| Author |
Message |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:17 am: |     |
It would not be hard for God to take the sperm out of Joseph (without him even knowing it) and plant it in Mary. I don't deny the virgin birth.
When John says the "word" I view that as prophecy. And, when Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" again this could very well mean in prophecy he was.
And, in 1 Timothy 5:4-5 it says for the widows to first be taken care of by their family (even mentions nephew if she has one). But, if that's not possible, it says that then she would trust directly in God to take care of her.
A good example of authority having to do with needs is with a baby. The greatest dependence (or need) is of a fetus in the mother's womb. The pregnant mother then has huge authority over this fetus. The authority wans as the baby is born and then is weaned off the mother's milk. The mother's authority wans because the child is no longer dependant on her. It's dependent directly on his father then until he is fully grown and gets married and becomes an authority himself.
A dog is under the authority of it's owner because it's needs are met by the owner.
Many women today will proudly claim to have no need of any man. And, it's true that they can be independent and make money on their own. They can even protect themselves with birth control from the power of men.
But, there is no denying that babies are helpless and needy. Who do they belong to?
This is very close to home for me and something I have thought of a great deal seeing that I was adopted twice actually. At two months of age I was taken from my mother and adopted by a family that kept me for about a year. And, then they gave me up for adoption and I was then adopted by the Adventist family I grew up in when I was two and a half.
There is something very very important to the well being of the individual as well as the whole society to have women accept their earthly authorities. When they do, then everyone benefits.
I am certainly not for forcing women to submit and forcing men to lead. That would be completely against the gospel of love. I am simply expressing my own views. Not to convince anyone. I have no burden to prove anything. I simply was wanting the pleasure of a friendly discussion. It's like a luxurious hot bath. I don't need it, but it is real nice.
Debbie |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 8:16 am: | |
Reality is we are ultimately ALL under authority, men and women. A married woman is "under" the authority of her husband, but the man is to be "under" the authority of Christ. IF the husband fulfills his role, I suspect the wife will feel safe and protected as well as valued and a co-parent of any children, not the subservient parent. Both husband and wife are to submit to each other, scripture does not describe a sort of slave-master relationship in marriage. Husbands are to leave their father and mother and cleave to their wife. That's not a picture I read in some of your descriptions.
We are all to be subject to the rulers of the lands in which we live, except where it contradicts scripture. Learning to live in submission to people is a fact of life in some circumstances, but there are always leaders too. I am a leader in my home as my husband resigned the role many years ago. My children can listen to their fathers when they are with them, but when they're in my home, their main authority is ME. Their father's rules stop at my doorsteps.
My ultimate authority is and will always be Christ, as is the ultimate authority of men. If we cannot agree on the role of Christ, though, in the trinity, there is little other foundational position that we will ultimately agree. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3060
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
True, Melissa. The identity of Jesus is the ground of reality that makes or breaks all of our subsequent conclusions. All discussions of authority, salvation, the future, etc. are moot points unless we agree on the identity of Jesus as eternally God and one Person of the Trinity.
Without that understanding, all other conclusions are relative.
Without absolute truth as the foundation of our conclusions, our discussions simply reflect relative, individual perferences and have no real meaning. But there IS absolute truth, and that truth has been revealed in the Person of Jesusóthe Word who was God and who was with God in the beginning; the Word Who became flesh and dwelt among us; the Word Who spoke all that is into existence and Who sacrificed Himself for our eternal salvation.
How amazing Jesus is!
Colleen |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2090
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:31 pm: | |
Dear Debbie2, I wrote to Dr. Phil and asked him how to deal with my situtation. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 3:40 pm: | |
Debbie, I have been very interested following your posts on this thread. You made one comment above where you said that you doubt anyone else holds your views on some of these topics. I do have a cousin who also expressed the same view as you did about God miraculously impregnating Mary with Joseph's sperm. This person is a very strict SDA, so this view must be circulating out there somewhere. I am just curious where you came up with this view of Jesus' birth? This view effectively gets rid of Jesus' divinity and denies the clear teaching of scripture that what was conceived in Mary's womb was conceived of the Holy Spirit. As we approach Christmas, this truth becomes even more real and we marvel at how God became a man, by being born of a virgin, and being humbly born in a manger.
Stan |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:23 pm: | |
Sir I will respectfully answer your question since you asked.
I came up with the idea from the fact that there are two different geneologies of Jesus (Matthew and Luke). They diverge at David with one going through Solomon and the other going through Nathan. This indicates he had both Joseph's and Mary's genes.
I do believe Jesus has his Father's name of "I AM" because of his birth. He was born of the spirit - not of the flesh (and resistance and blood from the hymen breaking). In Isaiah it says the sign God gives of the Messiah is the fact of him being born of a virgin. This is what makes him the son of God. Or born of God.
A man claims his bride by breaking her hymen. This is ownership. It is the opposite of love. One certainly can love despite being an owner - but that ownership is not love. Jesus was not born due to the earthly father claiming ownership of his mother. Ownership and authority causes exclusivness (as in a family). The new earth with only God ruling is just the opposite of this.
Yes, Jesus' birth is very important. It shows God's character more than anything can. It gives us hope of a new earth where there will be no exclusive groups. But, until then we accept the God blessed union of marriage.
Debbie |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 164
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:27 pm: | |
Debbie2,
I'm confused by all your talk of women being owned by men. I don't think marriage is one of ownership, but partnership. I can allow my husband to be the head of our home, but that doesn't mean he owns me. I don't think that is what the Bible teaches at all. And I'm not at all sure that women are to be silent in Church as you stated earlier. I think the Bible is being misused when it is used to demean women. There is nothing that I read that says this. We are all created in God's image.
I agree that ownership is opposite of love. So how does that fit with God's intent for marriage. I don't think He wants us to be in non-loving marriages.
This kind of rhetoric is what made me question Christianity. It has done so much harm in the name of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. I have to believe that it was never the intent of God to teach that women are somehow less than men and are owned by men.
I must say that I am quite disturbed by what you are claiming about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. I just don't think this is Biblical.
All this has the appearance of going off into another cultic direction.
Please, anyone, correct me if I have come to a wrong conclusion about this. I know I have struggled, and still struggle, with what Paul says is the role of women in the Church, and that of a wife submitting to her husband. I have much to learn and accept about all this, but somehow the way Debbie2 is stating it all makes me want to RUN as fast as I can away from "Christian" views of women.
This is probably the hardest area of my life to surrender to God's will. I was a single parent for so long, and as such made all the decisions regarding my family. Now I am married to a man who does not want to take a lead in our home - and that suits me just fine! But I know that we both need to learn more about God's will in our marriage. BUT - this talk of ownership, of breaking the hyman to claim this ownership, etc. just make me wonder if maybe ALL of the views about women that are held by Christians are WRONG. And how all this is related to a Virgin Birth and Jesus Divinity is beyond me! I know this isn't rational thinking, but it is this very kind of talk that turns me away.
Having said this, I do want to be open to a BIBLICAL view of the role of women and men, both in marriage, and in Church, as well as in general. So, please include Biblical reference for any discussion about this.
I know I'm rambling, but this is such a tough issue for me, and then to have it a clouded by divergent views, maybe even a non-Biblical viewpoint, really scares me! And if this view of women that Debbie2 holds is true, where do I go from here? I'm not trying to be negative or devisive - I really am disturbed by some of the posts above.
Debbie2, I don't mean to hurt you, but I really need to understand what God wants for me. If what you are saying has merit, then I pray that God will help me understand. And if what you say is not of God, than I pray for God's protection.
I am really in a hurting, confused place right now. Please God, keep watch over me, help me to be open and humble, and discerning as I struggle with this topic.
-tisha |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 7:00 pm: | |
Tisha, The disturbing posts you mention above is NOT the Christian view of marriage, as what was said in those posts has absolutely no Biblical support at all. You are the one who has the correct view--marriage is a partnership, not some type of ownership. As you mentioned, Tisha, the views expressed on the Trinity above as well as those views on the birth of Christ are not Biblical.
Stan |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 7:13 pm: | |
Tisha, I am sincerely sorry for causing confusion. I humbly beg your parden and will be content now to simply read instead of posting. And, please be assured that I am not hurt. May God's peace be with you in your seeking for Truth.
in His love,
Debbie |
Taybie
Registered user
Username: Taybie
Post Number: 106
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:28 am: | |
Hey everyone...
I appreciate all the comments place here and as I was typing my own response, I felt the need to stop. I just want to thank God for the beauty of marriage, for being able to see the great worth in submission and to honor Him for putting such a beautiful covenant in place for us on earth. It has taken a bit of time, but I am greatful that I waited. I am glad I did not rush into marriage, both as and adventist and now. I am waiting on God and when He sees fit, I will be married to the man He has chosen.
For the record, I believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ, in submitting to God and to my future husband and I believe that marriage is a partnership, not at all ownership.
I love You Jesus - You simply leave me breathless!
|
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2098
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:44 am: | |
Debbie, please keep on posting, even your doubts. You will find people who identify with you and can help you through your rough spots. So many people post so many different things and they are personal to that person and not meant to hurt anyone else. So keep on posting. We are an understanding bunch of people. God has been so good to each of us to have brought us to where each of us are. We are not on the same spot on this journey with Jesus, because Jesus leads us as individuals.
Diana |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:02 am: | |
Thank you Diana. That is very kind of you. I find myself in a dilemma due to my desire to respectfully refrain from having discussions with men. This is simply due to my own view on things.
I also don't want to bring pain or confusion to anyone. It's hard to know exactly who you are addressing via the internet and their comprehension of what you are trying to say.
I do appreciate your kind words, Diana.
Debbie |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3068
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:11 am: | |
Actually, the posts above about Jesus and his birth and conception have NO Biblical basis and counter the reality that the Bible says Joseph had no union with Mary until after Jesus was born (Matthew 1:24).
The Bible does NOT teach "ownership" in marriage. The curse in Genesis 3 said that the woman would desire her husband, but he would rule over her. That curse is the result of sin, of humans being out of communion with God and thus being unable to love one another for God.
Jesus came to undo the curse of sin in us. He became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13); He became sin so we could become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).
When we are born from above, we have God Himself living in us, making our spirits alive. We have God's love at work in us. The curse of sin no longer claims us. We can honor and respect our husbandsóeven if they are unbelievers (1 Corinthians 7:12-16) without losing our identity and authority in Christ. Men can love and cherish their wives as Christ loved the church (that's sacrificial love) because Christ's Spirit is living in them, loving through them as they submit to Him.
The Biblical view of marriage is of the most respectful, sacrificial, honoring relationship of all. It is the metaphor used to describe Jesus' relationship with those of us who are born from above. Marriage, according to the Bible, has the potential of being the most protective, nurturing, honest, growth-producing, satisfying, "self-actualizing" human relationship.
It's not an accident that Paul commands men to love their wives and wives to respect their husbands. By nature, men tend to respect, and women tend to "mother" and be a bit blinded by the emotion of love. The command, however, is for men to draw on the power of the Holy Spirit to do what does not come naturally--to be tender and gentle and to love their wives, and women are to draw on the power of the Holy Spirit to let go of their cloying, suffocating tendency to manage their husbands because they want to make everything smooth and instead respect them and honor their decisions and wisdom.
When God indwells us with His Spirit, He heals our relationships as well. Cruelty and force have no place in a Biblical marriage. Ownership has nothing to do with marriage. Manipulation and control have no place in a Biblical marriage.
In marriage--as in every other aspect of a Christ-follower's life, the issue is our personal surrender to Jesus. At each step we offer Him our reactions, fears, and anger and ask Him to heal us and to help us to love our spouse for Him. We surrender to Jesus in order to be free to let Jesus love the other through us.
(And that love does not mean tolerating abuse or cruelty. Jesus did not tolerate those things when he encountered them. It means allowing Him to be our strength to help us see clearly what we must do to protect ourselves, our children, and ultimately our spouse from destructiveness. Sometimes situations demand distance in order to stop a cycle of abuse.)
Because Jesus lives in you, Tisha, He will be faithful to heal your heart, and He will give you Himself as you learn to trust Him to keep you safe so that you have the courage to respect and honor your husband in the ways God shows you to do.
Colleen |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:36 pm: | |
I really like what you said, Colleen, about Christian marriage being the most satsifying, self-actualizing etc. relationship. Amen and amen!
I somehow sense that I have been misunderstood. I delight in my marriage and enjoy tremendously every aspect of it! This has been the case increasingly for the past four years.
The word I used of "ownership" seems to be causing some difficulty. I'm sorry. I don't mean to cause confusion or distress. I am not around people very much, so have difficulty sometimes knowing what words to choose that are most appropriate.
I used "ownership" simply because I myself love the idea of belonging so totally to my husband. I never belonged truly to anyone before. Now my concept of this is probably the same as what most people would simply consider belonging in a normal family. I struggled mightily to accept that my husband really did want me. I always figured I was a "burden" or that I didn't really "belong". Now I accept his adoration of me and revel in the security of my belief of really belonging (at last!) to someone.
It's true that marriage is a reflection of the relationship between Christ and the church. Christ cherishes the church. Just as a loving husband cherishes and adores his wife. There are texts though that are clear about us "belonging" to Christ as in an ownership type relationship - which means it's all His decision and we can't stop belonging to Him. We can stop obeying Him - but there's always that security in place that we will always belong to God. Thanks to Jesus!
"....ye are not your own. Ye are bought with a price." 1 Cor. 6:19.20 This is refering to us being bought with Christ's blood. And, in the next chapter:
"...Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price" 1 Cor. 7:22,23 Notice the word "servant".
Due to the ugliness of the racial slavery and the civil war in this country, there is great resistance of the idea of anyone being a servant. Servanthood can be a matter of great pride though. As in the case of Abraham's servant Eliazer who was very dignified in his Master's work (such as finding a wife for Isaac).
And, sons are no different than servants until they reach adulthood. As it says in Galatians 4:1
"Now I say, that the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all".
It's not a shameful or degrading thing to be under authority. Animals are under the authority of humans (and are owned) yet look at the dignity that many animals have. Especially cats. lol!
Marriage is glorious and wonderful and I didn't mean to say that it wasn't. I simply meant to say that the new earth is very different.
Debbie |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:40 pm: | |
Colleen, there is another point of misunderstanding. That is about Joseph not knowing Mary sexually until after Jesus was born. I agree! That doesn't change what I said earlier though. The fact that he didn't have relations with her doesn't mean that it's not possible for her to be pregnant with his sperm. Do you see what I mean? Did you read what I wrote in one of the latest posts? I explained it there.
Debbie |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 798
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:43 pm: | |
Scripture says that Mary was "overshadowed" by the Holy Spirit. If we must work things out in our heads, believe that Jesus, who is and was and ever will be God Almighty, became a one-celled seed so that as our Immanuel he would be a special creation, just as Adam was, and not subject to sin as we are at birth. Adam came into being as a perfect human being, not subject to sin, but he chose to relinquish his perfection and become subject to sin when he fell under to spell of the serpent an Eve. Mary was a virgin because she needed to be a pure vessel in order to contain Jesus as that special creation, not subject to sin or any earthly means of coming into being.
I believe that Joseph's geneology is listed because Joseph was the closest thing to a father that Jesus had as a child. However, we must remember that at the age of 12 Jesus reminded both Mary and Joseph of who he actually was when he told them "I must be about my father's business" and Jesus was not talking about carpentry.
I've been musing about several things due to the Christmas Season, and found that we should all take heart from the story of the Magi. There was a prophecy that Jesus would be called out of Egypt. In the normal course of things Joseph and Mary would have returned home to Nazareth after being counted in Bethlehem, but the visitation of the Magi brought the prophecied redeemer to the notice of the then King of Isreal, and he feared the competition. Therefore Mary and Joseph would have to flee the country with their precious babe until it was safe to return to their home. The Magi brought valuable gifts, commodities that would provide Mary and Joseph with the means to make the trip to Egypt and live for a time while they were there.
God knows our every need, and if he calls us to do something or go somewhere for Him, He will provide us with the gifts and the means to go and do. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3070
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:08 pm: | |
I like your observations about the magi, Debbie.
I still have to say, though, that the idea of Jesus having Jsoeph's sperm involved in any way in his heritage is completely unfounded Biblically, and we really must not draw conclusions the text will not support. Speculation and conjecture will lead us away from the central truth of the matter: the birth of Jesus was a miracle we cannot explain to our finite satisfaction. If it were completely explainable, Jesus would be too "small" for us to worship. He is the eternal God, and His birth is a divine singularity which we cannot explain.
As far as Joseph's genealogy being includedóJesus was, in the eyes of the nation and according to the laws, Joseph's sonóadopted or otherwise. He "belonged" to Joseph. According to Jewish understanding, Jesus could claim both Mary's ancestry and Joseph's. No need for sperm to be involved.
Colleen |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 165
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:10 pm: | |
Colleen,
Thank-you for your insights about marriage:
"It's not an accident that Paul commands men to love their wives and wives to respect their husbands. By nature, men tend to respect, and women tend to "mother" and be a bit blinded by the emotion of love. The command, however, is for men to draw on the power of the Holy Spirit to do what does not come naturally--to be tender and gentle and to love their wives, and women are to draw on the power of the Holy Spirit to let go of their cloying, suffocating tendency to manage their husbands because they want to make everything smooth and instead respect them and honor their decisions and wisdom."
It really is about learning new roles, those that might not come naturally without the Holy Spirit's help. I want to mother! But at the same time, I'm afraid of not being in control. So that is where I need to learn to respect and trust my husband's lead. Now, he also must learn to not want me to "mother" him and learn to take the lead! We probably fit together just fine with things reversed, but I want to grow in Christ and have a marriage that reflects that growth and trust in Jesus. So - we both have some "work" to do - that of letting go and letting God!
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Debbie2, I know it would be muuch easier to dialogue face to face. But the advantage of this forum is that there are so many friends that keep reminding us to "put our finger on the text" , meaning to keep it Biblical. I appreciate that type of accountability! So don't quit posting here if you also value that! And I don't believe that it matters if we are men or women when it comes to pointing each other to Jesus!
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Every question that is raised here leads me to a fuller understanding of Scripture. There is no wrong question! Even when we may disagree are learning. As long as I keep accepting the Holy Spirit's leading, I know I won't go wrong.
So, thanks to all of you for these discussions!
-tisha |
Debbie2
Registered user
Username: Debbie2
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:40 pm: | |
Thank you Tisha for your comforting words of encouragment. I do appreciate the Bible and that like the Bereans of old we can search it diligently to make sure of things. The Bible is in a way like a huge jigsaw puzzle that does fit together if given enough effort and time. And, some pieces take much more effort in finding the place for it. It's comparing text to text - until it seems to fit. And, even then you know that there's the possibility that another piece may come along later that fits even better (to make the picture of the puzzle even more clear).
Well, I am a person who loves analogies. 
Debbie |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1095
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:59 pm: | |
It was also the belief expressed back in the archived section that said Jesus was not pre-existent that directly contradicts John 1:1-3 where it clearly says that Jesus was the operative agent in creating the universe tht is very problematic. The very basic doctrine that all true Christians agree upon is the full deity of Christ, that he has always existed co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit as the triune God.
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3073
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 9:18 pm: | |
Yes, Stan--the identity of Jesus determines the truth of everything else that we believe. If our foundational belief in Jesus is skewed, we will be skewed about the rest of the Bible.
This fact is one reason Adventism (it's what I know; there are other groups in this category as well) is skewed about the atonement and salvation. Although they now say Jesus is eternally God, still their heritage deemed him created or not eternal or not of the substance of the Father. With a non-divine Jesus, his sacrifice doesn't have finality; his purpose was example more than susbstitute; he couldn't have solved the sin problem for all time; he could have been on a level playing field with Satan.
The identity of Jesus must be clear in order for all our conclusions to be consistent.
Colleen |
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