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| Wavinwayne Registered user Username: Wavinwayne Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hello everyone. This is my first post to this site. I have read many of the archived threads and have found them to be very informative. First of all, please allow me to give you a little background information about myself. I live in the Huntsville, AL. area. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a seventh-day-adventist. I have never even set foot in a sda church, nor have I ever been to any meeting sponsored by them or any other sabbath-keeping group. I am currently a member of a Southern Baptist church. My reason for wanting to be a part of the FAF forum is because I appreciate the insights that many of you have regarding the Bible. I believe that I am a Christian <although not as "Christian" as some feel they are>. When I was a teenager, I knew that I was a sinner. After listening to a TV preacher, I prayed & asked Jesus Christ to forgive me of my sins, and to save my soul. At that time, I truly felt that I meant it. I guess my biggest mistake was not telling anybody about my decision. I did not have parents or friends that I felt comfortable discussing my faith with, so I kept it to myself. Eventually, I fell completely away from anything even resembling the life of a Christian. I am well aware that many <maybe some of you???> might conclude that I was never really saved in the first place, since it didn't lead to me living a holy life. Even I'm not 100% sure where I stood with God regarding salvation. To be completely honest, I did not have any real interest in faith, church or God until I found out in 1999 that I had, years earlier, been exposed to HIV through sex. Thank God, I did not contract it. Anyway, that was the wake-up call that I had that I didn't need to try to ignore God. I repented and turned from those previous sexual sins, & asked God to forgive me. I also prayed to God that if I were not truly saved earlier, that I wanted to be saved then. After that, I joined my wife's church & was baptized. That was in 2000. A few years ago, I started listening to a lot of Christian radio on my drive to & from work. After stumbling upon a couple of smooth-talking "sabbath-keeping" radio preachers (Ronald L. Dart & Joe Crews), I requested & received some of their material. I will admit that this material troubled me deeply & made me question my faith. Some of their writings still trouble me to this day. The most troubling material to me was the booklet I received from "Amazing Facts" entitled: "The Beast, The Dragon, and The Woman". I also suspect they put me on a mailing list, because I get stuff in the mail from time to time about their seminars, SDA colleges, etc. With that background, I am very interested in hearing from former SDA's on how to answer many of my detailed questions. I don't know how often I'm going to be able to check the forum, so I'm going to try & cram in as many questions as I can now. Please be advised; most of my questions have nothing to do with each other. 1) How does the Law of God affect modern-day Christians? 2) In 1st John specifically, we are told that Christians are to keep God's commandments. Which ones? 3) Can a saved person ever become lost? 4) What is the "Lake of Fire" that is spoken of in Revelation? Are unsaved people really going to be tortured beyond human imagination forever & ever in a literal burning lake of fire? This is one that I have trouble with. I know that God is perfect & just, but how could he allow people to suffer like that? It seems very cruel to me. I just can't picture God as being THAT kind of punisher. 5) What is your all's opinion of alcohol, specifically a Christian person drinking alcohol? I have a lot more questions, but I'll leave it there for now. Since I do not feel comfortable giving out my real name over the internet, I would like to keep all communication using my screen name (wavinwayne) only. Thanks in advance for your replies, wavinwayne | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1226 Registered: 7-2003  |
I'll start with question 2 because it is very self-explanatory when not viewed in an isolated context. (Welcome by the way....I never was SDA either). First John was a whole letter written. You can't pull one verse in 2 and one verse in 3 and come up with an assumption. First John tells us what the commandments are: 23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. Adventists pull pieces from 1 John to say the commandments are the ten commandments, but you can see, the letter itself defines it's own definitions. Regarding alcohol, scripture only says not to be drunk, and there are times wine is encouraged for different ailments. I personally don't drink, but the only scripture mandate is not to be drunk. One warning: Make sure what you understand as the "law of God" is not equivalent to the SDAs definition of it. They think the "Law" is limited to the 10 Commandments, where in reality, the law can refer to the pentatuch or just the law from Sinai. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus mixes 10 C commandments with those from the handwritten law without division or distinction. The law still exists to point out sin. And it condemns the sinner, but it cannot make one righteous, only Christ can do that. Once the cross is your path to salvation, the "law of God" has no more power to condemn you, as Jesus clothes you with his righteousness and we are no longer "guilty". That doesn't mean we can run "willynilly" in the street doing what we want. A truly transformed heart will grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord and our "want tos" will change too...some slower than others. Those are my "brief" thoughts on a couple of your questions. Others will chime in more... | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 715 Registered: 1-2003 |
Wavinwayne...I am limited on time so I can only answer briefly at present. 1) How does the Law of God affect modern-day Christians? It does what it was set up to do...show us our sinfulness and draw us to Christ. SDA believe it is there to keep us saved (namely the Sabbath) but if that is so...why did Christ come and die? Jesus saves, not the Sabbath! 2) In 1st John specifically, we are told that Christians are to keep God's commandments. Which ones? The commands John talks about in his writings 3) Can a saved person ever become lost? No 4) What is the "Lake of Fire" that is spoken of in Revelation? Are unsaved people really going to be tortured beyond human imagination forever & ever in a literal burning lake of fire? This is one that I have trouble with. I know that God is perfect & just, but how could he allow people to suffer like that? It seems very cruel to me. I just can't picture God as being THAT kind of punisher. I don't believe as the SDA do that there is instant anihilation...I do believe there will be a hell and punishment...not perhaps forever but for a time. 5) What is your all's opinion of alcohol, specifically a Christian person drinking alcohol? It is a gift given by God but man has abused it, just like sex, food, etc. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 807 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear WavinWayne, we are happy to see you post here with us, and I'm sure there are people who can help you address any and all questions you come up with. My understanding of eternal punishment is that it is eternal destruction. Say you have a cup and you break it. The cup has been destroyed, yet all of the elements that make up that cup still exist. However, those elements will never again function as a cup. Jesus referred to Hell as outer darkness. My view of eternal destruction is like being a consciousness of being forever alone, lost in space, forever without God, and absolutely nothing else to do. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 273 Registered: 5-2004 |
Welcome to the forum WavinWayne! What a great list of questions! There will be others along shortly who will probably be able to answer your questions concisely and completely. I am looking forward to the dialogue. If I may, a few thoughts on the first 3: 1) How does the Law of God affect modern-day Christians? First off, what is the reference to the ìlaw of Godî? Do we mean the overarching will and righteousness of GodÖHis utter perfectness? Adam and Eve broke Godís command to not eat of the tree. Abraham obeyed Godís call to follow to an unknown land, and then BELIEVED God which is what is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:3) We are then told that ìWhat I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.î (Galatians 3:17) Paul goes on to say ìFor Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.. (Rom 10:4) Öthat if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." (Rom 10:9-13) Jesus Himself spoke that belief is what results in salvation: John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, John 3:15-18 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 6:28-40 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'" Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." The 10 commandment law is part of a whole system of laws and statues that were given to the Children of Israel when they came out of Egypt and failed to trust Godís provision and plan. The Sinai law was given to keep them protected until Messiah would come. Rom & Gal. 2) In 1st John specifically, we are told that Christians are to keep God's commandments. Which ones? 1 John 3:22-24 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. John 15:9-17 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another. 3) Can a saved person ever become lost? Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sorry for the long post, but thereís just so many verses. Blessings! | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2005 |
Pheeki, short, sweet and to the point! I love it! Wavinwayne, I am not a theologian by any stretch, But I have been studying 1st,2nd, and 3rd John, so I will respond to that question. What an awesome Gospel explantion in 1st John. It's ALL there, Love, Fellowship, Sin, and the solution, The spirit, The truth affirmed, the promise of eternal life! THe way to know the Father, the way to treat others... I will repeat Melissa's texts (1John 3:23,24). 23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. It helps to read the book in context, as Melissa stated. I see the whole book of 1John to be speaking of Love! I counted the word LOVE 40 times. Yes 40! Kinda seems like that was the point he was trying to get across! From the first verse: 1John 1:1 THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, whech we have looked at and our hands have touched--THIS we proclaim concerning the Word of life. (and then he goes on to talk about LOVE in the rest of the book!) 2:7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had SINCE THE BIEGINNING. 1John3:11 This is the message you heard FROM THE BEGINNING: We should LOVE one another. 2:24: See that what you have heard FROM THE BEGINNING remains in you. 4:24: And he has given us this COMMAND: Whoever loves God must also love his brother. 2John 4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Fater COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new COMMAND but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING: I ask that we LOVE one another. And this is love: thet we walk in obedience to HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard FROM THE BEGINNING--his COMMAND is that you walk in LOVE. (emphasis all mine) Maybe the answers from questions 1, 2, and 3, are here in 1 John! What a great book! It was helpful for me to read it several times straight through. I pray it blesses you the way it did me. JavaGirl Welcome! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3088 Registered: 12-2003  |
WaveinWayneóWelcome! You've come to a place where you will find true support and caring. One thing to remember when reading that Adventist literature is that they play with definitions and pull texts out of context. It's really important that you be studying the Bible yourself--reading whole books at a time. Start with Galatians. Adventistsólike the early Catholicsóseparate the law into "moral" and "ceremonial" and "civil" components. Then when they read texts such as Colossians 2:14-15, Ephesians 2:14, Romans 8:1-6, etc., they say the "law" it's referring to is only the "ceremonial" law. In reality, however, the Bible never makes that distinction. The law is a complete unit of which the 10 Commandments are only a part. They are only 10 of the 613 laws given to Israel. In the life of a Christ-follower, the Holy Spirit indwelling him/her completely replaces the law as one's standard and rule of practice. The indwelling Holy Spirit is the law written on the heart. Having God Himself in us, making us alive, is far more effective than referring to a limited external list. Also, John uses two words which are translated "commandments": "entole" and "nomos". "Nomos" refers to "law"; "entole" refers to "teachings or sayings". Entole is the word John uses when he talks about keeping Jesus' commandments. As far as hell goes, the Bible is clear that punishment is eternal as is heaven. Exactly what it is, though, we don't know. We live in three dimensions; there are spiritual and physical realities we can only approximate that, in eternity, will make more sense. I think of hell much as Belva describes it above. I think you would find Dale Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Christ" extremely helpful because he shows in detail, addressing every point of teaching Adventists have learned and used, how Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant. We are no longer under the old covenant in any way when we are in Christ. His book is a systematic Bible study that addresses every argument Adventists use by showing what the Bible really teaches. You can obtain it through the website www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.org. Again, welcome! We're glad you're here, and we look forward to hearing more from you. Praise God He has drawn you to Himself. Colleen | ||
| Wavinwayne Registered user Username: Wavinwayne Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thank you all for your replies. I have found them to be very helpful & insightfull. May God bless you all. |
