| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2081 Registered: 11-2002 |
Do any of you ever lurk over at revivalsermons.org? Today I went over there just to see if they are gaining a more grounded understanding of The Gosple, Christianity, Grace, etc. What I got was a discussion on how wonderful the book The Great Controversery is and a discussion going on about if the SDA church should be labled Evengical, Sect or Cult. Colporter says that it is not enough to believe in Jesus, even satan does that. This is where I stopped reading over there. St that point I was getting a thought that the diswcussion was getting just too unChristian for me. It seems to be just too far out. Do any of you have some ideas where this person comes up with his or her theology? Is those beliefs orothodox SDA? Is this in any way Bibical at all? What does he or she mean with those sorts of comments and is it like a SDA code speek where you have to be deeply in the organization to grasp the lingo? Because, I just don't get it at all. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2088 Registered: 3-2004  |
I lurk over there also and have seen all that stuff. It just makes me very thankful that I am no longer part of the SDA church. All we need is Jesus and He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 794 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colporteur is a former Catholic who has converted to Adventism and now supports his family by selling the red books. Of course he is sold out to EGW and anything that she writes. He is also willing to throw away everything that was held as a belief by RCC, even if that doctrine is true. At least that is my observation. I too was reading that particular thread today. Ed White was calling attention to the fact that according to Great Controversy SDA's have attributed to the Papacy something that is God's to do, in other words making God answerable to the Catholic Church rather than the other way around. Pastor O'Ffill simply told him that he was unwilling to change his idea of what Daniel 8:14 said simply because EGW had seen it the way it is laid out in GC, so therefore it must be so because she says that is what is so. It is willing blindness. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2005  |
Dear Belva, I believe this is called MORAL RELATIVISM: i.e., Belief in what you believe and want to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary. Jess | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1093 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, Its great to see yours and Bonnie's picture. Where's Koda? Stan | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 227 Registered: 2-2005 |
Has anyone noticed that there is a highly interesting discussion going over there right now between the zealotry and a new poster named "christian"? He's had some questions about EGW and it's making some of them highly uncomfortable. "Walk in the Light" even recommended that he/she come here to discuss this and not there. The conversation begins on page 3 of the "RE Dr. Hershel Hughes' 'message'" thread under the category of "Significant Last Day Events". Check it out here: http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=841&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1113 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic, the R/S threads are becoming wilder all the time. I sure wish we could still post there. I see where "Walk in the light" went against Pastor O'Ffill's wishes and started another thread where he is expressly denying the Trinity, and he is predicting that the SDA church will eventually adopt Mary worship like Catholicism. But O'Ffill doesn't stop this guys terrible heresy, yet we were banned for proclaiming the evangelical gospel. The thread for Walk's heresy is www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=825 Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 810 Registered: 7-2004 |
Outrageous! | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 228 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, I've been following that thread off and on, too. Well, at least he's finally decided to "come out of the closet" and be honest about his beliefs. And, hey, if you're an SDA your doctrinal positions make much more sense if Christ is not really God. I hope that makes sense. Consider that most if not all of their core doctrines were formulated during the time when virtually all of SDA leadership held an Arian view of Christ. This HAD to have impacted other doctrine, don't you think? It seems a little silly to have us over here talking about them and them over there talking about us. It would be great if we could come together again at a neutral site such as CARM for more direct discussion without the continual threat of being banned for saying too many things that may undermine the bretheren's faith in Ellen White. For any R/S lurkers out there (and I know you are reading this, folks), how does that sound? Is reasoning together FROM SCRIPTURE a bad thing? Heretic | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 398 Registered: 7-2004  |
Heretic, you are right. CARM is specifically set up for just that type of discussion. There are a few basic rules that apply to everyone, designed to keep the discussions civil. While no viewpoints are off limits, anyone should be prepared to explain the basis of their position and defend critiques of it. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 812 Registered: 7-2004 |
I must apologize to Guibox for assuming that he was a her. Please forgive, I meant no harm. Walk_In_The_Light is feeling sorry for me because I don't understand sanctification. He can keep his pity. I must agree with him on one thing, however, because the pastors and laity that I went to for help when I was looking for answers on IJ wouldn't even try to explain it to me from scripture alone. I dare say that WITL would have a difficult time explaining that doctrine from scripture alone. In all of my experience in the SDA church (over 40 years) I have never heard it approached without ending up in a discussion of the great disappointment and two men in a corn field the morning after. Christian, you have asked a good question when you refer these people to 1 Tim 4:1-4. The warning given there about forbidding marriage is a good picture of David Koresh and his Branch Dividians. David would not allow any of his followers to marry so he could keep all of the women to himself. The warning about avoiding sects that say it is wrong to eat meat seems to be drawing a bead on Adventism. The teachers who lie with straight faces could be like the Word of Faith teachers that we see on television all of the time. These people teach that mere humans can manipulate God by some sort of if-then formula. Paul is warning us, through Timothy, of all of the various devices that will be subtly superimposed on the pure Gospel, thus turning truth into a lie. It doesn't take much, just blurr out the truth a little, make it fuzzy to the sight, and it becomes something other than the truth. I may be simple minded, but I am placing all of my hopes and prayers on the shoulders of Jesus the Christ, my Savior. He is Almighty God, who is from Eternity to Eternity, who willingly became a human being, starting in the form of a Baby (he, who has forever existed). That Baby was born of a Virgin, so that his conception had nothing to do with the way all other babies are conceived. Adam fell from a perfect State of Grace and brought sin on all of his offspring. Jesus was conceived in a perfect State of Grace and fulfilled the Law in his body, died for sin, though he knew no sin, and ransomed all who were destined to belong to him from the foundation of the world when he died for our sins and rose again in victory. WITL, I do believe that I understand sanctification, because I have just described it to you. Several months ago when I was banned from posting at R/S I did a study on Leviticus 16. I'm sure you will find it if you look for it. What I did was show how Jesus was referenced in every part of the Day of Atonement, and how he completed every part of the Passover while he was yet upon this earth. There was no need to go into the Holy of Holies in Heaven in 1844. What is more, IJ denies the completeness of the price that Jesus paid for you and me. IJ makes it sound like God is absentminded and has to go read his diary in order to remember who was naughty and who was nice. You and I may need such a reference text, God does not. God knows the names of every person who has placed their trust and faith in him, and whe you or I die, that is the end of the game; He knows already whether you will stand with the sheep or the goats. There will be a judgment of the righteous when Jesus returns again, but that will be to determine reward, not salvation. The moment the sinner accepts Jesus as his or her Savior, and is sealed in their heart by the Holy Spirit, they pass from judgment into life. In my Living Bible (a paraphrase) Romans 3:25 says: "For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God's anger against us. He used Christ's blood and our faith as the means of saving us from his wrath." Actually we wouldn't even have faith if Jesus had not called us to be members of His faith community. It goes on to say in Romans 3:26 LP: "But isn't this unfair for God to let criminals go free, and say that they are innocent? No. for he does it on the basis of their trust in Jesus who took away their sins. Then what can we boast about doing to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him." No amount of do do this and don't do that will earn you a place amongst the faithful. It is a free gift from Christ alone. That means we are wasting our breath talking about diet as though it were a salvational issue. It is not. Jesus died for every sin mankind has ever thought up. He paid for our bad judgment and he paid for our rebellion. He paid for it all. Romans 4:4&5 says "...being saved is a gift; if a person could earn it by being good, then it wouldn't be free--but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. For God declares sinners to be good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them from God's wrath." In Romans 4:9-11 it says: "Now then, the question: Is this blessing given only to those who have faith in Christ but also keep the Jewish laws, or is the blessing also given to those who do not keep the Jewish rules, but only trust in Christ: Well, what about Abraham: We say that he received these blessings through his faith. Was it by faith alone? Or because he also kept the Jewish rules? "For the answer to that question, answer this one: When did God give this blessing to Abraham? It was before he became a Jew--before he went through the Jewish initiation ceremony of circumcision. "It wasn't until later on, after God had promised to bless him because of his faith that he was circumcised." All of you Adventists that want to worship the Jewish day and eat the Jewish diet, do you even understand that the rite that was the entry into the Jewish covenant relationship was circumcision? A person was not required to keep the Jewish laws until after they were circumcised. Then the sign of covenant relationship was the Sabbath, and only for the Jews. That is the reason there was so much discussion about circumcision in Galations. Christians are under the New Covenant of Jesus' blood. Baptism is the initiation rite for entry into that covenant, in particular the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We Gentiles are sealed for eternity by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and are kept in covenant relationship by the laws of Jesus, the law of love, written on our hearts. I am sanctified by the Blood of Christ. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 345 Registered: 7-2004  |
Excellent post, Belva--thanks! I was just musing the other day that while an SDA, so many things were confusing. I honestly thought I just wasn't smart enough to understand such "deep" theology, but of course it had to be right. In contrast, it's amazing how clear and simple the plain gospel is and just goes to show the confusion had nothing to do with my level of intelligence, and everthing to do with blurring of the truth. I love how Paul states over and over again, and yet again if you still didn't get it, what the gospel facts are. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 169 Registered: 3-2005 |
Belvalew, In your post above you mentioned that the judgement won't be for our Salvation but for our rewards. Although I know that is what the Bible says, I still have a hard time understanding the rewards part. I am so glad to know that Salvation isn't by works and I know I am saved. After Salvation, what other reward is the Bible talking about? Are there differences in what one will recieve? I know that in heaven there will be no jealousy or division, but I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we will be judged for a reward! I finally understand that works don't affect my Salvation, so this is a bit confusing to me. I know there are many on this forum that can address this for me! Thanks. -tisha | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 813 Registered: 7-2004 |
By reward, it will only be about how many stars are in your "crown of righteousness." Can someone give us a reference, please? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1119 Registered: 3-2005 |
Belva, excellent post above. But it is interesting about the crown of righteousness with stars in your crown. Remember in Sabbath School we were taught that you woudn't be in heaven if you didn't have at least one star in your crown representing at least one person you were influential in leading to Christ. There is an article in this month's Adventist World by Christine Miles who wrote an article entitled "Stars in my Crown"? where she looks for Biblical evidence for this stars in the crown idea and admits there is no Biblical evidence at the end of her article, and here is her quote, "My answer isn't solely found in the Bible. Ellen White has provided the filling. Personally, however, I'd rather be filled with rejoicing for the saving power of God than spend a millenium counting the stars in my crown." Isn't that a terrific quote?! She actually is questioning Ellen White's authority in that quote, and the Adventist World (the official new name for the Adventist Review) printed the article--BUT--and it is a big BUT--The editors quickly ran a disclaimer at the bottom of the article "...However, while we've allowed the author to outline her points,...we felt it important for our readers to know about statements by Ellen White.." Then they make a quote from EGW, "There will be no one saved in heaven with a starless crown. If you enter, there will be some soul in the courts of glory that has found an entrance there through YOUR instrumentality" (Last Day Events p.283) So there you have a clear statement from EGW saying that it is just not the reward, but a condition of salvation, which is further evidence EGW taught a different gospel. There is a parable in Matthew 20:1-16 that some people have used to question the idea of some kind of rewards or class system in heaven. This is interesting because the denarius was paid to the workers in the vineyard the same reward to those working all day in the vineyard, and the same wage was paid to those who came in at the last hour. Matt 20:9 ff "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius." Then there was grumbling among those who had worked all day v.12 "These men who were hired last worked only one hour, they said and you have made us equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day". The question, however, is this talking only about salvation itself as the wage, or is this talking about rewards in heaven? There may be other passages that suggest otherwise, but this parable seems to suggest we all get the same reward. It is true that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to answer for everything we have said or done, but this may be a way for us to be shown how much grace has been given us, rather than as a demerit or loss of reward. Others may have additional references. But it does seem like that denarius paid to the workers in the vineyard was a wage, and not a gift, like salvation would be clearly a gift and not some wage for working in the field. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 816 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great point, Stan. I do know that when I was a practicing Adventist I was constantly concerned about whether I was sharing my faith properly so that I would have at least one star. Didn't want to miss out on glory because I hadn't spoken up when I should have. Trouble was that Adventism was so confusing that I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to properly describe the methods required to be saved. Surely there are others on this site who had the same problem? The real, unadulterated gospel is so simple to describe, an is so attractive that it isn't hard to share. Jesus did it all, all to Him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain--He washed it white as snow! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3096 Registered: 12-2003  |
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 talks about rewards. Works done in the Spirit will survive; works done that are not founded in the gospel of Jesus and pure doctrine will be burned up. Then compare this text with Jesus' parable of the talentsóthose who increased the profit of the entrustment the master gave them were given responsibility over even more things, and he who refused to develop his gift (probably representing the gifts of the Spirit and the work prepared in advance for him to do [Eph 2:10]) had his gift removed, and he was not given responsibiltiy in the master's kingdom. (see Mattehw 25:14-30) In 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 Paul says that the saints will judge the world and also angels. Revelation 20:6 says the righteous will reign with Christ for a thousand years in the millennial kingdom, While there are no clear details given, still the suggestion is that those who are faithful to serve and honor Jesus and "build" on the foundation of Jesus with gold, silver and precious stonesóworks done in surrender to the Holy Spirit and the call of Jesusówill, like the faithful servants in Matthew, be given even greater responsibility in Christ's kingdom. The works of the Spirit, I think it's important to consider, are not necessarily high-profile callings. Whatever God places in front of us to do for Himóeven if it's changing diapers or honroing Him by working at a difficult job with an unappreciative bossówhatever He clearly asks us to do is His work. If we accept His assignments with surrender and commitment to honor Him, we are building with gold, silver, and precious stones, and Jesus Himself will produce fruit from our work. That's how I understand the concept of rewardsóbut clearly there is much about this that is not revealed to us. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 817 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for clearing that up, Colleen. I've never been one for hats or crowns, can't seem to keep them on my head--my hair is too slippery. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2120 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, I can really put myself in your shoes. I could not share the SDA "gospel" without mentioning the sabbath and I often wondered what would happen when Jesus came and I was in heaven, If I was. It got to the point that I told myself, to enjoy myself, do what I want, because when I die, I will no longer live and that will be all. I did everything I could that SDAs do not approve of. How mistaken I was. Thank God he came into my life and saved me!! He loved me enough to save little old me. Thank you God. You are Awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3100 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, I'm with you re: hats and crowns!! Colleen |
