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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:23 am: |     |
Thanks Belva and Pheeki, I was posting at the same time. Both of you said it so well.
Stan |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 418
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:47 am: | |
I think that those text might equally apply to the one who might tend to become proud and trust in themselves rather than relying totally on God. Consider Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
You can not be fallen from what you did not have. We are well aware that the Galatians were converted Christians. See Chapter 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
It appears to me that Paul considers this legalism so bad that it can cause a believer to be severed from Jesus, and to be falled from grace. This is a dire warning to legalists, not easy-believism. And this warning is specifically given one's who had received the Spirit, to Christians. I find it interesting that it isn't failure to work hard enough at being a Christian that causes this severing from Jesus, but instead trying to do the works of the law on order to keep your salvation (again you can't be severed if you aren't attached or fallen from something that you didn't have).
Do you think this is just an idle threat? I believe that this warning is every bit as true as the promise.
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Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 202
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:08 pm: | |
Stan,
It is okay to disagree and am in agreement with you on that. I am not confused, this is what I believe and I don't see that changing unless I see scripture that shows me I am wrong. There are people who are in this world who have been Christian for longer than you that believe as I do. And there are many who believe as I do that are as confident as you in their Eternal Security. And yes, you are correct that this is new to me.
The amount of time it has been since I left Adventism does not make me lesser in my understanding of what I believe the bible clearly says to me. Also, I haven't gone into an Adventist church now for at least 2 years.
I was never a Catholic, I only have a Catholic family. I was raised by a former Catholic single parent. I attended the Catholic church no more than 10 times in my life and it was mostly for funerals.
I agree with John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND..."
I agree with John 10:27 NO ONE CAN SNATCH ME - What this verse tells me is that I am secure, nobody can take me from God. For example, when I was an Adventist, I played a role in being deceived. This is why I believe Colleen is correct in saying all of us who were Adventist need to ask Forgiveness and Repent! I was lied to, but I also lied! I lived a lie. The SDAs did not snatch me away from God and I cannot entirely blame them for me falling away from Jesus, no matter how elaborate the lie.
When you speak of Ephesians 1, your definition of pre-predestination, you are speaking of certain people. If this is true, why doesn't it say CERTAIN PEOPLE. If God has pre-destined CERTAIN PEOPLE to receive salvation, then why did He command us to go out and do evangelism? I don't believe it is just about ME.
If God has pre-destined only some people to receive salvation, then why does the Bible say that God "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"? (1 Timothy 2:4).
I believe it actually speaks to us who are saved because we can understand this. And yes, we are adopted, but do adopted children always follow their parents? Is there ever a time that a parent has to let go because of severe hardening of the heart against the parent? You are saying this is not possible after we are saved? The bible doesn't tell me that it isn't possible for people who are saved to turn away from God and harden their hearts. All of the above scripture I quoted I think clearly is consistent. I also believe it is consistant with all of Ephesians 1, which is absolutely beautiful.
How does the following scripture fit in with Ephesians 1. Would God make scripture inconsistent! I don't think so.
2 Timothy 2 says if we disown Him, he will disown us.
John 15:5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Epehsians - 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willó 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentóto bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionóto the praise of his glory.
I am not taking sentences of verses out of scripture to make a point, I'm reading them in context. I did learn from my Adventist experience, that taking from scripture one verse here and there can make anything sound right according to any doctrine such as Ellen White. I no longer stand on the softer approach that Hell is Annihilation either. I am comforted in knowing God is just and gives us fair warning.
Blessings to you.
Lynne
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3210
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:13 pm: | |
You know, I just had a thought as I was reading this thread. First, everyone posting hereóas I read you!óis certain of and secure in their salvation. I do not hear Lynne or Rick fearing they're in danger of falling out of salvation any more than Stan fears it.
I do not think that believing Scripture contains warnings for us to take seriously means one is uncertain of salvation or believes one is in danger of losing his own. (Again, I'm trying to think how these ideas look from reading your respective posts.)
I believe the mark of the Holy Spirit in all of our lives is what makes each of usówhether or not we believe the Scriptural warnings are for believers or unbelieversócertain of our own salvation. Romans 8:13-17 say that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirits that we are children of God. When one has been born again and adopted into God's family, he knows it because the Holy Spirit witnesses to us of that fact.
The ages-old differences of understanding of the warnings and the admonitions to choose to follow Jesus do not define "saved" or "lost". I believe both "hard-line" Calvinists and "hard-line" Arminians can be unsavedóor saved. The essence is whether or not a person knows JesusóKNOWS Jesus, not just knows ABOUT Jesus.
Here's the thought I had reading this thread: Clearly the absolute promises of assurance and new birth are in Scripture to assure us all that when we are in Christ, we do not have to fear falling out of Him. He Himself holds us and keeps us. We do not effect or insure our own salvation. Jesus does all of it.
Those of us who were imprinted with the fear of being lost, the fear of not obeying, the fear of never measuring up, the fear of perfecting our characters, the fear that we must discipline ourselves into perfection in order to be savedówe absolutely NEED these unwavering promises to hold us securely in our new-ish postures of trust. If we had any doubt about the security of our salvation, even learning the gospel would seem like "almost good news".
On the other hand, there are people who were imprinted quite the opposite way. Instead of being taught from birth on up that they were unworthy and flawed and in need of perfecting, discipline, and in danger of hell, they were taught that they were quite all right, thank you very much! God would surely smile on them because they were generous, competent, altruistic, involved in social and religious pursuits..etc. They have little sense of being ultimately unworthy.
When people such as this come to know Jesus, they have to learn humility in ways the first group doesn't. While pride is an issue for us all, still, the idea of depending always and completely upon Jesus might seem more like a relief to some of us and more like submission to others.
Now, I don't mean to suggest that these differing warnings and promises are for different groups of people necessarily. I'm just saying that God knew the sorts of confidence, reassurance, and certainty all of us need as we grow in Him.
And this brings me back to my first point: everyone here who is disucssing this subject is confident of their eternal security. That is the proof of the Holy Spirit at work in us.
As for our interpretation of these other points, I believe that God teaches us these things over timeóand I just have to observe that great men and women of God interpret these points somewhat differently without compromising their security or their authority.
That being said, I do believe that a low view of God and His sovereignty does smack of heresy. He IS sovereign; He IS God over all, Lord of lords and King of kings. He IS sovereign over salvation and justice. He IS All-in-All!
But I don't hear anyone on this thread disagreeing with the idea of God's absolute sovereignty.
He is completely trustworthy.
Colleen
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1172
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
Ric, I think you said you were in the process of reading Luther's Galatians. I don't remember what he said about Gal. 5:4, but I will check it out. I can't imagine Paul is saying to the Galatian believers that they have fallen from their salvation. Because I am basically a legalistic person, I fall from grace every day, I admit I need that reminder almost every day, but that does not mean that I lose my salvation every day. It is ironic Ric, that that text was used all the time by my SDA father to always prove to me that I could fall from grace. But now that he is a former SDA himself, he says now it is not possible for a true believer to lose their salvation.
Lynne, if I implied that because you were recently out of SDA, that you somehow didn't understand the scriptures, that is not what I meant. I was just projecting my own experience shortly after leaving SDA, in that I remained for several years very Arminian in my thought. It was only after a lot of study over about 5 years, that I realized the whole basic structure of Adventism was faulty, because it was based on faulty views of God's sovereignty. When I started reading what Luther really said about our total inability to come to Christ on our own, and the other Reformers, and found what they said was based on scripture, and not Roman tradition, then, that is when I changed my entire perspective on this issue. The Reformation faith was really standard evangelical faith until Rome sent out people to influence Jacob Arminius who influenced John Wesley, who in turn was the primary influence on Ellen White. These people all had a low view of God's sovereignty, and a high view of man's free-will. The reformers were just the opposite, and took a very high view of God's sovereignty, and a low view of free-will. But it doesn't mean that you are not just as saved as I am, I might submit however, just from my own experience, that living the Christian life knowing absolutely that there is nothing I could do to lose my salvation is so much easier than the way it was like in Adventism. (smiley)
Colleen, there is a sense though in which we might be disagreeing on the definition of what absolute sovereignty in salvation means. Again, maybe I have been overly divisive on this thread, and maybe over combative at times, as I am very passionate about this topic. When a person grew up as staunch SDA as I did, then I want to get as far away from Adventism and its roots as I can. So you are right about the reasons I am posting as I am. The Investigative Judgment still is a terrible memory, but I see similarities to this doctrine in other Arminian congregations with different terminology, but the same ideas.
Sola Gratia,
Stan |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 203
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 7:44 pm: | |
Stan,
I got the CD today - Thanks! I will listen to it over the weekend.
It is true we have had different experiences. I became an Adventist through listening to their logic and buying into the deception. I didn't read the bible when I was young. I was always told religion was bad. But I was taught Catholics weren't bad because most of our family was Catholic.
I did embrace the bible and much of what I read in the bible when I started with the Adventists. I believed with all of my heart in Jesus and the Holy Spirit was unmistakenly alive in me and I could see things very clearly unlike before I got there. When I saw inconsistency with the Adventist teachings and the bible, I sometimes overlooked that. I was much younger than I am now and less mature. Through all of what Adventism is, I believe I eventually became lost. I personally don't think anyone can be lost in a day.
Now I know better. I will read my bible and pray before and after I read it and pray throughout the day and ask for forgiveness when I sin. I now know I am secure in my salvation and I am grateful for that.
I understand what you are saying about wanting to get as far from Adventism as possible. If something seems like Adventism, I've been getting chills from it. Perhaps we can't help but have flashbacks from it sometimes, it was at times a tramatic false reality. So as Colleen often says, we have to try to see things in a realistic sense, which I think we mostly do, but you have been away from that mindset longer than me. Yet you experienced this as a child and I couldn't bring myself to take my kids to church. I was so out of touch, I probably could have lost my mind trying to figure out why I couldn't bring my kids to the Adventist church, yet had to at some point!
Lynne
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Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 420
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:17 pm: | |
Stan, some excerpts from Luther on Gal 5:4
quote:"Ye are fallen from grace" That is to say, you are no longer in the Kingdom. For as he that is in a ship drowns if he falls into the sea, even so he which is fallen away from grace must perish. He therefore that must be justified by the law has made shipwreck and cast himself into the danger of eternal death.....These words, "ye are fallen from grace", must not be coldly or slenderly considered; for they are weighty and of great importance. He who falls from grace utterly loses the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty and life that Jesus Christ has merited for us by His death and resurrection.
The concepts that I presented in the initial post about the paradox of both being true closely parallels a section from the book The Foolishness of God: The Place of Reason in the Theology of Martin Luther by S. W. Becker 1982.
Lutheran theology appears far more comfortable with mystery and paradox in understanding God than does either Calvinism or Arminianism.
I agree with you entirely about the beauty of monergism. I learned the term after I was already settling into that belief.
My emphasis on trying to absolutely accept what Scripture says without explaining it away, even when doing so requires accepting paradox and mystery is also a direct reaction to SDAism. In SDAism everything had to have a definitive answer and all texts that did not agree with or support that answer could be safely re-phrased or ignored. Logical conclusions could start over-riding Scriptural statments (consider the SDA arguments for annilihationism) When I read 5-point TULIP Calvinism I see some of the same thing going on. And if we were to draw a continuum I would clearly be much closer to Calvinism than to Arminianism. But I would rather accept that I can't fully understand God than to willing set aside any of what I read in Scripture. SDAism asked me to do that too much, I have no interest in returning.
So yes, our experiences likely do influence how we look at doctrines now. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1173
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 12:50 am: | |
Good points Ric, and thanks for the Luther quotes. Did Luther say though that a person monergistically regenerated, that is truly born again with a resurrected soul could lose their salvation? I would be interested if he said that. I see what he was saying in the quote above, but I am not sure he was saying that the true believers who had been influenced by these false Galatian teachers. I have my Luther's Galatians book opened in front of me now. From reading the whole section, I don't see a definitive statement applied to a believer who is deceived. In fact Luther also quotes John 3:36 saying that those who believe in the Son hath life. I do believe that these warnings apply to believers, but that it is not ultimately possible for a believer to be lost.
Here is a quote from the Reformation Study Bible edited by R.C. Sproul regarding Galatians 5:4 "That is, they would be renouncing God's grace by no longer relying on it. Those who are chosen in Christ will be kept from such a renunciation of the gospel, and Paul continues to have confidence that his warning will be heeded."
I have read quotes from Calvinistic authors Ric that do acknowledge that these warnings are for real and they do apply to believers. Even Sproul acknowledges this in the Reformation Study Bible under 1 Cor 9:27 that you referred to above. Here is an excerpt regarding the statement "lest I become disqualified" "This statement has often been used as evidence that Christians can lose their salvation. The witness of the New Testament is that those whom God has brought to Himself are His forever (Romans 8:28-30) because the life they have been given is eternal in character...However it would be wrong to dismiss or minimize Paul's concern by suggestin that it is merely hypothetical or relates only to rewards and not salvation. Paul was confident that absolutely nothing would be able to separate him from God's love, but he never presumed that he was saved regardless of what he did. No Christian can afford to take lightly the warnings of scripture." So, Ric, that statement from Sproul seems to be very close to what you are saying. And I am very glad to hear that you acknowledge monergistic regeneration. So the Reformed vs. Lutheran view seems to be very close. It seems that these warnings are against the sin of presumption. Even though these warnings are real, the actual fact is that a truly born again believer will never be lost according to many of the above scriptures, but a truly born again believer will never presume on God's grace either. So, in a sense there is a paradox.
Stan
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Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 421
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 10:08 am: | |
Stan, I think that your comment here is much closer to what I am talking about.
quote:Even though these warnings are real, the actual fact is that a truly born again believer will never be lost according to many of the above scriptures, but a truly born again believer will never presume on God's grace either. So, in a sense there is a paradox.
I would probably re-word it slightly (I am a control freak) because I would want to give each statement a little more equivalence. By placing one in front of the other it seems to alter the meaning and priority slightly. But I do think that you are approaching what I mean by accepting that it is a paradox. I think Sproul and Reformed theology in general tries hard to explain this paradox and make it more rational. While I think that these explanations skim the surface of the paradox, they fail to do full justice to the mystery and paradox of God. But then all of our explanations about God probably do little more than skim the surface of truly understanding Him.
You might wish to look at Luther's comments on Galatians 3:3
quote:For the righteousness of the law, which Paul here calls the flesh, is so far from justifying, that they who after receiving the Holy Ghost through the hearing of faith, fall back again into it, are ended in it; that is to say, are utterly destroyed.
It is interesting that the path to falling away is based on trying to keep the law (here and Gal 5:4). This is directly opposite to SDA teaching about how one falls away.
Lutheran and Reformed theology are far more similar than different. And many of those differences are subtle. For instance, both Calvin and Luther viewed sacraments are more than simply symbolic; although they differed in specifically how. Both agree on the depravity of man and monergistic regeneration. Both would agree that election is unmerited, although Luther and Calvin are not in full agreement on what or how election operates. Luther does not conclude that God's grace is irresistable. Based on that, the beliefs also diverge over limited atonement and preservation of the saints.
Sproul is one of my favorite authors and I should probably pick up a copy of the Reformation Study Bible. I had thought that I was ordering it from Amazon some months ago, but ordered the Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible instead. |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 204
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 11:55 am: | |
Stan, I know now that I was truly a born again believer when I became Adventist. Nobody knows my heart but me. So if that is true, you say, I fell, but God ultimately knew, that though my mind changed and my heart hardened, it was hardened by sin, I was still saved and I would eventually come back to Him and I have. I understand this.
When I read about predestination in Ephesians 1, tell me, how could it be that a BABY IS NOT AN ADOPTED CHILD OF GOD? I believe all babies are adopted children of God.
Ephesians 1:5 reads: he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willó
He predestined us.... I believe everyone as stated in 1 Timothy 2 - God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
When I am not living in accordance with God through Jesus, according to His pleasure and will, and my heart becomes hardened because of sin (and it grows harder and harder - sin blinds us!), even though I was once saved, I'm still going to heaven? I know I am not capable of changing my own heart, but, I certainly am capable of changing my mind. And this is not a moment by moment process. Satan wants to deceive us, one deception after another, until we don't see our sin as sin anymore. He will deceive us daily and in every way he can! But Jesus (not me) conquered Him, so I must stay in Him.
Colleen, when you mentioned in another thread about praying for the protection of minds and hearts, I hear you.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Ephesians 1:11IN HIM we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionóto the praise of his glory.
If we keep on sinning, will the Holy Spirit keep convicting us? Yes. Will the Holy Spirit remain in us? At some point I don't believe it will. At least that has been my experience.
John 15:7 Remain in me and I will remain in you.
Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
So that I may have The Armor of God. I will Protect my Mind through the Word of God which is the BIBLE. Then everything else will fall into place. My heart belongs to Jesus.
God knows my heart, He made me, and He foreknew who will ultimately Accept and Reject Him. He is the Mightiest!
Romans 11:5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Thank you Jesus for the Cross!
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1174
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 1:29 pm: | |
Ric, well after all the posting we did back and forth, it looks like we are pretty close over all, and I probably misinterpreted somewhat. It is so difficult some times doing this by typing, especially since I didn't even know how to type before I started posting about a year ago. Thanks for pointing out the differences between Lutheran and Reformed more clearly. I knew they were pretty close. You may have seen me refer to a radio program which can also be listened to online at www.whitehorseinn.org where the panelists are from different divisions of the Reformation spectrum with Presbyterian, Reformed, Reformed baptist, and Lutheran (Dr. Rod Rosenblatt who is excellent) This makes for a lively discussion but they are in agreement most of the time. If you have time to listen, this is Christian radio at it's best. They are going to discuss Romans all 2006--should be great.
The Reformation Study Bible is edited by R.C.Sproul but includes the whole hall of fame of great reformed theologians including of course Wayne Grudem and so many others. It is also in the English Standard Version, which is the hottest new translation, because it is considered the most readable literal word for word translation, and considered the most accurate as in tradition of NASB except more readable. If you are coming out here in February, Ric, I will have a copy for you, if interested.
Lynne, Thanks for being a part of this most interesting discussion. You ask a lot of questions, and I will need to take time to give them thoughtful consideration, so we will continue this discussion soon. In the mean time, you might go back and look at the "Salvation of children" thread back in late November 05 and read what many of us had to say about children being saved. There is a link on one of my posts to an article by John Piper where he affirms like I do that God chose all the children who died before moral accountability. No child will be in hell.
Stan |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 423
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 3:05 pm: | |
Stan, thanks for the link. I plan to download the MP3's on Romans as they discuss it. Discussions on boards are always trickier, particularly when the questions regard nuances around a position that is similar. I get restless when I hear people teach about our cooperation in salvation or in sanctification (which can often be heard among those in any of the divisions of the Reformation spectrum), so you can guess that my overall views are fairly firmly encamped on this side of the spectrum.
Even within the difference in views expressed by posters on this thread, I think an underlying theme can be seen that insist on assurance for believers. There are differences in whether individuals think that a believer can eventually become an unbeliever. But there is a consistent messsage that every believer can be assured of their salvation because salvation isn't based on our righteous works but on His crediting to us His righteousness in place of our filthy rags. Even when I disagree with the specifics of the belief system, I am convinced that this is the distinction between a true and false gospel. RCism, SDAism, and the other cults insist on our righteous works in addition to, or in order to maintain, His free gift. This is my theological "line in the sand", between true and false.
I posted this on another thread, but I would encourage you to check this link to an article on monergistic sanctification. http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/scaer.htm
I haven't looked at the ESV, though I may have to now. I switched to the NASB when I was taking Greek because I was impressed by the accuracy, particularly of verbe tenses.
And yes I will be out there in February. I am looking forward to meeting people I have only posted with so far.
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1175
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 3:31 pm: | |
Ric, thanks for that link. I guess I don't remember you posting that before. I liked the line where "just as no one can raise themselves from the dead, so no one can make himself a Christian." This is clearly affirmed in John 1:13, as it is not a human decision. Our decision to follow Christ is made after we are regenerated solely by the Holy Spirit.
Have you also checked out the website www.monergism.com? There is a good definition of monergistic salvation at the very top of the site. With this web site, I am like a kid in a candy store, and it has a vast library on Calvin, Luther, and so much more. I have to guard against spending to much time there as it is addicting if you love theology as I do.
Stan
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Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 206
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 4:40 pm: | |
Stan,
Please don't confuse my questions with being literal questions. I'm speaking in terms of what makes sense to me.
I am not confused about salvation of children and my statement about being Adopted Children/Babies really wasn't meant to be confused with us being Adopted Children of God after Salvation. I was just referencing that to make a point and the question wasn't a real question that I had.
I didn't have the time to really clarify all that I meant.
Lynne
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3220
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 11:21 pm: | |
Rick, I really appreciated this paragraph above:
"Even within the difference in views expressed by posters on this thread, I think an underlying theme can be seen that insist on assurance for believers. There are differences in whether individuals think that a believer can eventually become an unbeliever. But there is a consistent messsage that every believer can be assured of their salvation because salvation isn't based on our righteous works but on His crediting to us His righteousness in place of our filthy rags. Even when I disagree with the specifics of the belief system, I am convinced that this is the distinction between a true and false gospel. RCism, SDAism, and the other cults insist on our righteous works in addition to, or in order to maintain, His free gift. This is my theological "line in the sand", between true and false. "
You summed up my understanding so well, also!
What an interesting thread, Stan, Rick, and Lynne!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 555
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 1:50 pm: | |
Stan,
Many thanks for the excellent CD about historic and contemporary Catholicism and its papacy. I wholeheartedly agree with John MacArthur's conclusions on this important issue. My pastor has requested that I let him listen to MacArthur's CD sometime this week. Of course, I will gladly grant his wish.
I also notice an increasing desire on the part of the mainline Protestant community to simply accept our Catholics friends as our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (in spite of their false system of worship, bogus priesthood, lack of assurance and identity in Christ, false confessional, Mariology, imposed celebacy, tradition being equal to the Bible, purgatory, prayers for the dead, saint and image worship, papal claims of actually standing in place of the Holy Spirit and being the vicar of Christ on earth, ad infinitum). Like John MacArthur quoted from the late Pope John Paul something to the effect that the Holy Spirit works in all religions (whether Christian or non-Christian). This is a form of universalism in sharp contrast to what the word "Protestant" actually means. Indeed, many Protestants today are not even remotely aware of what that word actually signifies and/or represents; specifically, being "protesters" against the false worship system of Rome.
Theologically, nothing has really changed or improved in Catholicism since the Reformation era. In truth, Catholicism has actually become far more unbiblical and arrogant in many areas(i.e., infallibility of papacy added in 1870, etc.). Yet many Protestants are willing to be in the same boat with them today in joint missionary projects. This misunderstanding further causes some Evangelicals to view Adventism as an authentic Christian religion as well. Our culture seems bent upon being politically-correct in regard to soteriology, homosexuality, exposing false religions, etc. To even disagree or speak out against any false view or immoral lifestyle is now considered a hate crime in some parts of the world. Sadly, many people are destined to simply fall for anything since they aren't against anything.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3223
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:35 pm: | |
Thank you for so clearly saying these things, Dennis. I've thought these thoughts as well. God asks us to be examined, to know Biblical teaching, and to eschew (for want of a better word!) false doctrines. Pure Biblical Christianity is getting lost in the dust of obfuscation.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 12:04 pm: | |
Dennis, I appreciate your thoughtful analysis. You are right about the lack of discernment of the evangelical community in accepting Catholics as Christians. If they do this, then they will not recognize SDA for what it is. I believe the religion of Rome is the false Babylonian system mentioned in Revelation. It is this mixture of faith and works which is so destructive to Christian living. Studying history is fascinating. I ran across an article by John Reisinger which is really interesting called "There are only two religions in the world" and it is relatively short and can be read at www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index004.htm In this article he contrasts free will (the religion of Rome and SDA) with free grace (the religion of Luther and Calvin). But in this article, he outlines how far even the current evangelical church has gotten from the true gospel of the Reformers. Apparently, Rome had an important influence on Jacob Arminius, the father of current Arminian theology. Of course, this is the theology adopted by Wesley, the Methodist father. Then Adventism was strongly influenced by the Methodists. Ellen White was influenced strongly by Wesley, and Charles Finney, who was a Pelagian. So, the corruption of the pure gospel of grace alone was corrupted by Rome working on the Protestant church.
Very recently, a book came out by Mark Noll, a professor at Wheaton College where he in essence declared the Reformation dead, and no longer relevant. He even admitted that it was no big deal that Catholicism had merit included in justification. He was even comfortable with Protestants accepting this faith plus works system, and that the Council of Trent didn't mean anything. If this is widely accepted, then the evangelical church will truly become apostate, and the Biblical prophecies fulfilled about apostate Protestantism joining with Catholicism will come to pass. It is no secret that the papacy would like to rule the world again.
Stan |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 373
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 12:20 pm: | |
WOW Stan,
You said, "the Biblical prophecies fulfilled about apostate Protestantism joining with Catholicism will come to pass. It is no secret that the papacy would like to rule the world again. "
Your sounding so Adventist. 
For those who are "sarcasticly challenged" this was said with tongue very firmly lodged in cheek. ! ! !
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 1:43 pm: | |
Hi Richard, Good to hear from you. Yes I know, but the evidence is getting stronger. However, it was Martin Luther, John Calvin et al, and not SDAs that understood Biblical prophecy this way originally. SDAs can't recognize that they are just like Rome in so many ways. SDA comes out of the same pit as Rome and other false religions.
Stan |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 559
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 7:23 pm: | |
Stan,
When I told my pastor about the MacArthur CD he insisted, "We don't know that the Pope is not in heaven." Hopefully, the CD will change his mind. The self-deception of the Pope was so ingrained that in his dying moments he only appealed to Mary. Without playing God or being overly judgmental, Christ-followers are given enough understanding to know that unregenerated souls do not enter heaven--let alone those who falsely claim to be the vicar (substitute) of Christ on earth.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3230
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:31 am: | |
It's actually surprising to me to realize how uncomfortable Christians in general have become to state the obvious concerns re: the papacy. The Reformation happened in response to the corruption of the papacy; now, 500+ years later, the Christian community is making not passive but active moves to include that religious system in the family of believers.
I know--only God can know each heart. Yet God has clearly shown us in His word His desire for our own hearts and worship, and we are allowing ourselves as a group to be distracted from those truths.
Individually we must embrace Biblical truth and give ourselves to God as living sacrifices for His service. He clarifies Himself and His expectations of us when we are single-minded in our following Him.
The book of Hebrews alone could not be more clear that any clinging to an intercessory priesthood is heresy. The seventh chapter goes into great detail about Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizedekóeternal, appointed by God, all-sufficient, etcóand any work on our part to establish a human system of preistly representatives or clerical authority that interprets Christ for us is another gospel. In fact, any work on our part to prove or ensure our continuing salvation is another gospel!
The work God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10) is "salvation insurance". It is God's own work which He puts before us for His own purposes and glory.
I am actually amazed when I consider how far Christianity has gone in "undoing" the work of the Reformation.
By grace alone through faith alone on the authority of Scripture alone.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Colleen |
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