| Author | Message | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2005 |
Staying inside the church, for me, was to say that I supported what I found on the GC Site, and what I found in their belief system, no matter that the church I attended was very similar to the one I currently attend. The pastor never quoted EGW, was grace based, the children's departments used evangelical kids materials, etc..., but we found we had to leave because 1)we didn't believe what the church name stood for 2)because of the law of sin and death, the kids my children were growing up with and many of our friends were living in rebellion which is the opposite of living in the Spirit - even if one is rebelling against something wrong, rebellion is rebellion, and it creates a negative heart and attitude for growing in Christ. Other churches may be legalistic, and probably are causing a law of sin and death in their body... that's why we found a grace based church even if it's full of quirky people. Lisa | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1245 Registered: 7-2003  |
Is there a grace-based church NOT full of quirky people?  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2178 Registered: 3-2004  |
I like the quote I have often heard and that is the church is a hospital for sinners, not saints. So, yes, there are quirky people in any church. They are human. BUT, I cannot see their heart. Only God can. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3186 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lisa, I so understand your point of view. Your reasoning (including the effect of Adventism on your children) is much like the reasoning behind Richard's and my leaving. Stan, I also understand your comments. I am also "turned off" by the legalistic preaching of some very law-based Christian preachers. While I would never recommend those particular preachers/churches to someone, still for me at this moment, I can see that the basic foundation of the Baptist or even many Pentecostal churches is actually the gospel. While that foundation doesn't necessarily propel me to worship with them, still I see them as being different from Adventism because there is actually something there that could be reformed. In Adventism, I don't see a basis for reform. For repentance and starting over,yes--but not reform. It's like one of the people on that video of the WCG said: The whole theological system was corrupt. It couldn't be fixed; it had to be demolished! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1166 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, I basically agree with you, but there are a lot of testimonials I read from people on this board who find out that a lot of other churches are not really that much different from Adventism. My theory as to why this might be true is because since Adventism came out of Wesleyan Methodism which is strongly Arminian, and was also highly influenced by the free-will gospel of Charles Finney, well this free-will gospel is still strongly ingrained in much of mainstream Christianity. The true gospel of Grace which Martin Luther spoke about so well has largely been abandoned. Luther said if salvation even in the slightest way had anything to do with our free-will, then we know nothing of grace. So very few Christians today can even articulate the basic doctrine of Justification by faith alone. Surveys have proven this. Most people think our salvation is dependent ultimately on works. That is why R.C. Sproul has written so eloquently on how the evangelical church of today is so much like Roman Catholicism today that many times it is hard to distinguish them, because if our works are really what determines our salvation, then grace is no longer grace. But, again, I am not defending Adventism in any way, and you are right Colleen about Adventism being unreformable, but we ned to be alert about the very similar mistakes other churches are making. Stan | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2005 |
I attend a Seventh Day Baptist Church and find it to be just what I needed! It is Bible-based and believes in Salvation through Jesus Christ ONLY. NOTHING else saves us. They do worship on Saturday, but don't believe this saves us. They accept and interact with other Christian Churches. When we were looking for a Church after leaving the SDA's, my husband wanted to keep attending on Saturday if possible. While I was looking for a good Bible-based Church, I came across the SDB website. I emailed the Pastor and we spent quite a bit of time dialoguing before I was comfortable visiting the SDB Church. Our Pastor's favorite comment when studying is "keep your finger on the text". The first time we attended they were studying Galatians! I kept waiting to find out "what they really believe" (those hidden beliefs you only find out about later as in the SDA Church)! After attending regularly for about a year, we decided to join the Church. So far, I have only found Bible-based doctrine and the Gospel of Grace. They believe in letting the Holy Spirit be our guide, not man, when studying scripture. There is room to question, discuss and disagree on non-salvational points, but there is full agreement in Salvation by Grace, not works. Another good thing about this Church is that the pastor really understands the difference between SDB and SDA (Salvation through Grace, not by works). He is quick to point out if I am seeing something through SDA filters. He is very encouraging and yet keeps me from slipping into an SDA-influenced viewpoint. The people at our Church show by their actions how different it is to have that assurance of Salvation. They are so HAPPY and Grace-filled! I can approach anyone there for prayer and support. They are a praying Church - that is the first thing I noticed when visiting. They really pray for and encourage each other. This is a sincere praying - not I'll pray for you in a glib sort of way. And they love to share how God is working in their lives - not bragging, but giving glory. I have found such a wonderful fun, sincere, Grace-filled family! For me, it doesn't matter what day I formally worship on, it's the experience of coming together with fellow Christians that is important. We don't "keep" the Sabbath in the SDA way. I had already come to understand about my rest being in Jesus, not in a day. I was comfortable visiting "Sunday" Churches and thought that was were I would ultimately land. But, my husband is still a bit unsure about the New Covenant view. He is really growing through our connection with the SDB Church. Here's a funny, telling aside - I keep typing SDA when I mean to type SDB because that is what my fingers were "trained" to do! I MUST BREAK THAT HABIT! There is a world of difference between the SDB and SDA Churches. I don't consider the SDA Church even Christian anymore - they are so far off base in their doctrine that they truely deny Jesus' death on the cross for our Salvation. The SDB Church believes that is the ONLY thing that saved us (past tense!) if we confess our sins and believe on Him. That is a HUGE difference! So, while I thought I needed to find a "Sunday" Church to heal from SDAism, I am finding that the SDB Church is exactly what I needed at this time! I think it is our pastor's understanding of the differences that makes it a good place for us. He keeps challenging our thinking! He can see our old SDA indoctrination peeking through once in a while and calls us on it - in a loving way! Our Church is just down the street from a large SDA Church and we get quite a few visitors. We can spot them coming because of their dour demenor! They are always surprised to find us so different - even though we "keep the Sabbath"! I think it is a shock for them to find out that being Christians can be FUN! I'm sure they think we are all mixed up because we have such freedom in Christ. "What? No rules? You eat pork!?" But we have several "Formers" there now! Anyway - this got off the subject of the thread a bit! I just wanted to say that it's important to find a Church that is true to the Gospel, regardless of the "Denomination". I think there are "good" and "not-so-good" true Christian Churches. God will lead us to where we need to be if we let Him! -tisha | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 198 Registered: 10-2005 |
Stan, I was wondering how you were defining free-will. Are you saying that we do not have free will to accept salvation, that you believe this has already been decided for us? Also, once saved, our will no longer will have anything to do with our salvation. If we turn from the truth and become lost (or backslide) after being saved, our will has nothing to do anymore with whether we are going to heaven. I am going to heaven no matter how far I go against the will of God? I am saved today, tomorrow and years to come and on through eternity. I know this is right, the bible tells me so. I feel secure and confident in this. This the basis for Justification by faith alone? But what happens if I someday allow little sins into my life that then grow into big sins and my guilding light goes out and I feel as lost as when I wasn't a Christian. Or even if I become lost because I choose to no longer believe in Jesus in my heart because I couldn't hold up in times of trouble or something. Wouldn't it be deceptive for me to think I'm still going to heaven unless I repent, ask forgiveness and once again give my heart to Jesus? I'm not speaking in terms of saved today, lost tomorrow. I am not adding works to this, I'm only speaking in terms of whether you think it is possible to take Jesus into your heart and ever lose touch in your heart by backsliding or being deceived. Doesn't Justification by faith remain in our hearts and what if my heart checks out? What is in my heart has nothing to do with works. I think that many people become Adventist and give their hearts sincerely to Jesus knowing that the bible says they will be saved. So lets say some Adventists are saved. That means they will remain saved because they once gave their hearts to Jesus? Even if they remain lifelong Adventists who believed in grace alone but practice works in addition to grace according to the doctrine of their church. It doesn't matter how they live and what they say? If they gave their hearts to Jesus at one time, but don't remain in Him, they are going to heaven? Adventism came out of a lot of things. I don't think it would be fair to only blame Wesleyan Methodism for the fact that Adventism adds works. Are you saying that God has chosen certain people in this world who will be saved because God chose them only. And the ones who are going to hell, he didn't choose them? Isn't this contrary to what 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says: This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Perhaps that is why some narrow this belief down now to 144,000. Something though, that I can agree with you on though is where you said no matter the denomination, New Covenant, Non-Denominational, Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Methodist, etc. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, because the core is accurate. None of those churches claims to be the remnant as does the Seventh-day Adventist Church. However, I must disagree with you on one point. I don't believe the Protestant churches today are much like Roman Catholicism. I think only the Catholics would want us to believe that. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1167 Registered: 3-2005 |
Tisha, I have no proble recommending a Seventh-day Baptist church. It looks like you have found a good one, as I did in Riverside. It was a perfect two year bridge for me when I cam out of Adventism. Lynne, As usual you have asked a lot of questions that are so very important, that I don't know where to start-Wow! A lot of these questions theologians have been debating for centuries. It is not what theologians say, but it is whether what they say agrees with the Bible that counts. Since you asked about why I think much of potestantism has been slouching towards Rome, I would like to link this article by R.C. Sproul that I alluded to above www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/PelagianCaptivity.pdf When Martin Luther broke away from the Roman church, he had a famous debate with a Catholic theologian named Erasmus and this debate is printed in the classic book "Bondage of the Will". Rome taught that man was not so depraved that he could not by his own free will choose God. Luther argued that Romans 3:11 taught that there is no one who seeks God. Ephesians 2 says that we were dead in our tresspasses and sins, and He made us alive. We had a very good discussion on the concept of free will on the "Salvation of Children" thread in late November 05. I know this subject is very controversial, and it tends to upset a lot of people. But I believe, like the Reformers, that the Bible teaches that our own sinful natures are so thoroughly corrupt that we have no ability to choose Christ unless a miracle of new birth occurs first. In American culture, because of the influence of Charles Finney mentioned in Sproul's article, altar calls became popular. Before the mid-1800's no one heard of the altar-call. This idea that we are the ones who decide when we become saved is not supported by Scripture. Salvation is a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit to resurrect our dead spirits by the same power that resurrected Christ from the grave. We become saved by a miracle of new birth at a time of God's own choosing. This can be while we are still infants, oreven in the womb as in the case of John the Baptist. (See Luke 1) John 1:13 "children born not of natural descent, NOR OF HUMAN DECISION OR A HUSBAND'S WILL, BUT BORN OF GOD." That text is one of the strongest proofs that it is not of our own choosing that we become born again. Yes, I know a text like this is not mentioned very often in this culture of decisional regeneration. I am still sorting out the implications of the above text. Wayne Grudem says about this text, "how many of us chose when to be born and to be born, so why should it be any different when our souls are resurrected to life?" John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.. These very words of Jesus are very important, but are frequently ignored because it doesn't fit with some of our preconceived opinions. That word DRAW is important. Some have said that draw only means "woo", or "entice". Such is not the case, because if you look at other places in the New Testament where this word is used, then the menaing becomes clear. James 2:6 "Are they not the ones who are DRAGGING you into court? So here the same word means dragging. So literally in John 6:44, the Father DRAGS us to safety in Jesus. He DRAGS us to safety when we could never do it ourselves. Acts 16:19 "They DRAGGED THEM INTO THE MARKETPLACE". The same Greek word is used in all three places. Gerhard Kittel's Theological Dictionary says that the word translated "draw" in John 6:44 means "to compel by irresistible authority". This is where the reformers got the doctrine of 'Irresistable grace'. John 6:37 says "All that the Father gives me will come to me..." So the Father drags us to Christ "kicking and screaming" (as was the case of C.S. Lewis, as well in my own life.} The only other way to interpret the above passages would be to say that God draws everyone in the same way, and then we get universalism, and we know that that is not the case. John 15:16 Jesus says "You did not choose me, but I chose you". Matthew 11:27.."No one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him." Those statements are very clear. When we talk of the necessity of choosing to follow Christ, that is also definitely true. We choose to follow Him in a response to being mad alive by the glorious transforming work of Grace that the Holy Spirit does to open our eyes. This message is not popular. Notice also in John 6, when Jesus started this famous sermon, 5000 people were there when it started. How many were left when Jesus finished speaking? John 6:65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the father has enabled him." In verses 66, and 67 it says they all left except the twelve remaining disciples. The other point you made, Lynne, about deciding on your own to sin and deciding you don't want salvation is the logical conclusion of the free-will message. If you can decide to be born again of your own free will, then you can decide to be unborn by your own free-will. The Bible clearly teaches that when we are born again, we have crossed over from death to life (John 5:24) If that life is eternal, then you can't lose it. Since the new birth transforms us, then our hearts are transformed and we desire to do the will of God. He changes our will forever. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2005 |
Stan, First, let me begin with why I believe one can lose their salvation and I truly believe none of it is inconsistant with the bible and all of the scripture you have posted above. A good place for me to start is with my own experience. My husband believes as you do. He has been a Christian for over 25 years now. When he told me this, that there is no way that a person can be saved and then become lost, we discussed it extensively without using scripture as reference and I accepted his belief at that time though it did bring me to a place of great confusion over my own Adventist experience. It didn't make sense. When I am confused, I pray and set it aside until I have time to sort it out with scripture. I can tell you that I have found scripture that makes sense to me and is consistant with my experience. I can tell you as surely as I believe the bible to be the Word of God, I was saved when I began with the Adventists through reading and understanding much of the bible correctly myself. As I later became an Adventist, the twisting of the truth eventually took me away from the bible and the truth therein. I can tell you as surely as I believe the bible to be the Word of God, I became lost. I think that there are other former Seventh-day Adventists that if they deeply search their hearts, will escape the confusion with this conclusion. My husband would say, well, if you were saved, you were saved. You are where you are now because you were saved already. That is fine for him to say and to believe. But, what I am seeing in the scripture and my experience right now is not telling me this. I believe John 1:13, shouldn't be read out of context (capitalization below is for emphasis, not shouting): "11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who BELIEVED IN HIS NAME, HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GODó 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 6:44 - If we continue reading, we see the word believe again: "44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'THEY WILL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.'[d] EVERYONE WHO LISTENS TO THE FATHER AND LEARNS FROM HIM COMES TO ME. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, he who BELIEVES has everlasting life." "he who BELIEVES has everlasting life." What happens when a believer stops believing? John 15 is my absolute favorite. The vine and the branches. John 15:16 does say "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruitófruit that will last." I wholeheartedly accept this and believe it. But do not leave out the fact that John 15:1-4 absolutely does not say "once saved always saved" - 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2HE CUTS OFF EVERY BRANCH THAT BEARS NO FRUIT, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already made clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4REMAIN IN ME, AND I WILL REMAIN IN YOU. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. Furthermore, John 15:6-8 says: "IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED. 7IF YOU REMAIN IN ME AND MY WORDS REMAIN IN YOU, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." I have interpreted Matthew 27 differently. Matthew 27-29 says: 27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." There is nothing in context in Matthew 11:27 that tells me once saved always saved, especially if God want everyone to be saved (as shown in Timothy 2:3-4). I believe that at sometime in every persons life God shows us miracles. Otherwise we would be born lifeless. He is life. We can choose to accept His mercy or reject it. We are told that GOD is the ALMIGHTY and POWERFUL ONE, NOT US, in verse 27. He does choose who He will reveal himself to. God is not revealed only in the word "saved" only in one moment. That is only the beginning. That is when we are born again. In this special ongoing relationship that begins when we are saved, and when we stay in the Word of God, He does reveal Himself to believers through Jesus. If it is my belief that I am once saved always saved, I believe I would be much more likely to be selfish and complacent. Because I was saved, not made sinless, I would be inclined to think from time to time that God saved me, because He chose me and that particular sinner refuses and well, He probably wasn't chosen by God. And my family, God will save them some day. All I need to do is pray and it will be done. I'll try to be an example, but the sinner that I am... well. Now if I think that I could fall away from God, would I not be more proactive? If in your conclusion as you say our hearts are transformed, THEN WE WOULD NEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD, would we? There is no question in my mind that the word BELIEVE can be connected in any way with WORKS or CHOSEN. These are all separate and defined differently. What prevents us from being vain, is staying in the Word as stated in 1 Corinthians 15 1:2 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. I have in no way ever concluded that I have saved myself because I believe in Jesus. I've just concluded that I've not ignored or taken for granted his mercy THIS TIME. The mercy is in Him dying for my sins. Let us not be blind to the fact that the Bible says remain in me and I will remain in you. Stan, it is my hope and prayer that we will both stay in the Word of God (aka The Armor of God), and keep that as our authority. I also pray that the people who come to this forum for understanding with a sincere heart to know Him will stay in the Bible, in the Word of God. I believe I am a stronger person now and with all certainty, I am saved and will be in Heaven. I will check out the R.C. Sproul link a little later today or tomorrow. Lynne | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 415 Registered: 7-2004  |
Ah, the paradox of Scripture. It teaches both. We have assurance. Take care that you do not fall away. One possibility is that both are true. Before you call for a review of my medications, let me add that our failure to understand items like this simply points to how much bigger God is than our understanding. I am becoming more inclined to just accept that both of these are true. Much like I can be both sinner and righteous in God's sight at the same time. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1249 Registered: 7-2003 |
Amen, Ric. I'm with you! | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2004 |
I'm inclined to agree with Ric on this. A similar issue is the tension between man's free will and God's sovereignty. I believe,(don't completely understand) that both are true. Perhaps one of the reasons why we struggle with some of these ideas is because of the way the ancient Jews conceptualized things. In some ways ancient Jewish thought structures were akin to Eastern thought structures. We see this, for example, in Jesus teaching that whoever wanted to be first needed to place themselves last. If we truly wish to live, we must die. In ancient Buddhist texts, one finds the same type of expressions. Often, in Eastern thought, instead of an "either/or" we find "both". We need to remember that the Bible writers were not modern Europeans. Their thought structures were different and they expressed themselves differently. Even Paul, who certainly understood the Greek mind, was still a Jew. In addition, we need to remember that not only are we saved by faith, we also must live by faith. We will not understand everyting in this life. But He gives us plenty of evidence to trust Him. Even Peter had trouble understanding some things. HE IS AWESOME Dane | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3202 Registered: 12-2003 |
I love the paradox of truth! I love that God is bigger than I can understand, and I love that He is sovereign over me and my free will! Do I understand all this? Not reallyóbut I feel greatly relieved and comforted to know that God is completely sovereign over all of life, creation, and salvationóyet simultaneously my choices have eternal consequences. I think one of the greatest reliefs for me is that I don't have to understand and figure it all out anymore. The question "Why" is no longer the most important thing (to borrow an idea from Patria again). Instead, eternity and knowing Jesus is the most important thing. I can live with the paradox much better than I can live with making the Bible fit my theology--as I did for so many years. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2188 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I agree with you about loving it that God is bigger than us and that I do not have to understand him and He is sovereign over me and my free will. I no longer have to make the Bible fit my beliefs and I can read it, in context and understand it so much better. Thank you God, you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 |
Thanks Ric_b, Colleen and others; I have been following things here intermittently but said little the past months. Pray for us (myself and my wife). We have tough work here. Battling old enslaving thought patterns and rigidity in the local community of sdas. I have been blessed this evening by your confidence in the work of God in maturing and leading us. As some here have said, Praise God for the new acquaintance with the Holy Spirit and the freedom he brings ñ freedom from having to get all the answers ìrightî in order to sleep soundly. Paul Cross | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1169 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric_b, I am not sure what you are really saying in your last post. Are you saying that it is true we have assurance of salvation, but at the same time there is a possibility of losing our salvation? If that is what you are calling a paradox, then I would be puzzled. Believing that I could lose my salvation would be a serious hindrance to my walk with God. The more I think of what salvation really is, the more I am dead certain the Bible is CRYSTAL clear about our eternal security. Lynne, I know you have recently left SDA, and were in Catholicism also at one time. I appreciate that you are studying scripture carefully. However, we are on the opposite ends of a spectrum here, and for now we will probably have to agree to disagree. Paul, in Ephesians 1 says verse 4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world...he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace..." This is very exciting to me. He chose me long before the foundation of the world to be His child. If,I take the Bible literally, then, just that fact alone means that I am eternally secure in Christ! Why fight that kind of good news? And He chose me according to what? On the basis of me accepting him, and because He knew that I would make a choice to serve Him? No, that would be adding to the scripture. Look what it says, He chose us according to HIS pleasure and WILL,--not OUR WILL. Eph. 1:11 "In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined (there is that evil word predestination again which nobody likes to hear), according to the PLAN OF HIM who works out everything in conformity with THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL." Notice it is His will and not our will. I am reading about a God who leaves nothing to chance regarding our salvation. Eph. 1:13 "...Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is A DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THOSE..." Is there a way to interpret this to mean that we can lose our salvation? Think of it, an iron-clad guarantee that we will be redeemed. Just typing this inspires me. It just goes on and on in Ephesians 1 and 2. Ephesians 2:4 ff "...God who is rich in mercy, made us alive (There it is again, it is God who resurrects our dead spirits and makes us alive in Christ) in Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (a spiritually dead corpse can't raise itself from the dead),--it is by grace you have been saved. And GOD RAISED US UP WITH CHRIST AND SEATED US WITH HIM IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS IN CHRIST JESUS.." This scripture is telling us that the only way we could lose our salvation, is if Christ were to lose his position in the Trinity, and that is not going to happen. This is the gospel. Adventism, some of pentecostalism, and Rome teaches a different gospel. These people all teach that salvation is really up to us in the end, and not of God. Everything the Bible teaches says that Salvation is of our God. Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined (there is that word again) he also called; those he called, he also justified;those he justified, he also glorified." This is an airtight case that there is no room for anyone who is predestined and called to be lost. It doesn't say "some of those he called will be glorified", but the strong implication is that all he called will also be glorified. Then Romans 8 goes on.."IfGod is for us, who can be against us? I wish I had more time, but it goes on to say that NOTHING can separate from the love of God. The gospel of John is filled with the words of Jesus himself making promise after promise of our absolute security. John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word...will not be condemned; HE HAS CROSSED OVER FROM DEATH TO LIFE." Now that life is eternal, so how can someone keep crossing over time and again? Adventism teaches that you can fall in and out of grace. That is not possible with a text like that coming from Jesus. John 6, I spent time on yesterday, but it is so clear. Jesus says only the Father can draw (or drag) those to Jesus. And ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and again it is not some that the Father gives me will come to me, but ALL. John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND..." With all these kind of texts that are so clear, there are still those in Adventism, other Arminian circles, and Rome who will go to much more obscure texts where the meaning is not so clear, and then try to use these texts to make folks fear for their salvation. One of the objections I heard in Adventism, is that eternal security just makes us complacent--no, I just find the opposite is true, that the assurance and joy, knowing that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and He guarantees our salvation, and gives us his Spirit to guarantee our salvation, just makes our joy complete, so that we no longer are driven by a spirit of fear. Soli Deo Gloria and Sola Gratia Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 417 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, yes I am suggesting that the paradox of both being true is in fact correct. I concur with every passage that you have posted. But at the same time I think that Calvinism glosses over texts such as Luke 8:13; John 15:6; Rom 11:20-22; I Cor 9:27 & 10:12; Gal 5:4; Phil 2:12; I Tim 1:19; Heb 6:4-6; and Rev 3:5. As strongly as the texts that you have posted are promises of God's assurance, these texts are also warnings from God. SDAism, RCism, and other arminian thought denies the verses that you have posted, and looks simply to the warnings. I read them both and see that they are both clearly stated in Scripture. I can not rationally explain it. Both can not be true (at least in human wisdom and logic), but Scripture which is always true says that both are true. Again and again it says that both are true. Instead of fighting to reconcile them, or discount one set over the other, I have simply chosen to believe that both are true. Probably, at least in part, due to my time in SDAism I have to focus more on the promises of our assurance. I can be quickly assaulted by doubts and these promises are priceless. The rock of confidence allows me to serve Him in love. But I can only know these promises are true to the extent that I can believe that all of His Word is true. Which, for me, means accepting and believing a foolish paradox. I am struck by the awesomeness and mystery of God. A God whose Being and thoughts are far beyond that of mine. I think of God's response to Job in Chapter 38, and see how little we can understand of Him. I find such a God far more worthy of praise and honor than a God who fits in neat little boxes. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 867 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ric, the texts you mentioned seem to be about those people who dabbled in Christ, much the same as the hippies dabbled in this drug or the other, because it seemed interesting at the time, but had not made the heart connect that is required to make it a hard core connection. Once we have become addicted (dependent) upon Christ, then we require Christ and only Christ. I have a heart condition and must take a certain drug regularly, and consistently, or I will experience fainting spells and periods of my heartbeat becoming irregular or my heart will race and become ineffective at moving the blood around my body. There was a time when I was upset about the fact that I am now "addicted" to that heart medication, and I said so to my doctor. He assured me that I was not addicted because I had to mentally remind myself to take it. The better word was "dependant" because without the heart medication my quality of life is unsettled at best, and at least it is at threat. I choose to see my sinful condition like that heart condition. My condition does not go away just because I've taken the medication once. I must continue to take it. I am dependent upon Jesus and I must continue in Jesus. Oh my, this is a poor representation, because Jesus is the one who has made all of the moves and will continue to make all of the moves that assure me of salvation. Romans has told me that all I need is a heart agreement that Jesus is Lord, and that I shall confess that fact with my mouth. It is my joy to shout from the rooftops that Jesus has paid a blood price for my worthless soul, and by making that sacrifice he has made me of great value. He's done it for you, too. All praise, honor, and glory be to Jesus my Savior! Belva | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 729 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, I 100% agree. Having assurance causes us to be bold for the Gospel...it is the "Good News" after all...not the "sort Good News" or the "Might be Good News for Some" or "It's good News if you are good". Know what I mean? I had no assurance in salvation as an SDA and it made me a very Sadventist. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1170 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric, so many of those warnings you are talking about are given to those who would be pretenders. Those texts with warnings which are highly important cannot contradict the absolute truths of scripture. This is where all the subjectivism comes from today, that just destroys faith, because many people will say that you can get whatever teaching you want from the Bible, and you can make the Bible say anything it wants. This is a very dangerous approach to Scripture. One principle of Biblical interpretation that is important is this; You go to the clearest and MOST SPECIFIC scriptures first, where there is didactic teaching and theological discourses, such as Romans 1-11, and Ephesians 1 and 2, and John 5,6, and 10. If absolute promises that in their greek construction have no other way to be interpreted, than exactly the way Jesus Himself or Paul said, then, that is where doctrine must be established. If I just had time, I could go through all those scriptures you mentioned and show how they don't contradict the basic wonderful truths that we base our faith on. Think about what the Biblical definition of salvation is vs. Adventism's view of salvation. Adventism doesn't believe in the human spirit, and thinks salvation is speaking only of our bodies. Since being born of God is not a human decision as John 1:13 asserts, and it means we are given resurrected souls, then is that resurrected spirit eternal, or is it not? When Christ purchased our salvation and paid the penalty for our sins, he suffered the terrible pain of spiritual death, not just physical death, for every sin that His redeemed could possibly commit, even our sins of unbelief. When the God of the universe chose us from the foundation of the world, and the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world for our sins, and the Holy Spirit is given as a deposit GUARANTEEING OUR SALVATION, and when the God of heaven DECLARES US JUSTIFIED, and Christ's righteousness is imputed forever to our account, then that is security. But to get back to all those warning texts, Ric, yes all those texts are true. But this is how I believe they are true. In our evangelical culture there is a gospel of "easy believism" out there which gives false assurance of salvation. One popular book out there says that all you have to do to have assurance of salvation is to "whisper a certain prayer, and now you are welcomed to the Kingdom of God. And we have all heard of the sinner's prayer, or neat little formulas that if you follow them and believe them, then you are saved, or if you went forward at a Billy Graham crusade or some other altar call, then that means you are forever saved. Now, it is really true, this mentality exists. So, by this teaching of many, it does not matter whether there was ever any repentance or change in lifestyle, or change of mind with regard to sin. So many people are going to be surprised when Jesus comes, because they believed the false assurances of some of these teachers, and the Lord will say "I never knew you". So those warnings are out there to warn against this false version of salvation. True Biblical salvation is a true miracle of Resurrection done by God himself. This salvation is done on His timetable and not ours. When this salvation comes, then our spiritual eyes are opened. We become new creatures in Him, that He intended from eternity past. An eternal resurrected spirit has been given. If anyone departs from the faith and renounces Christianity, then it is because they were never saved to begin with. 1 John 2:19ff "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us,, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." That text seems pretty clear. When I was an SDA the song "Blessed Assurance" meant absolutely nothing, but now it has become one of my favorite hymns "Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood." Stan |
