begrudge God causing me pain, if it teaches me an important lesson... doesn't paul say the same idea in 1 cor 11:30 that people in the corinthian church were sick and or dying because they did not have the right heart attitude about the communion service? | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 381 Registered: 10-2001 |
whatever you do should be done in faith, so I definately would never tell anyone they have t tithe. I'm a cheerful tither, I love it, I can't wait to see how God is going to come through, it's exciting because He has me living on a "supplying my needs and not much more" at the present, due to my own immaturity I'm sure. Last week the tithe was 160.00 and He used my crazy estranged soon-to-be-ex to give me 200.00. Without me even asking! Now that is miraculous!  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2090 Registered: 3-2004  |
I no longer tithe, but when God impresses me to give a certain amount for various reasons, I give it. I give more than the tithe when I put it together and you know what??? I have enough left over to take care of me. I give a certain amount every pay day, then when God says, give to this cause I do it. I do it cheerfully and not reluctantly. When I tithed I always said, now show me that blessing you promise in Mal 3:10. I much prefer giving money this way, even when I give more. God is so good and so awesome. Diana | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 382 Registered: 10-2001 |
He is, good to hear from you Diana! Love ya girl! | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2005 |
Here is a neat site on tithing law. http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithing.htm | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2117 Registered: 3-2004 |
Pigeonite, Welcome to FAF. I see you are a newcome, but I do not remember seeing your name. Must be a senior citizen lapse. Sabra, I was sending you stuff, but you changed your e-mail and I got things back. I think of you often. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 551 Registered: 4-2000 |
BANNED ADVENTIST TODAY TITHING THREADS FOUND As I was browsing through some of my extensive tithing files today, I discovered that I have downloaded copies of many threads from the former AT forum. I understand that these tithing threads were eventually banned, closed, and destroyed due to intense pressure coming from William Johnsson, Adventist Review editor, and others at the General Conference headquarters. Indeed, these destroyed AT tithing threads were powerful, comprehensive, and biblical. In short, they were a real threat to Adventism. Here is a brief sampling from that lengthy tithing thread (posted by Michael Webb on Thursday, May 27, 1999--12:32 pm): "Some people also mention that it is not certain whether or not Abram's tenth was something that was continued or if it was a one time gift. By listening closely to how people approach this subject with Abram, they are actually saying that Abram didn't give tithes 'prior' to the war. This would imply that Abram wasn't actually required to give tithes regularly. If this was the case, how can Christians refer to his 'one time' tenth as an example for Christians today since Christians are mandated by church leaders to give a tenth 'regularly'? Let's look at it this way. There is only one recorded war that Abram was a part of, and this one recorded incident, Abram gave a tenth of 'everyting'. Hebrews 7:4 says that he gave a tenth of the plunder. These are the only real facts that we can deal with. Within the facts that are available, Abram must have given a tenth of the spoils. Since this is the case, why are Christians required to give a tenth of their income regularly if Christians are not currently victorious over some defeated nation? Where is the loot? How does (regular) income today relate to the (one time offering of) spoils of war? It doesn't. It is as simple as that. Income is income and spoils are spoils. Christians have even distorted this passage about Abram to somehow have something to do with money today. Just because Abram gave a tenth of something to Melchizedek doesn't mandate that I, or any other Christian, try and do the same thing. If that were the case, then I would be mandated to emulate other things that he did, like having more than one wife. In addition, Christians today aren't emulating what Abram did anyway since we are rarely at war, and therefore, we don't have the spoils to offer like he did. We offer money from our paychecks instead and mistakenly think we are doing what he did." In 1998, Michael Webb co-authored a book with his twin brother, Mitchell, entitled "Beyond Tithes and Offerings." I am delighted to have this excellent, 328-page book in my library. The above quote from the former AT discussion forum reveals why the GC leaders were very nervous about the potential of these discussions. Dennis J. Fischer |
