| Author | Message | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2002 |
There is an ongoing debate raging between the larger SDA church that believes in the trinity Godhead, and those who don't. I know that this debate goes back to the early centuries CE, but I am somewhat unclear on the non-trinitarian belief held in the church. I first became aware of this issue as a child when I noticed the difference between the Adventist Hymnal's version of Holy Holy Holy, and that of other's. The Adventist Hymnal says "God over all who rules eternity" and the others say "God in three persons, blessed trinity." It was explained to me that the trinity is a Catholic doctrine, and therefore we, as Adventists, do not believe in it. I have always believed in the Holy Trinity, but find it interesting that the church could be split on such a fundamental issue since the days of Ellen White. Could someone give a reasonably clear and concise summary of the differences, and state how widespread this debate is in Christianity at large? Thank you, | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2005 |
I ran across this once when surfing the net. http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity1.htm http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3011 Registered: 12-2003  |
Derrell, There really is no debate re: the Trinity in orthodox Christendom. Both Protestants and Catholics embrace the concept of the Three in One. In fact, the question was settled after the debates in the early centuries of the church--particularly because of the work of Athanasius. Deviations from this doctrince are considered heretical today. There are several varying non-trinitarian views. One is that Jesus is a created being; another is that He was begotten OF the Father before time but is not of the "same substance"--IOW, He came from the Father but is not Himself instrinsically God. He's related but not the "same substance". Still another view is that of modalism: God is One Person, but variously manifests Himself as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He has different "modes" which He employs depending upon the circumstances. This view is embraced by various denominations--I believe the Oneness Pentecostal Church is one that holds this view--but churches holding this view are considered cults by the rest of Christianity. Still another non-trinitarian view is that there are three "Gods", not One God with three Persons. IOW, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all separate Beings and not truly One God. Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches all agree on the nature of the Trinity. Churches who deviate from the traditional Three in One view are considered cults. The doctrine of Christ's nature was one of the things the church "altered" during Walter Martin's investigation of the SDA church. Had they failed to publicly proclaim Christ's sinless nature (which they did NOT teach prior to Martin's scrutiny), he would have declared them to be a cult. Two things were at stake: the identity of Jesus and the nature of the Trinity. The non-trinitarian views of early Adventism have never gone away. In fact, according to Geoge Knight, the SDA historian, there is currently a resurgence of the early non-trinitarian beliefs based on the teaching of the pioneer Adventists (their teachings being, supposedly, "purer" Adventism than modern modifications). The hymn Holy, Holy, Holy, was modified in the 1984 hymnal to read "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity". The fact is, however, that many other hymns with less obvious prhases but no less diminishing of the person of Christ, have remained altered from the authentic versioins of the hymns. For example, there is one--"On Jordan's Stormy Banks I Stand"--that contains the phrase "There God the Son forever reigns/And scatters night away." The SDA hymnal has changed that phrase to read, "There CHRIST THE SUN forever reigns..." They deliberately resisted identifying Jesus as God. Many hymns were changed in the SDA hymnal--and we thought we were singing the authrentic hymns of Christendom! Colleen | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2005 |
Colleen - what is the position of George Knight. Back to the pioneers SDA¥s, or? /D | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3042 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm not really sure, actually. What I read was more his reporting on what he has observed. True Adventism actually meshes better with an Arian (or semi-Arian) view of Jesus--the incomplete Adventist atonementóthe Great Controversy themeóthe sanctuary doctrine as taught by Adventism, etcóthese things don't make sense juxtaposed with a truly divine, eternal Jesus. Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on December 09, 2005) | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2005 |
I¥m shure the picture of the Trinity is important how the christian body express their faith and practice. The arian view and other non-trinitarian view puts a focus on other tings than what Jesus tried to show us when saying that we can only see God thru Him and in his life serving the Kingdom. The church filled with Holy Spirit vill be a church of faith, hope and love. Looking for these signs would be the best way to find a true church, at least they are the fruits. Looking to much into docrines and practice can put SDA out of this context, but hopefully not always. Enjoyed a DVD tonight - the movie Evelyn with Pierce Brosman playing. In short the movie was about a case standing up against the state and church in Ireland, corrupted by traditional lawkeeping and practice. A final quote that turned the whole case around was to express the Holy Trinity to be the antitype for the family. The Holy Trinity (Family) that express Faith, Hope and Love. Would it not be that looking upon the Trinity this way should make the christian life unresistible... /D | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2005 |
I guess my use of antitype is completly out of context. Prototype must be a better word. Please have mercy upon my use of english :-) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 355 Registered: 8-2004  |
 Yes Prototype would probably fit better! I love the movie Evelyn! It makes an excellent case for challenging 'Goliath' when necessary to protect our families! I also love the fact that it was the real Evelyn that pressed forward to have her father's story told in film. Mary | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Derrell: E.G. White says: "Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support". GC88 594. The trinity doctrine says: "God is a unity of three co-eternal persons ... is above all" See no. 2 of the now 28 fundamental beliefs. My Bible says: There is "One God and Father who is above all and in you all". See Ephesians 4:6. The trinity doctrine teaches that no literal divine Son of the Living Father existed prior to the time he was born of Mary. See pages 94-97 of the book "The Trinity" by Whidden, Moon, and Reeve. R&H Publishing, 2002. Read Daniel 3:25. E.G. White says: "How did Nebuchadnezzar know the form of the fourth was the Son of God? He had heard fo the Son of God from the Hebrew captives that were in his kingdom. They had brought the knowledge of the living God who ruleth all things." R H May 3, 1892. The trinity doctrine teaches that the divine Son of God did not die. See page 249 "The Trinity" by Whidden, Moon, and Reeve. My Bible says: The Son of God is the true and faithful witness Rev. 3:14. He says: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore". Rev. 1:18 Read Matthew 16:21-23. E.G. White says: "Satan had suggested to his (Peter's) mind that if Jesus was the Son of God he could not die". See 3SP 231. E.G. White says: "All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher, and when he came forth it was the whole being, he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven." For myself, I worship the same God and Father who Jesus Christ worshiped and who is the only true God and who is above all. See John 17:3 and John 20:17. I do not worship a "unity of three co-eternal persons". Darrell, you need to study this issue very thoroughly. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1157 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Grwaitemd, Welcome to FAF. What do you make of John 1:1-3? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and lived for awhile among us".. What could be clearer than these simple statements about who Jesus is? Just something for you to prayerfully consider. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3176 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome Grwaitemd. We'd love to hear more about your story. I agree with Stans' commends/recommendation above. Just FYI, the quotations you stated above are not true Trinitarian teachings. They are Adventist statements, and Adventists have had a confused view of the Trinity since their inception. Ellen White never was consistent in her definition of Jesus' identity. The early Adventists were nearly all anti-trinitarian. For example, this statement above, "The trinity doctrine teaches that no literal divine Son of the Living Father existed prior to the time he was born of Mary. See pages 94-97 of the book "The Trinity" by Whidden, Moon, and Reeve. R&H Publishing, 2002. ", is NOT representative of the doctrine of the Trinity. There is a growing movement among many Adventists to return to the early Adventists' non-trinitarian roots. You cannot understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity by reading Adventist publications. That being said, the New Testament as a whole teaches the eternal divinity of Jesus. His identity as the Messiah was obscured before his incarnation, but after He came and revealed God to humanity, much more about Him and about the Holy Spirit was uncovered for us. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are clearly separete person, but the Bible defines them all as part of the One God. Their roles differ, but their substance/essence is the same. They work as a unity for the salvation and glorification of humanity. They together give gifts to men and allow us to be intimate with God. When Thomas saw the risen Christ and touched his hands and side, he said, "My Lord and my God!" "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' î (John 20:28-29) Jesus here received Thomas's worship and confirmed his addressing Him as Lord and God. No righteous created being accepts human worship in the Bible. God alone receives worship. You cannot arrive at a Biblical doctrine of the Trinity by defining the doctrine by looking at Adventist writings about the it. They have historically never consistently espoused orthodox Biblical teaching about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is our Lord and Savior! Colleen | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Riverfonz: John 1:1-3 has a sequence of events: first event: "In the beginning was the Word"; second event: "the Word was with the God"; third event: "the Word was God". In the original Greek the word "the" comes before the first God. The second God does not have the word "the" before it. The first word "God" is a noun and the second word "God" is an adjective. | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Colleentinker: Just because Thomas said: "My Lord and My God" does not necessarly mean that Jesus was both his Lord and his God. In making this statment, he could have meant that Jesus was his Lord and the Father of Jesus was his God. Jesus Christ, the One who died in my place said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life" and "I am the true and faithful witness". He said: "This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". He said: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethern, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God, and to your God". Did Jesus Christ, the One who died for your sins, worship a "unity of three co-eternal persons" (1/3 of which would be a worship of himself) or did he worship his Father who is "the only true God"? |
