| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1013 Registered: 3-2005 |
Wow Loneviking, now we have a discussion forum for trumpet players. Thanks for sharing. Lisa, as much as we all like music, if you have found a church that is Biblical and preaches the New Covenant, that would be a church worth staying in. Stan | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2004 |
Before I move any further, I should declare my bias. I am employed as the Director of Contemporary Music for a medium-sized, rapidly growing mainstream congregation. From my perspective, you cannot fully separate artistry from music. When you are involved in leading worship, you are involved in the process of allowing the Holy Spirit to work through you to guide yourself and others into an atmostphere of worship. However, you are also involved in the logistical process of playing chords and singing notes. Through practice, many musicians become more proficient at the logistics of music. Hopefully, through the continued development of a relationship with Jesus Christ, true worshippers also become more proficient at reflecting Christ. However, at no point do musicians completely move away from the reality that leading worship involves both the spiritual element and the logistical element. Therefore, to some degree, ALL music could be considered a performance. Determining how much an expression of music is "performance" requires us to answer the following question: "how much was the musician focused on the logistical aspect of music and how much was the musician focused on the spiritual aspect of music?" To answer this question is to judge someone's motives (which Scripture tells us we should not do). Although it may not be the intention of anyone who has posted here, I have heard it said in other arenas that contemporary worship is more performance-based and traditional worship is more spirit-based. Although I will be the first to admit that performance for the sake of performance does in fact happen in contemporary worship, I would also point out that anyone who has visited a church that practices "high church" (i.e. operatic singing supported by mass choirs and huge orchestral arrangements) can immediately recognize that traditional worship also lends itself to performance for the sake of performance. At the end of the day, it seems to me that when you visit a church service, you will find what you want to find. If you plan to scrutinize the musicians to determine whether they are performing for the sake of performing, you might easily reach such a conclusion. However, if you attend a worship service to commune with God, as a natural outgrowth of the relationship that you've had with God all week long, your focus will not be on the intent of the musicians. By the way, does anyone have any thoughts about why musicians are more suseptible to being charged with being focused on performance for the sake of performance than are pastors and public speakers? There is most certainly a logistical side to presenting a sermon that could be considered performance-based? Could it possibly be that fears about "performance in worship" are more related to personal taste than anything else? Just curious. Let me know what you think. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 230 Registered: 6-2001  |
You make a lot of good points tdf. In my perspective the more "practiced" something appears the more likely I may think it is a "performance." If the worship leader is drawing attention to himself through the song, does that make it a performance, or am I too easily distracted? I'm not sure. Maybe worship that is so "artistic" should not be used in corporate worship. To respond to your question about musicians being susceptible, I think it is because secularly, music is only ever performance where as public speakers serve an alternate purpose of disseminating information. And you are right, this "performing" is also apparent in the public pray-er as well as the pastor. I myself prefer a laid back type of preaching. I dont think Jesus went out back and practiced his hand gestures and inflections in front of a mirror before He preached His Sermon on the Mount. But at the same time I know God speaks to people in different ways. Open-mindedly, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2930 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tdf, interesting--I have enjoyed the contemporary worship at our church because it has seemed less performance-driven than the high church I had always preferred in the past. Actually, I see no difference between classical and contemporary music in terms of performance. To me they seem equally vulnerable to performance for the sake of performing. I agree with what you say, however--and I actually believe that the more attention is given to the music in rehearsal, in general the more likely it will be that the music can be truly worshipful. I don't believe that "spontaneous" music is more intrinsically worshipful than well-practiced music. Actually, the more well-rehearsed the music is, the more it's likely to be able to convey worship in a public setting (in my opinion) as long as those performing are surrendered to Jesus and are worshiping I realize my bias is shaped by my classical training. I'm just so thankful that God has backed me off from my "purist" views and that I can worship Him freely in ways I would never have dreamed possible in the past. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 383 Registered: 7-2000 |
Interesting question! I often find that churches open up the praise team to anyone---much like a community band. That's good as music should be a gift to be shared. But---it also means that the music is going to have to be rehearsed over and over again. That woodeness, the lack of spontaneouty is often perceived as performance. Contrast that with a group composed of musicians who have been playing their instruments for decades and are proficient as both soloists and group players. They can follow lead and change tempo, tune or key on a dime. It seems looser, more spontaneous---and it is. But that's a level that a lot folks just aren't at. Why musicians instead of public speakers? Probably because music is often a group activity with different instruments or voices used at different points in the music. To a non-musician that doesn't understand how music is written and performed, it can come across as 'showboating' when it's not. Quite frankly, it's real hard for me to think like a non-musician. But, what I'm relating are some of the things I've heard others say. Bill | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2004 |
If I may, I would like to say that skill is very important regardless of whether the performance is classical or contemporary. When God himself was choosing who would create the various portions of the tabernacle, He named goldsmiths to work with gold, jewelers to work with jewels, carpenters and skilled artists to do the building and carving. He also expected that the people performing the services in His worship would be the best performers available. Think about the way the priests, and especially the High Priest were dressed and you will recall that they were supposed to bathe in a specified manner, and their clothing, from the skin out, had to be the best and perfectly clean. Sounds to me like skill and pride are a part of worship. None of that has changed from that time until now. We also know that for some of the people who were involved in all of these things their own egos got in the way. No matter, that is between them and God. When I go to church I go for the whole package and for the opportunity to participate in corporate worship. That means that I bring my expectations to the table, and my personal presumptions and prejudices. Isn't it possible to be blessed by the performance of someone whose heart may not be completely in the right place but yours is? I've also witnessed performances by people who were completely sold out to the Lord, but their efforts have left a lot to be desired. I prefer musical performance by well-schooled and rehearsed performers, but am amazingly blessed when I can sense that their hearts and talents belong to Jesus. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 384 Registered: 7-2000 |
Riverfonz, btw, if you like high note trumpet playing then you need to be listening online to www.jazzplayerradio.com Here's some other excellent Christian trumpet players: http://www.davidoneill.com/index.htm www.danoxley.com www.royroman.com www.principaltrumpet.com If you have DSL or Cable, keep clicking on the intro. and the song changes at the principal trumpet site. Have fun and wreck the speakers! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1015 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Loneviking, this will motivate me even more to get out my horn and start practicing more! Stan | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2004 |
Loneviking, I tend to agree with your comments regarding spontenaity being an outgrowth of more experience. Spontaneity is difficult (if not impossible) for those who have had little experience in leading worship. However, the only way to gain experience is to try, and try again. Our church does not "audition" praise team members. Rather, we have employed a "come as you are" approach. With that said, we try to plug people in based on their abilities. For example, a novice guitarist would likely play rhythm guitar and not lead parts (until the guitarist has enough experience to feel comfortable doing so). Belva, I agree that God uses skilled workers. Although I would never want to exclude anyone based on skill, I do think that rehearsal is valuable and that God can be glorified through some intentional effort on the part of those who lead worship. In my experience, rehearsals can be just as worshipful as the actual worship service. The praise team that I lead is like a family, and when we get together to rehearse, it's like a homecoming. To all, I have heard the opinion expressed among folks at my church that congregational worship is more worshipful and that solo expressions of worship are more performance-based and are therefore not as pleasing to God. I don't know whether anyone who posts here has an issue with "solos." If you do, can I challenge you with another way to look at the subject? Throughout many services there are opportunities for speakers to testify through the spoken word to the goodness of God. During such moments, one person is leading while the congregation is reflecting. This is a legitimate expression of worship. The same can be accomplished through music. Not all expressions of music in worship must be congregational. Worship is helpful to set a mood, to move the congregation into an atmosphere of worship. At times, non-congregational music is placed at the beginning of a worship service as a time of reflection, a time to prepare for worship. At other times, non-congregational music is used to maintain a worshipful mood during such worship elements as offering and communion. IMO, just as it is possible for congregational music to be preformance-based, it is also possible for "solos" to be spirit-based. OK. I've probably ranted enough. Thanks for your patience. It was therapeutic to get that off of my chest. :-) | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2005 |
I was never involved in music. I once remember hanging out with a friend on the Sabbath that was in the Choir. I was to meet her after choir practice. Well, they just weren't getting it right so I sat and watched and waited for over an hour. A few times during the practice the pastor barged into the church yelling at the people in the choir to control their kids because they were running around the church making noise and he couldn't concentrate. Of course, there was nobody there to take care of the kids while their parents were in the choir not perfecting their performance. What is an extra hour or two on the Sabbath. You must dedicate this day to God anyway, nevermind the kids. What awful parents you are for not teaching your children to sit tight for another hour on the Sabbath! I just remember a few of the moms nervously looking at their children hoping they would be good. My friend was also harshly reprimanded for not going with the choir out of town at her own expense. Nevermind that she was a mom of two young children, nevermind worship. I guess it was just the culture. But now, I see people singing because they love God and worshiping and Praising Jesus in Song! Feels great! Wow! But I do remember the importance of performance and those that performed being controlled by those in the church on the Sabbath. I didn't want to get involved in anything in the church because I didn't want to be controlled like I saw people in the church being controlled. My husband enjoys singing and I saw him sing in his Sunday church solo a couple of times. I enjoyed listening to him practice at home. I thank God for my husband. He spontaneously fills our home with song and dance with singing and piano and guitar with our children. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2004  |
TDF, At the risk of being opposed by many of the musicians here, I will take a stab at the differences between congregational singing, solos, and speakers as it relates to performance and worship. But before I proceed let me say that there are certainly cases of public prayer and public speaking that are performances. I don't think that spontaneity somehow makes something more Spiritual or creates a better worship environment. An unpracticed or poor job of speaking, praying, playing or singing can distract from the worship rather than contribute. The difference between music, prayer and message is that everyone can participate outloud together in music. There are some opportunities to do this in prayer and message through prepared prayers and responsive readings, but on the whole if everyone is talking at the same time it creates bedlam in which no message can be made. Quite a different result than everyone signing together. Song is one of the few opportunities that the whole congregation has to actively participate together in the worship service. When this opportunity is repeatedly taken away from the congregation there can be several natural outcomes. People become more disengaged from worship and the worship service becomes something that is done by the ministry team and received by the congregation. Or they express their dissatisfaction with the "performances" of the music. Perhaps a church that is hearing too many comments about the performances of musicians is really hearing a plea from the rest of the church to be more involved in the worship service. One of the things I enjoy most about the typical contemporary service is that those of us with less musical talent have more opportunity to actively join in the praising of God. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1054 Registered: 7-2003  |
I wanted to comment on the idea that practice leads to a lack of sincerity or spirituality. I have to stick to the speaking side of things because that is where I believe I have been given my gifts. Whether weíre talking about music or speaking it really comes down to your motivation. Why are you doing this, to gain the praise of men or to give glory to God? Motivation is a matter of the heart not a matter of style, spontanaity, or practice. When I speak I practice extensively. I pray for the Holy Spirit to speak through me and to illuminate the Word of God in the hearts of the people. However, I do not presumptuously assume that I can just show up on Sunday morning and the Spirit will make me sound coherent even if I havenít bothered to prep. I generally believe we are expected to use and develop our gifts and that sometimes means hard work and practice while relying on the leading of the Spirit. So when I practice delivering the sermon I do work on the technical aspects of speaking. Do I do this for the praise of men? I truly hope that is not my primary motivator, but I will admit I do have enough sin in me that I fear failure and have a deep desire to succeed at what I do. If weíre brutally honest with ourselves we probably all struggle with some pride. Still, I pray that God will give me the right motivation. I pray that my motivations will be purely for the advancement of the Kingdom and the edification of His people. If I go before the church and I stumble around searching for thoughts or for words, if I devilver the message in a wooden and monotone fashion, if I drone on and on, if I ramble without any coherent thought or theme am I not misusing my God given gifts? If I do these things because of laziness and lack of preparation am I not harming the message? The Gospel is Good News and it should sound like it! Walking with Jesus is exciting and it should sound like it! The Bible is logical and cogent and the message should be clear and cogent. The stories in the Bible are gripping and they should be told that way. The message of scripture is one of life and death and it should be delivered with all the gravity it deserves. It seems to me that to participate in worship with one ounce less ability then you've been given is to shirk a duty that has been laid on your shoulders. This is true whether you are a speaker or a musician. Chris | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 385 Registered: 7-2000 |
I agree that musicians and speakers should both practice to be the best that they should be. Motivation, though, is where the analogy between speaker and musicians begins to fray. For most musicians, music is something they HAVE to do. If they don't make music, a part of them would die. Sharing music is also a part of that passion and that desire to perform burns very strongly in some folks. Is that a wrong motivation? Is it even a motivation? Or is it just the way we musicians are hardwired and what counts is what we do with our gifts? Just some random thoughts from a performing musician.... Bill | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2005 |
I am not a musician as such (although I have paticipated in choirs and mens' chorus for years), my gifts run to preaching and teaching. It may be hard for musicians to comprehend, but in many ways, preaching and teaching are things I have to do in the same way that musicians have to perform. When God gives a gift, whether it is music, preaching, teaching or whatever it may be, I believe that the desire to share that burns strongly - it is something they HAVE to do because it is something they are CALLED to do. I can sympathize with those here that miss the opportunity to exercise their musical gift. Since I expressed doubts about some of the core SDA doctrines, I have been unable to preach and my teaching is restrained so I don't step on too many toes. InSearchOf | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1056 Registered: 7-2003 |
Wow, Loneviking!!!!!!! Do you REALLY mean that or was that tongue and cheek???? Do you really think that musicians have a need to use their gifts that teachers and preachers don't? I have to think you were being a bit factious, but just in case you might have been a teensy weensy bit serious, let me correct that notion. I have been teaching a class line by line through the Gospel of John and it has been one of the greatest worship experiences of my life! The preparation for the class is growth experience and fulfilling in and of itself, but the time spent instructing my class fills me up in a way that nothing else does. When Iím interacting with all these people who are so hungry to know the Word of God and Iím able to open the Word to them in a way they have never experienced it gives me such a sense of being Godís servant-tool. By the time class is over I am sometimes almost moved to tears as I see people ìgetting itî and I am SOOOO ready to worship. It is the highlight of my week. There is no doubt in my mind that this is my place in the Body of Christ and this is what the Lord would have me doing. If you took my class away from me I feel like a part of me would die if I didnít have some other outlet to teach in. Teaching for the pulpit is also fulfilling for me, but probably not to the same extant that teaching an interactive group is. However, I donít doubt that God has gifted certain men and women in such a way that they have an absolute need to by fulfilling Godís plan in their life by preaching weekly. We canít all be eyes, or hands, or feet, but weíre all members of the body and I assure you that every Christian has a Spirit driven need and desire to fulfill their role in the Body and use the Spiritual Gifts theyíve been given. Chris | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 759 Registered: 7-2004 |
Amen, and again I say Amen. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1057 Registered: 7-2003 |
Obviously proof reading my posts isn't one of my gifts.....my last one was rather illiterate. Even I had to read several lines twice to figure out what the heck I was saying. My thoughts sometimes over take my fingers...... :-) Okay Chris, "READ, then post", #1 READ, #2 post. I seem to reverse that order on a regular basis........ Chris | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2000 |
No, Chris, I'm just pointing out that your gift is on a bit differnt level. Your gift, as a speaker, is really used only before a group. A musicians gift is something that they use daily--usually in the lonely exercise known as 'practice'. Couple that with the practice of music arrangers writing solo parts for different instruments and some folks seem to suspect musicians of 'grandstanding' and 'performances'. Don't worry---I know the joy and satisfaction of being a teacher as well! | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2005 |
I am classically trained and while people say that this is great i would like to know if anyone has any tips on how to break free of music and play by ear. Does anyone know of any tool i could use to help. I am a pianist and would love to be able to play spontaneously,effortlessly going thru chord progressions without stumbling. I can hear all the correct harmonies in my head in fact i write gospel on manuscript but i could use some advice on how to successfully play by ear in any key. It is particularly frustrating when the verse or chorus raises up a semitone each time and i do not have the aptitude to go along with it. I think very methodically and dont understand theoretical language as well as the practical application. So dont talk to me about diminshed 4ths and 5ths and dominant 7ths e.t.c. I am the kind of musician that would play these chords naturally but i could not tell you what i am playing i just know that it sounds correct. Can anyone help this mumbo jumbo trying to be ex-Adventist girl?? THANKYOU!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2942 Registered: 12-2003 |
I've never done very well playing by ear either, Anotherseeker. I've gotten better, though, by just doing it at home a lot. Our son had a really good classical teacher, but he did something no SDA piano teacher I know ever would do. Along with the classics, this teacher had regular sessions in jazz chording and progression, even including Roy making up his own progressions. This jazz experience has really helped Roy with praise and worship music and playing by ear. Of course, he has an awesome ear and picks up things by ear well. But the instruction in jazz helped. Colleen |
