| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 374 Registered: 7-2004  |
I was surfing some areas of CARM that I normally don't and came across this question. It made me stop and think for a little while. What do all of you think? Do we pray to Jesus or only to the Father through Jesus? Does it matter? The CARM site suggested that it was a characteristic of cults to only pray through Jesus and not to Him. Any thoughts? http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trujesus.htm | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2052 Registered: 3-2004  |
Doesn't the Lord's prayer say, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" then we close "In Jesus Name". Can't remember the text about Jesus saying to ask the Father anything in His name and it would be given us. So it seems to me we pray to the Father through Jesus. Diana | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2005 |
This actually came up on the R/S forum as well. To be honest, I have never given it a lot of thought... Now that I think about it, I generally start my prayers with 'Dear Lord' or 'Heavenly Father' and end them with 'In Jesus Name'. But, having said that, I don't think it is anything I consciously do. I don't think there would be an issue either way. Maybe it would fall under the realm of the Holy Spirit knowing what we mean and handling it appropriately. InSearchOf | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 375 Registered: 7-2004 |
I ask this because the comment on CARM that I linked suggests that all of the cults pray "through Jesus" but not "to Jesus". And that this is related to the diminished view of Christ's divinity. And it struck me that nearly all SDA prayer that I can think of concludes with "in Jesus name" much like the addition of this phrase to the Lord's prayer in Diana's post. And I had to stop and think about what SDA indoctrination has done to my own public prayer style. I'm self conscious enough about public prayer already, now I'll be even worse! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2982 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've also wondered about this topic. About a year ago I read a chapter in Wayne Grudem re: prayer, and he listed some places where Jesus was particularly addressed in prayer. When Stephen was dying he said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59). The conversation in which Ananias received instructions to go to the blinded Saul and pray over him was with Jesus, because he tells Saul, "The Lord JesusÖhas sent me that you may regain your sight" (Acts 9:10-16). 1 Corinthians 16:22 says, "Our Lord, come!" This addresses Jesus. Revelation 22:20 is a prayer to Jesus: "Come, Lord Jesus!" In 2 Cor 12:8 Paul prayed to "the Lord" about his thorn in the flesh. Also, the fact that Jesus is a merciful, faithful high priest who can sympathize with us in our weakness suggests that we are free to pray for Him and find His help when we are in need. While there is no Biblical example of prayer to the Holy Spirit, He is fully God. The entire Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant church has agreed that it is proper to praise and worship the entire Trinity: "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", etc. There seems no reason NOT to be able to pray to the HS. I believe that the significance of the Lord's Prayer model to "Our Father" was not as much a command as establishing a new relationship with God. Israel experienced God as transcendent with little understanding of the Trinity. They considered His name so holy that they could not even pronounce it. Calling Him "Father" would have seemed blasphemous to them--too familiar, disrespectful, etc. Jesus was demonstrating that because of Him, we would be able to call God "Father". He was encouraging His people to see God as One who adopted and loved them as He loved Jesus. He was introducing the new idea of Christ-followers being members of God's family. Israel had not been considered God's "family" but God's "People". It is a unique, unprecedented New Covenant privilege for us to be able to call God "Father". The whole idea of being in Christ and Christ being in us and of our being one with the Father and His adopted children and of the Holy Spirit being in us--all of us one with each other--is the mystery of the new covenant. It puts all of us in new relationships with the entire Trinity as well as with each other. We now can "know" God, and we have direct access to the entire Trinity. I also suspect that the Trinity's different roles help determine how we pray. The Holy Spirit testifies to us of ChristóHis purpose is not to draw attention to Himself but to the Lordship of Jesus. Jesus has opened a new, living way to the Father, and He is our mediator and defender. Ric, I wonder if the reason cults often don't pray "to" Jesus has to do with the fact that Jesus makes them uncomfortable. His sacrifice is that disconcerting reality that most cults want to avoid. I know that I seldom heard public prayers in Adventism addressed to Jesus. In fact, I seldom heard the name of Jesus used in public unless there was a specific "lesson" about Him. Often, even the ends of prayers avoided mentioning Jesus. It seems usually public SDA prayers began with "Our Heavenly Father" and ended with "in Thy name, Amen." Praise the Lord Jesus that we can call on our Father directly, and the Holy Spirit even intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1078 Registered: 7-2003  |
It's also worth noting that whether one adresses the Father, Son, or Spirit they are praying to the One Triune God. While the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct there is only one single being that is God and God in His substance and essence is not divisible. In one sense you can't pray to one person of the Triune God without praying to all three persons since there is only one God. I think that is why some cults make such a big deal out of praying "through" Jesus and not "to" Jesus. They do not see Jesus as fully God and fully equal with the Father so they are uncomfortable praying directly to Him because it is an act of worship that can only be given to the One True God. You will notice that "Walk in the Light" on the RS forum makes a very big deal of this and doesn't think it's proper to pray "to" Jesus. Of course, if Jesus is anything less than the One True God YWHW, then we really shouldn't pray directly to him. Fortunately, scripture makes it abundantly clear literally dozens of times that Jesus is YWHW, the only God. Chris | ||
| Lars Registered user Username: Lars Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2005 |
I can't express in human terms the joy that overcame me when the Holy Spirit revealed Romans 8:25 - 27 to me many years ago: New Living Translation: 25But if we look forward to something we donít have yet, we must wait patiently and confidently. 26And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we donít even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. 27And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with Godís own will. I definitely praise and pray to the One who straightens out my messy prayers!!! Larry | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 781 Registered: 7-2004 |
The scriptures say that one day every tongue will confess, and every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus. Sounds like prayer to me. Sounds like worship to me. If it's going to be sometime, why not now? | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2005 |
Chris, You bring up a good point. Upon reflection, it does seem that those who make an issue of this seem to view Jesus (and/or the Trinity) in a diminished capacity. Perhaps that is why they make a big deal out of it. I notice that one of the posters on the R/S site mentioned that most NT epistiles are addressed to the Father and the Son, not the Holy Spirit. I believe that he may have been implying that the Holy Spirit is somewhat 'less than' God the Father or God the Son. Of course, he also makes an issue of the 'begottenness' of Jesus as well... InSearchOf | ||
| Prinsen Registered user Username: Prinsen Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 |
Interesting topic really, how to adress God in prayer. My experience is that Adventists usually adress God "Dear Father", "Dear Lord" or "hevenly Father" while Evangelicals most frequently adress him "Dear Jesus". The difference is very clear I'd say. I think it mirrors emphasis in theology a bit, doesn't it? Personally I find no reason that adressing God either "Father", "Jesus" or "Holy Spirit" should be wrong but I mostly often find myself praying to Jesus because of what he did for me on the Cross. /Martin | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 349 Registered: 8-2004  |
In my childhood the children were taught to pray "Dear Jesus", while the adults, so far as I remember, generally said, "Dear Father", or "Our Father in Heaven". I somehow drew the conclusion early on that praying to Jesus was something that was more childish than the more formal "Our Father". It is interesting to me how our perceptions change over time! I now find myself praying/talking to all three members of the Trinity. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 157 Registered: 4-2005 |
I agree with Chris. I personally talk to all Three - the Holy ALL - in my prayers. J.I. Packer has written a marvelous book on the Holy Spirit, entitled "Keep in Step With The Spirit - Finding Fullness in Our Walk With God." (second edition) For anyone interested in a deeper, closer focus upon the Precious Holy Spirit, I heartily endorse this book. Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3000 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agreeóit's a good book, Jess! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2074 Registered: 11-2002 |
When Jesus was a baby the wisemen and the shepards came to see him, bringing wonderful gifts. In the account of this great event it says, "And when they saw the star, they rejoyced exceedingly with great joy. And thety came into the house and saw the child with Mary His mother. And falling down, they worshipped Him; and opening their treasures, they offered gifts to Him, gold and frankinscense and myrrh." Matthew 2:10-11.So, there we have it. Jesus was worshipped as a newborn baby. Folks weren't required to wait for His Bar mitfa, His baptism, His death, His resurrection or His assention before He was worshipped. He was worshipped as The Messiah, The Chosen One right from the start. |
