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| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2003 |
The theologian who runs R/S posted some comments on Christmas where he laments that the problem may not be in honoring the event of Christís birth but that He is left out of the celebration. If he is referring to the SDA church I would have to agree. That pretty much sums up my experience in Adventizm but is exactly the opposite of my experience since leaving the SDA church and his comment magnifies the isolation of the SDA experience from the rest of the Christian world and seems to generalize the ìchurches of Babylonî with the commercializing of Christmas.. The replies from the diehards are telling. Some realize there is a problem but have to put the ìglasses back onî half way thru the thought process that would help them recognize the trap they are in while others lament that participating in Christmas puts them ìin the worldî or forces them to entertain ìpagans and atheistsî and ìhide their spiritualityî to keep from offending sensitive relatives. I wish they could hear themselves the way I now hear myself remembering when I was in ìSDA thinkî It saddens me to think of all the chances that I missed and they continue to ignore with that kind of thinking where the simple, uncomplicated message of the gospel might be presented. Last year as an example, with Christmas day being on the Saturday we attended the local SDA church with our in-lawís and, after 4 or 5 Christmas carols, the sermon topic was ìwe have a prophet in Israelî and I donít even remember the name of Jesus being mentioned. I am so thankful for the emphasis on the Gospel and Jesus and Living the Christian life presented by the church weíve begun to attend, especially in these last weeks leading up to Christmas. Thank you God for Jesus coming to us as a baby to show us the innocence with which we are accounted when we accept his sacrifice for us!!! May we all have a "merrier" Christmas because of HIM. JD | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 811 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you for starting this thread, JD. I remember that the SDA church I grew up in was willing to take advantage of the goodwill of the other Christians during the Christmas season by knocking on their doors and asking for donations to OUR SDA cause, but like you have mentioned, there was a studied effort not to mention the birth of Christ during Christmas in order to avoid any aspects of the "pagan" holiday. The exact same was true of Easter, never mention that Jesus gave his life for the redemption of many during Easter if you are SDA. If you were to do so you would be capitulating to the Babylonian influence of the "worldly" Christians. The trouble with avoiding Easter is that Jesus died during Passover, which is when Easter occurs most of the time, or at least very nearly at the same time. It is funny, SDA's like to use the phrase "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," but they do it all of the time by leaving Jesus out at the times when everyone else is willing to talk about His significance. I'm thankful, as you are, that God saw fit to call me out of that confusion. I was thinking last night that being called out of Adventism is rather like figuring out that Santa Claus is fictional. Once you are clear about that you never go back to believing in all of those "do do this" and "don't do that" restrictions and you can settle down and have a real relationship with the God that loves you so much he took on your form in order to save you from certain death. Precious is that knowledge. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3091 Registered: 12-2003  |
Interesting thread, JD, and thanks also for your comments, Belva. I rememeber as an Adventist going to a Christmas program with some non-SDA friends. Their relatives were involved in their Christian church's musical, and they invited us to attend. I remember feeling uncomfortable and annoyed that they brought the crucifixion into the story. I resented "messing up" the sentimental sweetness of the manger, etc., with the decidedly unsentimental cross. Oh, my goodness--what a difference it makes to know the power of the cross and to realize it was for me! We had communion at church on Sunday, and Gary Inrig commented in his communion lead-in that at this season we celebrate Jesus, and our call is to accept Himóbut we are not called to accept the Jesus of the cradle. We are called to accept the Jesus of the cross. I really believe that there is a subtle but very powerful aversion within Adventism to deal with the real Jesus. The helpless babe surrounded by miraculous angels, stars, magi, gifts, and patient beasts is evocative and stimulates sympathy. The purpose of that birthóto die cruelly and to rise from deathóis something completely different. The mere Babe divorced from the reality of His mission doesn't demand anything from us except sweet sympathy. The Real Jesus demands surrender. Adventism doesn't want to deal with surrender because it would mean giving up deception, complacence, a feeling of being "special", an illusion of being RIGHT. Jesus means losing all that in favor of a new identity, new peace, new powerónone of which we can even imagine without risking losing all we know. I agree; Adventism has stripped Christmas of the Real Jesus. His victory over evil, His eternal purpose fulfilled in His incarnation, death, and resurrection--all this just isn't part of the picture. As an SDA friend of mine wrote in her Christmas letter this year, "At this season of the year we have hope because of the second coming." Now there's a disconnect...and it left me feeling that Jesus was completely overlooked. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1115 Registered: 3-2005 |
The link for the Christmas discussion on R/S is www.revivalsermons.org and the Christmas thread is at the top. Just to reinforce the differences Colleen is talking about between our view of Jesus when we were SDAs to now as we see the true gospel of grace, I am coming to realize even more the marvelous truth that we did not choose Jesus, but He chose us! John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." Matthew 11:27 "...No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him." John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day". John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away." Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world..." Well, there are so many other similar texts, but it is abundantly clear that the true Jesus is a powerful Savior who has left nothing to chance to secure our salvation. The view of Jesus presented in Adventism presents a weak savior who is just begging for people to accept him, and then once you have professed belief in him, then it is up to you to hold on (I know they say it is with the help of the Spirit, but so does Catholicism believe this same way). If you keep the Sabbath, and follow all the other silly rules and regulations, then you never know if you will pass the Investigative Judgment, and you will have to stand without a mediator! The Jesus of Adventism did not secure salvation at Calvary like the true Jesus, but He only made salvation possible, so that in 1844 he went into the Holiest to complete the atonement! And then you have that scapegoat doctrine. No, at Christmas time we celebrate the glorious salvation that Jesus secured and guaranteed for us. The Creator of the universe humbled himself, and was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit, He lived a perfect life in our place. He died a most terrible death to secure our pardon at the cross, and was raised for our justification. Satan was defeated at the cross, and there is no more controversy between Christ and Satan. It is finished! He ascended to heaven into the Holiest, and He ever lives to make intercession for us. The Holy Spirit was sent as a Seal guaranteeing our salvation. This is the true Seal of God, and has nothing to do with a 24 hour period of time on this round world. I love the Christmas music this time of the year, and I am sure Handel was truly inspired to write the "Messiah". Everytime the Hallelujah chorus is sung proclaiming Jesus as "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and He shall reign for ever and ever", my heart is thrilled as I think of the truly powerful Savior we serve. Stan | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 229 Registered: 2-2005 |
Wow, so here's a new twist. A poster over on R/S had this to say in the Christmas thread about when Christ may have really been born. Hadn't heard that one before! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 814 Registered: 7-2004 |
I had heard something on that order -- not that Jesus was born on Oct. 22, but that he was born in the fall, probably in September or October. If you are a student of Judism you can work out the general time period of the birth of Christ. You must go to the story of the birth of John The Baptist to get time periods. Each of the Priestly Orders served in the Temple at specific times, for two weeks per priestly order. Zacharaias (John's father) was serving in the temple when he was given the message that he and his wife would have a child and that that child would be the one who would herald the coming of the Messiah. Here is where I fall down, because I don't know when, exactly, Zacharaias' order served. The priests lived in the temple area while it was their rotation to serve, and Elizabeth conceived John immediately after he returned home. Elizabeth was six months pregnant when Mary, her cousin, came to tell her that she was carrying the Christ child. We have the story about how John "leapt" within Elizabeth's womb when Mary arrived at Elizabeth's house. Anyway, the person who I was listening to (sorry that I didn't write all of this down) said that John would have been born, after a normal nine month pregnancy, in March. Jesus would have been born six months later, in September or October. The teacher I heard was speculating that Jesus might have been born on the day that the "Feast of Trumpets" occurred that year. Here is a puzzle for you bible scholars to work out! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1120 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic, thanks for pointing out that quote from R/S, which proves even further that the Jesus of Adventism revolves around this special day of Oct. 22 whether it involves his birth, or whether it involves 1844, which traditional SDAs on R/S seem to put their faith in. It is sad that instead of concentrating on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and the fact that the atonement was finished at the cross, they put the emphasis of their faith on a special event that has no Biblical basis for support in 1844, when supposedly Jesus entered the Holiest to complete the work of the atonement. This is another gospel. Stan |
