| Author | Message | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 108 Registered: 3-2005 |
I would like some input about music from a church standpoint. The whole culture of music in church has changed drastically in the past 20 years. I am not addressing music style as much as the fact that as a young child and after, church was a place to perform. Now all the churches I know are dominated by a "worship team" that does all the music with very few chances if any for others to perform as a gift to God. It is not performing to join the worship team, or the choir most of the time either. Many would say that church is not a place to hear a performance, but to worship. That attitude is obvious from the fact musicians will tell you as common practice that if performances are occasionally allowed, there are at least a few barbs after each performance from the "saints"... just pure and unadulterated jealousy spouted off via the mouth, that would not be found in a jazz club or concert as people are going there paying to hear quality and love it when they get it. Church saints almost seem to feel more comfortable with a fumbling soul then with quality from the comments passed out. Now not everyone is rude after a performance. Some are gracious and wonderful, but what non-musicians don't understand is the need to perform without ANY NEED AT ALL FOR COMMENTS as long as there's a mutual experience of goodness or beauty or heart experience. There seems to be this huge misunderstanding as to why a person would want to perform. The judgment is an assumption of showing off, pride, etc... when it's just as natural for a musician to love to perform as a builder to love to build houses, or a landscaper to make a yard beautiful for it's observers, a quilting pro to share the colors and seams and warmth with another. I'll have to say that the Adventist church seemed to be more understanding of the need to perform years back, and I've been told it's changed in our current church as well over the years. Any ideas on how to use your musical need to perform for God. I absolutely refuse to do the elbowing trick to gain ground with this bunch. I find that a rather ugly tactic. Ok, I'm anxious for your wisdom. | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2004 |
>>I'll have to say that the Adventist church seemed to be more understanding of the need to perform years back..>>> Had to chuckle at this - The irony here is too much to go without pointing out. - although I do take your actual meaning too. Worship is not a performance, and on the other hand, musicians naturally seek out a venue to share their talent. Some of the members of our (very talented)worship leadership often perform with other Christian artists at bookstores, Christian coffee houses, there is even a Christian nightclub in town where artists can perform. They cut CD's and occasionally share a song or two from the CD during the offering part of worship. (offering is done DURING worship, because it IS worship). It seems to help maintain a good balance and avoids the 'look at me' trap. I know it does get frustrating as a musician or artist not to feel there is enough support for using our gifts for God and the body of Christ. In fact I am in the long process of getting some folks together to start a think-tank project on how to integrate the arts into body life more. We have writers and artists contribute to our church website - and hope to establish an in-house coffee shop and art gallery at some (probably long-off) point. I love worshipping as part of our choir - mostly becasue of the awesome prayer time and the priveledge of ushering others into the presence of God - sometimes it feels like our feet don't even touch the ground! I don't understand what you mean by "the elbowing trick" - can you enlighten me? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2918 Registered: 12-2003  |
We also are really blessed with a very talented and large rotating worship team. We often sing songs many of them write. Occasionally they "perform" a song during worship. Being a musician myself (and not currently involved in any performance), I noticed the lack of "performing". I've personally found it wonderful. As a music major, I know so well the underlying critical eye that musicians often carried into their SDA services. I don't know how your church functions, Lisa--can you volunteer to try out for the worship team? At our church you can. Colleen | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 110 Registered: 3-2005 |
The need to perform is so misunderstood. I guess that's what I'm saying. There is not a shred of "look at me" in it. It's just not there. It's part of being alive for me. Part of who I am. Part of how I worship. Part of how I celebrate Christmas. Part of how I celebrate True Love (weddings). Part of how I rejoice. Do I judge the pastor for having a "look at me" attitude because he has a deep need to share the word of God via words in front of people? I hope not. The critical eye you are remembering comes from jealousy and selfishness, not from the love of sharing God's heart with the performer. That's my point exactly. Church seems to have a very judgmental view on performance unlike clubs and other musical venues and it's sad to me I have to sing love songs to a slightly buzzed audience because there's no place to sing for God without being judged for having "look at me" itis. Do you hear what I'm saying? The coffee shop/art- gallery conceptÖ have been there done that. Very cool idea. We put one together for our college community. It was a fun place to do music and I enjoyed it. It's not an option here. Well, there are a million ways to look at things. Right now weddings and parties, fund raisers and life events are the ways I'm celebrating the chance to sing. Maybe that's the way it will stay, and maybe that's ok. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 381 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, as a musician I understand where you're coming from. Sometimes you have to create your own oppourtunities. I play trumpet and sing---I also have a good friend who is one of the best keyboardists I've ever heard and he also sings. We've finally found someone who plays bass. We're working on a small group that can tour the smaller, local churches as a ministry. There are also (in many place) quite a few public opportunites. Have you heard of the 'Master Chorale' program that is in place across our country? How about a little theater or community theater---many of these need singers. Is there a small, local church that desperately needs someone who can lead the music on Sunday morning? Just some ideas.......... | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1007 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hey Loneviking, I am a trumpet player too. One of the things I do miss about my SDA upbringing is the emphasis on special music. When I played special music, however, it was an opportunity to skip around to several different churches in our area, just so I could get away from my parent's church! There were some positive things about growing up Adventist. Stan | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2004 |
I think maybe it is a languaging thing - performance vs. worship. I think what you are describing is worship, but I guess I don't get the difference between singing in the choir as worship and doing a solo as worship. I am a singer too and in fact was always in the 'limelight' for this talent, whether I liked it or not. (dad studied opera, sis is music professor, uncle 'singing evangelist', we cut first album when I was 6) It was kinda like it was expected that if you had a musical talent, it was used in a certain way at a certain time - just another 'rule', sorta. I LOVE singing and LOVE music. But I have come to dislike the idea of the 'performance' paradigm that I grew up with. And, whether or not the individual worshiper has 'look at me' in mind, it does happen. Are you being 'judged'? Maybe. That, however, is not for us to know (or judge!!!) I really believe when we focus on just worship (ascribing worth to God - the audience of ONE), then however it looks, it is between us and God, and we can let go of judging other's reactions or thoughts about it. They think whatever they think - that's between them and God. Our only job is to ascribe to THEM the unsurpassable worth and unconditional love that Jesus ascribed to US at the cross. When we are truly 'worshiping' as opposed to 'merely' performing, God's presence becomes real in a way that bears witness to unbelievers and believers alike.(and I acknowledge it is probably just semantics here -so bear with me - I get that what you are calling performance IS your gift of worship) Just some thoughts. | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2004 |
just one more note - worship is a powerful form of warfare. So it makes sense that the enemy would try to divide believers on this issue. And distract folks or tempt them to pride or lust or gossip or judgement or whatever their issue is. I have sat in worship and just had to close my eyes because a member of a worship team was dressed innapropriately or was dancing in a somewhat provocative way and it was distracting for me. Do I judge them? NO - I just know it was distracting for ME. I can see that maybe it wasn't the best choice they might make, but I come to no conclusion about their character or their relationship with Jesus because of that. Can I hear if someone is off key? well, yeah. does that mean I am judging them? absolutely not. Being off key is no indicator of the sincerety of the worship - God says make a joyful NOISE, not make an on-key noise. hehe. good thing, too. ;-) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2924 Registered: 12-2003 |
Marcell, thank you for your insisghts. I was especially struck by your comment that since wroship is a powerful form of spiritual warfare, Satan will try to divide the body on this issue. I have really had to work through the whole music "thing" in my life. In my case, "musician" was my primary identity for many years--all my growing up, all through my music major in college, through graduate work in music, and for years later. I know I've told this before, but its been a few years, so I'll mention it here. In the early 90's we transferred our membership to LLU Church. For reasons I will never completely understand, suddenly almost all performance opportunities "dried up". Occasionally I played here and there, and I even became involved for a couple of seasons in a local orchestra and played some fun and challenging music there. I cannot explain how desloate I felt as the months passed with no consistent musical outlet. I would sit in church or in concerts and begin weeping with almost no provocation. The sense of loss was similar to (although not quite as devastating as) the later loss as I exited the church. I loved music, and I had never approached performance as "showing off" (at least--I tried not to!) Ever since a young age I had always prayed that God would play through me and that those listening would see and hear Him. I prayed "without ceasing" that God would bring opportunities for me to play back into my life. I remember one evening in the early 90s standing in the kitchen doing something with dirty dishes and the remains of supper, and for some reason I was crying about the loss of music in my life. I realized that it felt "odd" to me that almost no one in our new community knew me as a "musician". I felt that an important part of who I was had been taken from me. After all, if people didn't know me as a musician, they really didn't know the essence of me. I remember having an astonishing thought in the middle of my flood of sadness: God was removing my self-identity as a musician so I could become identified with Him. I didn't really know what that meant at the time, but I realized that it was a profound insight whose implications were important. Ultimately, as He led us out of the church, God gave me new work to do that I had never prepared for and had not ever even thought of doing. As I have continued studying the Bible and have become involved in ministry to people also struggling with Adventism, I have realized increasingly clearly that God Himself removed music performance from my life. In my case (which is NOT normative--it is only my case!) God wanted me to see myself as HIS, not as a musician, not as an Adventist--all those safe and admired things that I'd clung to for meaning and a "place" in my world He stripped away from me in order for me to identify myself only in Him. I still don't completely understand why He allowed me all those years to practice and perform and to develop mature skills in my instruments, and then gradually removed them. But it's OK, because the loss of my identity as a musician was really signficant for me. Ironically, as we've moved into our current church, I've actually had several opportunities to play--and to become significantly involved. I've actually refused to become more involved, however, because I'm really too committed to the study and writing God has put before me to take the time to practice, rehearse, and divide my attention with music. Yes, I still cry from the sense of nostalgia and loss, sometimes. Sometimes when I'm editing I play Bach or Mozart or other favorite composers, and the pognant memories of being immersed in music and performing with other musicians is so sweet and sad that I cry. I definitely cry as I watch our older son play with great skill and expression on the church's music team. My heart is still a musician's heart--but I am no longer primarily a musician. And I am grateful. Being God's daughter, being immersed in the work He prepared in advance for me to do (Ephesians 2:10), is so much more rewarding and joyful than even being a musician was. Probably the most important thing that's distilling out of this journey for me is that when I am in Christ, my "job" is to surrender to Him, to hold loosely all that seems to be "mine", to realize that God gives and God takes away, and His name is blessed. I'm beginning to realizes that my contentment and joy are in knowing Him, and I can trust Him to bring into my life the opportunities, the work, the creative outlets, the means of expression that He wants me to have at any given time. What He asks of me may (indeed has!) changed over time, and only He knows the future. He has given me the contentment to be able to worship in church without longing to "do more". Clearly God calls many people to lead and perform music for Him. This calling, though, is not His calling to me at this time in my life. I've had to let it go to Him--and the miracle is that He has given me Himself in that place where music used to feed me. I can trust Him. Even though I still have tears and a sense of having lost something I loved, I have no regret. I would much rather be here, where He has placed me, than in the musical venues I would have designed for myself. I can trust Him, and He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 756 Registered: 7-2004 |
Music has been so central to my life, and without it my life would have felt dessolate. I don't begin to paint myself as a great talent, but I had a pleasant voice and loved singing, either alone, in groups, and especially in choirs. I remember singing in a group choir once that was 200 persons strong and singing a particularly stirring rendition of Battle Hymn of the Republic brought me to tears as we were performing. Another time I recall being in a choir singing Hallelujah Chorus and feeling so uplifted by the whole experience to the point that I hardly felt that my feet were attached to the floor. I don't think that there was performance pride involved in those experiences. I know at the time that they occurred, for myself at least, I was in the midst of an intense worship experience, and the sounds of our mingled voices were a gift offered to God. We do perform for other people to hear, but the most effective performances are the ones that are offered primarily as an incense of sound in worship to God. I have a heart condition now, and one of the sidebars of that is that I no longer have breath control like I used to. Age can steal away every joy, sometimes so slowly you hardly notice that it is happening. I love singing in the shower, in my car, and when I'm alone cleaning my apartment. I would not risk performing in public anymore, but I'm looking forward to mingling my voice with the voices of angels one day. That thought, and the memory of other intensely emotional performances from my past keep me happy in my soul, and I have to offer those memories to Jesus as worship now. Belva | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1187 Registered: 7-2003  |
Lisa, our church still always has some sort of special, it's just not always music. Sometimes it's a skit or other times it's a dance. Can you imagine how the dancers in the congregations have felt all these years they've not been allowed to worship with their creative talent? Some still get their knickers in a twist with dancing in church. I sing on the praise team in our church and know there are some pretty stringent efforts to keep the service from looking like a performance for the congregation as opposed to an act of worship to God. With our church, they try to plan all music, specials, etc. to coordinate with the text we will be studying during the service. Some of the criticisms I've heard of the "willow creek style" is that people on stage are just performing. There were previous ministers in our church who used the same people over and over. Partly because when they started doing the praise team style, they were probably available, but it meant a lot of other, equally talented people, could not participate in those roles. Now we have a rotating schedule, and I personally enjoy only being "on" once a month (even though it's 3 services during that weekend). Every year, we all come together to go through an "ego check" because they really don't want any personality getting in the way of worship. It works well in our location. I can't say I understand the performance aspect, as I'd be content to sing back stage where no one could see me, but that's not how they do it. Do they do any specials? Not knowing the particulars of your situation, perhaps there is not an awareness of your interest? Having praise teams doesn't necessarily mean no specials, at least not in my church. And occasionally, there is a solo part in a worship song that someone "gets" to sing, if they so desire. I've been in some churches where talent was.... um, lacking. And not requiring a special song every week was a welcome relief for the congregation.  If you haven't, take the time to talk to whoever it is that puts the services together and make sure they know you're available, interested, qualified for certain situations. If the situation still leaves you frustrated, pray to see if this is God prompting you to do something different, or grow in a way you're not particularly comfortable with where you are. The hardest thing I had to do when Rachel got older was leave choir. Through all the difficulties I had with her, that was the only outlet I allowed myself. And as she got older, and behavior issues became a bigger issue that she couldn't be in the nursery environment, I had to quit. And I grieved that move. It was taking away my only social activity as well as ministry opportunity. I still don't know what I learned from that time, but trust that it was something I couldn't have learned had I remained. I don't know that any of that will help you, but that's been my experience. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen your experience brought me to tears as I read it. I can so much appreciate what you must have felt even though I'm not a musician but I know of parts of my life where God is doing a work and refocussing me on HIM. Richard PS: I wish I could put into words what I'm feeling right now. THANKS ! ! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 572 Registered: 7-2004 |
All of you must already have figured this out, but Colleen's musical talent is just as astonishing as her writing talent is. Colleen performed ALL the music in our wedding. She had a friend who played the harp and she played the flute. She arranged all the music so very beautifully. By far, the best part of the whole ceremony was the romantic and flowing tones set by her gift (actually, it was probably the ONLY beauty of the whole day...Colleen will probably even agree...but that's another long, long story!! ) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, Your testimony was so touching to me. It showed me how important our identity to Him really is. Nothing else -- not membership in a denomination, our talents, our career, nothing. We belong to Him; not just part of us, but our whole being. Thanks for sharing, your story has definitely blessed me today. I needed to hear that. Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2926 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, in spite of everything, your wedding was lovely--and best of all, look at the miraculous fruit it has borne! Who would have thought, back then in the 80's, that you and yours (not to mention me and mine!) would be where we are today? God is so faithful to do abundantly more than we ask or think! Praising God for giving us a history before we had any idea how significant that foundation would be today... Colleen | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2005 |
Colleen--I'm with everyone else here, for whom music used to be my #1 ministry. Thanks for your testimony and for a window into maybe what's going on with God's plan for my New Covenant life! Suppose the "new song" could in fact be nothing about a song? | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen--I want you to know that what you are doing now is so much appreciated, it is filling a desperate need, and I am sorry that one of you great loves and talents was, should I say sacrificed,thank you for following Gods calling and being a help to so many of us. I wondered as I read your comments, if David had ever wished being being a musician was all the Lord ever asked of him. I am not a musician, just appreciate it and look forward to worshipping God in heaven one day with some form of wonderful, gorgeous music!! | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2004 |
My,my,my. A board full of trumpet players.What is it with us formers? My sister even now suggests that my spiritial wonderings might be a result of brain damage caused by my attempts to play along with Phil Driscoll's records in the mid-seventies. She insists my playing contributed to her current mental status. Still trying to play high, Randy | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 111 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dear Everybody, I was afraid to read FAF yesterday because once I laid my exposed heart out for all to poke at I was terrified I'd get lots of swift kicks in the seat for my attitude. Reading your comments was almost like an initiation for me... a passage that FAF is a safe and Spirit filled place. First of all, Melissa and all, it's a very long story I won't go into, but the church knows I sing. I got on the bad side of the choir director by prayerfully saying "no" to a request that I sing a duet with him (I had just barley joined the choir and his wife also showed HUGE RED FLAG SIGNS that she was beyond jealous that someone was singing with her husband - she also a musician... I can understand, as he tends to be inappropriate with other women! Speaking of warfare ) Anyway, since he's the one who plans ALL music in church, my chances have been cut off completely. The reason I gave him was that I felt I should wait a bit to accept such an honor in respect for other choir members who have been in longer... it was something God asked of me during my prayer time even though I REALLY wanted to do it. There are two very very large churches that offer wonderful opportunities and would love for me to join them in their choir and church, however my husband and I believe God is asking us to stay put in the church we are in for a number of reasons, the main on being our kids as they lost all community when we left Adventism and this smaller church offers the possibility of a community in this urban area of ours. The message the pastor preaches each Sunday is amazing. He clearly understands the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant. I feel a bit stuck as you can see, but have resorted to other outlets right now. Colleen, I could identify with identifying myself as an Adventist and musician. I can also identify with sitting in a service listening to beautiful music and crying with an ache in my heart that goes to my spine. I have to say my ache for music has awakened me from a deep sleep a number of nights. My husband has the same feelings about flying (an airplane, not spider man ), and finds that if he just flies every once in a while, the ache is greatly diminished, so I have taken that approach to music and hope it helps. As for choir and group singing, yes it can be powerful worship and performance... ok, I'm probably contradicting myself, but just as guitar is different from the piano, a choir is a different animal than a solo... a different art form. I guess thatís what I was trying to say. Both can be worship, both can be far from worship. Well, thank you all for discussing this issue. I don't need music to live, and don't live for music, it's just that music is so alive in me with nowhere to escape that it hurts sometimes. It will be ok in time. Lisa | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 382 Registered: 7-2000 |
Psst, Randy, for playing high use a small mouthpiece. Then just lock and blow! Do you know about these two sites: www.trumpetherald.com www.trumpetmaster.com |
