| Author |
Message |
Taybie
Registered user
Username: Taybie
Post Number: 102
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 6:26 am: |     |
Stan, Dennis, Colleen, Helovesme2..........
AMEN! 
AMEN!!!!! |
Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 9:06 am: | |
i am not going to argue with the conclusions stated eariler regarding the nature of hell. i just have a concern about the story of the rich man and lazuras--and that is this--it is merely a story--a parable-and from what i understand a restatement of a popular jewish myth--to which Jesus added an important truth----which would be cool--taking a jewish fairy tale and giving it spiritual meaning --so that each time a child repeated it--they would remember His words--and capture His truth in the story! its not about the nature of hell, per se--but about the absolute finality of the choices we make on this earth--nothing can bridge the great gulf between the two places--it is appointed to men once to die and then to judgment and at judgement---its over--no second chances--if you die without Jesus--you can't change....and that the chance we all need is in the prophets and scripture--if that won't convince us--nothing will...
that is the point. a parable is a story with a point--often a single point. never hundreds of points. if you try to examine it too deeply and assign to many values to various props in the story you can really create some weird and fanciful theology.
Why can't we let the parable be what it is--with the intent Christ gave it--and find other passages which deal directly with the nature of hell.....this smells like the same mistake some churches making trying to force the bible to teach tithing in the new covenant....
i could be wrong. correct me?
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3052
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:40 pm: | |
Pauls, I will never forget when our pastor accepted the invitation to conduct a Bible study for our FAF group early in its inception on the topic of what happens after death.
He used the parable of Lazarus as one of his biblical references to show that there is a hell. When we all stopped him with exactly your argument, he looked at us (and please understand this man is not an intellectual or theological lightweight; he is brilliant, with a nearly photographic memory and an amazingly analytical mind) with a momentary expression of profound bewilderment and said, after a brief pause, "Jesus would never tell an untruth to teach a truth."
I realized with a nearly physical shock that what he said was true; we had been able easily to accept that Jesus just used a popular but fictitious story because we believed that Ellen often told untruths and even claimed God endorsed untruth (as in holding His hand over William Miller's erroneous date in his 1843 prophecy in order to get people to "get ready") as the means of accomplishing the "greater good".
As I thought of all the other parables of Jesus, I realized that while they may not have literally happened, they were 100% true to life and represented what WOULD happen if those events transpired. Why would the Lazarus and Abraham "story" be in a different category from the rest of the parables?
Even if there were no literal exchange between a rich man and Lazarus, Jesus would not use a complete fantasy setting as the accessible, realistic means of conveying the truth. He never did at any other time.
Colleen
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1213
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:50 pm: | |
Pauls, I challenge you about your statement that Luke 16 is a parable. Have you studied each "parable" or story in Luke? I have. EVERY SINGLE ONE is a story we would say is 'true to life' whether real or illustration, until it gets to that one. IF we are going to view scripture witih any sort of consistency, we have to look at the context. Think about it.... Most of the parables in Luke start towards the center of the book, but begin at Luke 1. Everytime you find a story or parable, write a synopsis of it down. Specifically state whether scripture calls it a parable or story. Then look at each one and find another single story or parable that you would say is an illustration that is not true to life. The idea behind parables or word pictures is helping people to relate to the story, and I don't find Christ ridiculing people (holy sarcasm??) for their beliefs as the SDA I know says he is doing in this story. Look one by one and with the exception of this one (which is usually because people don't like what it indicates), see if you can identify another single one that you would say is impossible to be a potentially real situation. If you are honest with the texts, I think you'll find every other story is something an individual could relate to (looking for lost coins, lost sheep, etc.). Why then is this one story the exception? And more importantly, where is the scriptural support for such an exception? |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 2:49 pm: | |
Thanks Dennis,
I understand the forcefullness of the Revelation texts. Indirectly eliminates the anihilationist explanation of the sayings of Christ. What I'm studiyng is relating to what you said, that the words of Christ are clear, so, from this statement we can reach a conclusion. At this moment, I cannot say that the words of Christ are conclusive in and of themselves.
About the parable of Lazarus, someone said that something similar exists in the writings of Josephus Flavius, and was a myth of the jews. And the jews understand that the parable was not a real description of the afterworld, but a myth. It's something like about the words of Jesus about cutting a hand or an eye. Obviously these words could not be taken literaly. So, the jews understand that what Jesus said could not be taken literaly. The idea of finger carying water means that spirits have flesh, and are refreshing by physical means like water, could pose great problems. An why the rich man request a bottle, or much more water? What can do a little finger ?
On the other side, why Jesus used something so controversial, if He knew that the parable will reinforce the belief in consciousness in hell? And using the words that only if someone believes in anihilation will understand differently (the worm never dies)
Between these alternatives, I can only say, I'm not sure what Jesus wanted to communicate. I incline to believe in eternal punishment in hell, but I'm not sure. I have doubts.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3055
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 4:00 pm: | |
Jackob, the doubts are normal. It took me a couple of years of studying and praying before the eternal justice of God began to become clear, and I began to be able to take the words of Jesus and Revelation at face value.
One of Jesus' phrases that gave me pause was His saying the wicked would go to "eternal punishment". Annhilation is not punishment. It is, in fact, exactly what everyone hopes for instead of eternal punishment.
Just let God teach you through His word. He will be faithful, and He will continue to reveal His amazing mercy and sovereign love and justice. He is more than we can imagine.
Praise Him!
Colleen |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 166
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 4:31 pm: | |
Colleen,
I have not read all these posts, due to time constraints; however, I have been pondering the possibility of eternal hell being that once the body is destroyed and dies, the consciousness of the lost individual remains eternally conscious; and in that conscious state to have nothing to think of but saying no to Christ's atonement and knowing they are forever apart from the Father's Presence and the joys of heaven and eternal bliss. Other than the physical pain of burning in fire and feeling that for eternity - - I can't comprehend this horror! - - but would not that mean that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal life "in hell?" But to be conscious of being lost for eternity - what more horrible hell could one imagine?
Jess |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 518
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:50 pm: | |
THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS: A Helpful Commentary
"Christ's teaching was rabbinic in methodology and rabbinic parables often revolved around real historical characters. The rabbinic literature before, during, and after the time of Christ is filled with parables which built imaginative stories around real historical characters. There are multiple examples in the Talmud and Midrash of parables in which Abraham had dialogues with people such as Nimrod, with whom he could never have spoken literally. Everyone understood that these parables and dialogues did not literally take place. It was understood that the rabbis used imaginative stories and dialogues as a teaching method. It was understood by all that these dialogues never took place.
Therefore, it does not bother us in the least to say that Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue in Luke 16:19-31 which was not "true" or "real" in the sense of being literal. It is obvious that Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which literal water could quench.
What is important for us to grasp is that Christ used the mental images conjured up by this rabbinic parable to teach that, in the hereafter, the wicked experience torment and the righteous bliss. This is clear from the rabbinic sources from which he drew this parable.
Since the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham was a teaching tool used by the rabbis before Christ, it is obvious that Christ was not trying to teach that we will talk with the wicked in the hereafter. He was merely using the dialogue method to get across the concept that there is no escape from torment, no second chance, and we must believe the Scriptures in THIS life unto salvation...The rabbinic understanding of Sheol is the basis for Christ's illustration in Luke 16:19-31." (Excerpts from "Death and the Afterlife" by Dr. Robert A. Morey, pp. 84, 85) |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 341
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:52 pm: | |
I guess if there's a difference between physical death and spiritual death, it makes more sense of how the wages of sin is spiritual death. All humans are born into sin and all are born spiritually dead. When we are born again, we receive our spiritual life, and that spiritual life will never die. If we are not born again, the dead spirit stays as it is, alienated from God, which has nothing to do with physical life or death. That's the explanation I've heard anyway. Does anyone have Bible texts to back this up, or am I totally off base? Whatever way it turns out to be, is fine with me, because God is both just and merciful. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3056
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:59 pm: | |
Jess, I remember asking myself the same question. Gradually it dawned on me that my definition of "death" was undoubtedly as limited as all my other three-dimensional understandings. I remember realizing that "death" might not mean "non-existence" for a human but something worse--isolation with no hope of remedy. Perhaps our definitions of death are limited. At any rate, the Bible distinguishes between death and the second death.
I don't have all the answers. But I'm thinking that if we could see the spiritual realm, death might look different than it looks to us here.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 12:43 am: | |
Tonight I was listening to KFI radio as they were having a death watch for this gang-banger Tookie Williams who was scheduled to die tonight. One of the hosts who is an atheist, and who was up at San Quentin covering this event, and after mingling with this pro-Tookie crowd, he observed some of the worst behavior of a supposedly peace loving crowd. He noticed all the adulation and hero-worship for this heinous killer. He made an interesting comment, (for being an atheist) and it was this; "I sure hope there is a hell for people like this. There would be no justice if all this man got was all this adulation and hero worship, and then just a painless injection, and that was all there is." Even atheists see the need for real justice to be meeted out. To think that liberal SDAs and liberal Protestants don't believe in any kind of retribution strikes against the intuition of even unbelievers. I was fascinated by this comment.
Stan |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2088
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 9:35 am: | |
Stan, I also watched the Tookie Williams saga. I actually tend to be anti capital punishment. At the same trime I believe in cases such as this life in prison should mean just that, life in prison. I have a very close friend who actualy was on death row in San Quinton for seventeen years a slew of murders that he had nothing to do with and even at the time they occured knew nothing of the plans by his gang friends to even commit those those murders. He is one of only a half-dozen or so people ever to have been exeronated and totally set froo from death row in California. In fact, he is a minister at a local church. Anyway, life in prison usually really has to mean life in prison. You can do a search in the Internet of the California injustice system. It's very interesting. I just don't see the point of most inmates even being incarcerated. I guess that Is just one more reason how come I am a registured Libertarian. Nonetheless, as long as capital punishment is the la the law of the land Tookie williams was the poster child on a person who deserved it, although around 20 years too late. |
Wolfgang
Registered user
Username: Wolfgang
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 3:25 am: | |
how can a loving God burn His childern forever?
I beleive there will be a hellfire and destruction but to burn someone forever? could you do that to one of your erring childern?
I would never worship a god that is that cruel.
My God is just,and loving and I know His puishment will be just that |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 523
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 7:09 pm: | |
Wolfgang,
Truly, God is loving and just as you indicated. We can only appreciate His love and grace to the extent that we understand the depths of His divine wrath. God would still be loving and kind if he didn't save even one of us. He doesn't owe any of us to be saved. We all deserve death--eternal separation from God. Think of Satan and his angels that NEVER have a good day--never ever!. In fact, they haven't had a good day since they were cast out of heaven untold ages ago. They are smothering in fear, anxiety, depression, and hopelessness continually. Annihilationists would likely ask, "How could a loving God be so cruel to a former leader in heaven all these many, many years already?" Furthermore, Satan and his hosts know that things for them will even get far worse in the near future. The annihilationist would very likely conclude that "only an evil tyrant would do such an awful thing to someone all these many, many years."
To get just a glimpse of God's wrath, please reread Exodus 32 (the golden calf incident). The consequence for evil is truly a big deal with God--not merely a momentary slap on the wrist after a profane life. Jesus spoke four times more often about hell than he did about heaven. The ungodly will wish that annihilationism and/or suicide would be their momentary fate. However, God will not allow "the rocks and the mountains" to quickly rub them out of their misery. There will be no quick-fix for the ungodly. Those who end up in hell would never want to be in heaven either. In fact, heaven would be hell for them. Thus, the only alternative to annihilation is quarantine. This is precisely what hell is (eternal separation from God). How could a loving God obliterate (extinguish) someone made in his very own image because they acted upon their God-given ability to disagree with Him? Indeed, this would do violence to His nature. God is so loving, just, and considerate that he even sustains the ungodly with an existence totally apart from himself. Indeed, He respects their final decision to be in perpetual rebellion against him.
Dennis Fischer |
Taybie
Registered user
Username: Taybie
Post Number: 107
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 11:36 am: | |
Wow Dennis. I praise God for your understanding, as you have been used to give me insight on such a controversial, (albeit real) subject in the Christian life. I agree...I mean, God is loving AND just, and that explanation you just gave, made me see that even more! What JOY it is to study His Word!
Lord, You ARE worthy!!!!!!!! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3090
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 10:54 pm: | |
Great explanation, Dennis.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 5:28 pm: | |
Dennis,
Thank you for the explanation about God's wrath. I understand it much better.
Diana |
Zjason
Registered user
Username: Zjason
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 9:49 pm: | |
Dennis
That is a thoughtful analysis of the issue. You all will have to forgive my rather moronic understanding. What I was wondering is if there is any other backing from scripture that says that condemned people are conscious of their condition eternally. Is eternal death a state in which you are conscious, yet dead? or are you dead and just dead? This is all very new to me...
Cheers.
Jason |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 207
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 6:23 pm: | |
Jason,
Go to the top right of this page and click "search" - put in death for the search and a lot of discussions on death should come up.
Lynne |
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