| Author | Message | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am reading a book on the Mountain Meadow Massacure. The story is about a group from Arkansas who were moving out west. They traveled over Utah and the Mormans killed everyone over the age of accountabilty. They called it atonement by blood. This happened on Sept 11 (1857?) not for sure of the year. As I read the story there is a theme that the Mormons thought, and called themselves, Israel and everyone else were Gentiles. I'm not even for sure what my question is at this point, but the fact of wanting to be the chosen ones seems so selfish to me. This is almost the same exclustivity I have seen in Adventism. (not killing by any means, just being the chosen ones) Thought the date was interesting also. V | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2005 |
What about the Branch Davidians (I know what SDA says about it), but... I found these links interesting: http://www.watchman.org/cults/reformer.htm http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk/shepherdsrod | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 132 Registered: 4-2005 |
Violet, (this is un-edited) You may want to check out the book, "One Nation Under Gods - a History of the Mormon Church" by Richard Abanes. It is 465 pages in length with 144 pages of notes. I am 3/4ths through - whitteling away at it as my toleration level provides space. The history is unspeakably full of murder, muggings, rape, adultery, lies, attempts to take over the U.S. Joseph Smith's deeds are documented. He counterfeited his own money to fill his own bank; was jailed numerous times, sought to be the King of America politically. Blatantly disobeyed the laws of the land countless times, had his own Army. Three mormons had been improsoned. Joseph Smith was outraged and gave an explicit command: "Go and kill every devil of them." "Them" referred to Capt. Samuel Bogart, head of a Missouri Militia to defend the Mormons who in Oct, 1838, invaded Daviess County with several hundred men, plundering the town, and livestock, burning it to the ground. They also burned and looted Millport, MO and Grindstone Fork along with torching any non-Mormon private dwelling cabins they came upon. Settlers fled for their lives, some in barefeet. Mormons, drew swords and slashed their way into Capt. Bogart's men. Later they claimed they thought they were attacking vigilantes. Loyal followers of Joseph Smith said they would kill any person, if Joseph Smith would say it was the will of God. Mormon Alexander McRae said, "If Joseph should tell me to kill (President Martin) Van Buren...I would immediately start and do my best to assassinate him (and) let the consequences be as they would." He gave the order, "If any brother should have stolen a horse, or committed any other offence, and is arraigned before a justice of the peace for trial, you must at the risk of your lives, rescue him, and not permit him to be tried by the Gentile law." Joseph Smith set up his own "secret police." "for the purpose of plundering and murdering the enemies of the Saints." They called themselves Danites. Modern Mormons believe that Cain, Abel, Enoch, Methuselah and Noah all lived in Missouri - - yes, Missouri, U.S.A. Also: Adam and Eve fled the Garden of Eden and came to Missouri. The Garden of Eden was in Jackson County. And Mormons believed this stuff. Joseph Smith had numerous arrest warrants, including those for "banking fraud" and "counterfeiting." The book says he justified everything he wanted by claiming the idea/revelation came from God. Smith actually believed his debts along with those of many Mormons could be erased by his printing fake notes. He convinced his followers that his idea for their own bank, was given him by God, and this bank would "become the greatest of all institutions on earth." Many boxes were marked $1,000.00. These boxes were actually filled with sand, lead, old iron, stone and combustibles, but each had a top layer of bright fifty-cent silver coins. Anyone suspicious of the bank's stability was allowed to lift and count the boxes. Smith spread the word that he had $60,000 in hard, coinage to back the paper notes and could lay his hands on $600,000 more if necessary. When in reality he had barely $6,000.00. He distributed $150,000 in counterfeit money. Debts were paid off, property purchased, prosperity reigned - - all on the basis of this phony money; until local businessmen began discovering the money was worthless. This book, with all the negative impressions it gives, still is spell-binding to read. On July 29, 1997 former President Bill Clinton said of the Mormons, "it is the story of a people who know that, with hard work and faith in God, they can accomplish anything." The great-great-grandchild of Brigham Young, Sandra Tanner, wrote the Forward for this book. She began to have questions and in seeking the answers from historical research on her own, she discovered that Brigham young was not the holy prophet of God she thought he was. She said Joseph and Brigham's goal was to set up a political kingdom of God at any cost, even to the point of violence. In closing this, here is a quote from her Great-great grandfather, Brigham Young in 1875, "We shall pull the wool over the eyes of the American people and make them swallow Mormonism, polygamy and all." Nice friendly people. Christian? NOT! Jess | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2005 |
Follow-up: John Taylor who became Mormonism's new president when Brigham Young died in 1880, had 15 wives, but this paled to Young's 55 wives. Joseph Smith at first allegedly had a difficult time accepting plural marriage, until, he said God commanded it of him. He said the Lord sent him an angel carrying adrawn sword with which Joseph would be slain if he did not take another wife. He said he reluctantly obeyed. Ebenezer Robinson recalled that the doctrine ofmultiple wives was talked about privately and that he was secretly invited to participate. Smith's brother initiated him into this elite group. "Hyrum instructed me in Nov or Dec 1845 to make a selection of some young woman and he would seal her to me, and I should take her home, and if she should have an offspring (I was to) give out word that she had a husband, an Elder, who had gone on a foreign mission." During John Taylor's presidency, "polygamy became a hallmark of Mormonism." They believe that Elohim (God) worked his way to God-hood as first a man, visited earth and physically impregnanted Mary by having sexual intercourse with her after making her his wife, even though she already was not only his daughter (i.e., one of his spirit children) but also the betrothed of Joseph. Later, as an adult, Jesus would become a polygamist, just like Elohim. Among his many wives were Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. Mormonism is about becoming a god to billions of worshipful souls through whom one's own godhood is sustained. And intelligent people buy into this! Increcible, eh? Jess | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1182 Registered: 7-2003  |
Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for sharing... Do you think the modern mormon is as enlightened as the modern sda? | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 134 Registered: 4-2005 |
Melissa, That is a great question. The BIG burning questions I have, include: How many Adventists are aware of (meaning, having studied / read / investigated on their own) the evidences against EGW's claimed inspiration? How many Adventists are inwardly disatisfied with the fare given them in sermons, Sabbath school lessons, Prayer Meetings, Review articles, etc. How many long for a deeper spiritual offering? How many have doubts, perhaps do not personally agree or believe with the Investigative Judgment/Sanctuary teaching; and perhaps confusion over the "authentic Gospel" they hear about? Conflicts with, perhaps what they see in Scripture that appears to be saying something clearly simple to believe, and yet does not harmonize with EGW's commentaries on it and what the church officially promotes? Such as an individual assurance of salvation; being able to say "I AM saved!" In short, how enlightened IS the "modern SDA?" I wish I knew what was closer to the truth for that answer. don't we all? As for the Mormons. I have no objective basis for making this statement. However we do have a Mormon who is a member of our family by marriage. I do not believe the average "modern mormon" knows 1/10th of their true history and the foundational beliefs and how they came about. There is a LOT of social interaction, for which they are to be commended. They put most other churches to shame when it comes to helping their members; baby sitting, helping when a mate goes to the hospital; when they move or have material needs.....they are RIGHT THERE with help, muscle, hands, food, money. And they promote all kinds of activities that keeps them together, having fun; camp outs, craft groups, anything, it seems, to get them together for some activity. I have NEVER heard one Mormon I know personally EVER mention anything about loving Jesus or God or Scripture reading, devotionals, prayer or praying, faith, spiritual growth, gratitude to Father for His loving kindnesses to us; nothing from their own heart and testimony that could be identified as being of a personal spiritual nature. Nothing! Ever! Whenever I have mentioned "pray about it," or something about trusting God to do His will in a given situation, prayer even for someone to get well from a sickness.....I have NEVER heard one response in even a "Yes!" or "that's right" nothing. Just silence. This is a pattern I have never seen change! They apparently have NOTHING to say. If you have SOMETHING spiritual within you, wouldn't you at least say SOMETHING? Even "Thanks for praying?" But in the testimonies I've heard them give in their services (weird services from my point of view - and from an average Christian worship service comparison) they are big on thanking God for their prophet, for them being the true church, for having the truth. Almost like hearing ADventist testimonies all over again. Almost identical, except the names are different and Adventists usually include something about thankfulness for the Sabbath. I assume you knew they believe God the Father BECAME a God, and was a man (I have not heard where or how they think the first man/god came from); and that Jesus was created and is the brother of Lucifer. Jesus is NOT equal to the Father, is NOT the Word, one with God, and is God. They believe in salvation by works. They do end their prayers with "in the name of Jesus Christ," but what kind of Christ? A brother of Satan? No thank you! As false as Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs are, I class Mormonism as the height of delusionary lies and totally false beliefs. They will read the King James Version - - preferring only to use this version; but preferring to use the KJV with Joseph Smith's interpretations throughout. So when you see them with what looks like a KJV, .... you must check it out to be sure it is an Oxford edition. Very sneaky on their part. Totally, and tragically sad. I think the modern SDA and Mormon are pretty much neck and neck when it comes to believing or being "enlightened" on what they have been taught! Not what they have studied on their own. Good question Maybe others more qualified can give more insight into your question. Soli Deo Gloria, Jess | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1183 Registered: 7-2003 |
I had a very good mormon friend during the summers in high school. She was a life guard and I worked in the snack shop. By the time she got married, I was invited to the wedding. My other Christian friend and I always lamented this beautiful young woman because she lived such a "pure" lifestyle, yet didn't know Christ. She didn't "do" any of the major sins, remained pure until marriage, didn't smoke, cuss, drink, honest, integrity, always had a smile on her face. Who didn't want to be like that? I was considering going to college where she went, so she invited me down for a weekend. That included a trip to the mormon church where they sang at least one song about Joseph Smith. I knew I'd not heard them before, but could hardly believe my eyes when I saw his name in the text. I was not near as in tune then about doctrinal differences because now I would be taking notes like crazy. We lost touch through the years, but I always wondered about whether she ever met the true Christ, not the jesus her religion has created. Her life seemed so perfect, it was hard to see how she would even recognize her need for Christ. Besides the Osmonds, the only other mormons I've ever really heard of was the Elizabeth Smart family. Their generosity to invite homeless people to do work on their home to get some money for food or whatever I thought quite admirable. Regardless of the tragedy that ensued with Elizabeth, that seemed far more Christlike than a lot of "real" Christian actions I've seen. But none of that would be recognizable to the violent, domineering group from their history you mention, don't you think? That's quite a make over ... and you have to wonder if the average mormon is aware of the history? Or is ignorance bliss? I know I've told B a thing or two he didn't know about SDA history, and though he initially used to object saying such things impossible, he eventually just started defending everything I said because he found so much of it to be true when he investigated for himself. At all costs, support the church. Very interesting info.... Thanks again | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2005 |
I didn't hear anything bad about Ellen White until recently, after deciding I was going to leave the church. I mean, I read bad things about her, but I thought it was just the beast or something like that bashing her. At most, she might have had a mental illness. Not that I really ever cared to investigate, not until after I decided to leave the church. Before that, I was afraid of anyone that might say anything bad about adventists. In fact, I told my husband sometimes not to tell people I was adventist since I knew there were some people out there that didn't like adventists, you like the beast or something. | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2004 |
Its intresting that you should talk about Mormons never mentioning Christ. I have never known any Mormons until recently I invited a karate instructor to teach some self defense to my class who I found out is Mormon. He actually talked today with the class about how Jesus was his example when it came to acting peaceful and loving his enemy. Of course I have no idea what his concept of who Jesus is.....I would have to assume that he believes like JWD pointed out, but never the less he did talk about Him....... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2891 Registered: 12-2003  |
Last Friday a couple of Mormon missionaries came to the door. It had been years since any had ventured through our gates--I guess the lack of outdoor dogs made it seem safe. After recoiling when Rocky barked at them as I opened the door, the lead missionary held up a Book of Mormon and asked me if I'd ever heard of it. Yes. Had I ever had a chance to read any of it and pray about it? Yes. What did I think? Well, I was praying I'd say the right things to them, and nothing remarkable came to my mind. I looked him straight in the eye, smiling, and said, "I'm a Christian, and I know Jesus!" Oh, good, he said, "We know that knowing Jesus is the only way to get back to heaven." [Back to heaven?!] When it was clear I had no questions, they said good-bye and left. I believe that recent Mormon evangelistic techniques include making mention of Jesus and trying to establish common ground with people acqquainted with Christianity. About a year ago I read a book entitled (I think!) "The Mormon Missionaries", and it was written by a former Mormon who had herself gone on a mission. She discussed their establishing warmth and friendship first--the church actually has people appointed to be hospitable--and when people are finally invited over to have studies, they enter the house to the smell of fresh baked bread, cookies, etc. Part of the plan is to send home with the potential convert a loaf of fresh bread after the study, etc. (Reminds me of Ellen saying every housewife should know how to bake a good loaf of bread, that there was "gospel" in a good loaf of bread. [my paraphrase...]) Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 378 Registered: 7-2000 |
I know a guy that ties up a 150 lb. Rottweiler in front of his door on Saturdays and Sundays. He's never been bothered by the Mormons or the JW's! Colleen---you really need a bit bigger dog! If you go to the official Mormon website, what is said there and the terms used are very Christian sounding. You wouldn't have any idea that what is said and what is meant are two different things. Go take a look! www.lds.org Bill.... | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 356 Registered: 1-2003  |
Bill what works even better than a big dog, which I have, is to have a Jewish person meet them at the door.  I think the word is out about our house. For those that don't know my wife is Jewish and she has little patience for certain door to door people. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2065 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a neighbor that several years ago had two Mormon missionaries come by. He told them to give him their # and he'd call to set up an apointment to have trhem come back. Then several days later the JW's came by. He told them the same thing. Then he set it up so the Mormons and the JW's showed up at his place at the exact same time. He was just cracking up. He thought he was so funny. He introduced each group to the other, told them there was a nice park a block down the street where they could all go and discuss religion, that he knew they all liked talking about that stuff but he didn't so don't bother him anymore but they need to bother people who want to talk about that sort of stuff. Then he told them he was going back in to finish watching the football game and he closed the door and left the JW's and the Mormons out there togethetr. They all got disguested and left. He told me recently none of them have ever came back. I just think it's too funny. Clever, too. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 325 Registered: 7-2004  |
This is the LDS's website definition of grace: http://scriptures.lds.org/gsg/grace At least they're very clear on what they teach. Even in the "Scriptures" area, they clearly list more than the Bible as Scriptures. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 989 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven, that quote above sounds eerily like SDAs and Roman Catholics. I think there is a common heretical thread to all these groups, and that is the religion of man, or the beast of Revelation, the man's number 666. I believe this represents a salvation by works system which characterizes all these groups. These are all counterfeits of true Biblical Christianity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2898 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Stan. "Works" is the hallmark of all false religion, no matter how subtle. BTW, Advent Rest has a traveling OT tabernacle on display in Loma Linda--tours every 15 minutes. Since our Trinity women's Bible study is doing Hebrews this year, several women have wondered if they should visit the sanctuary. I gather that Elizabeth announced today that while it might be interesting for historical purposes, it has absolsutely nothing to do with now. It was merely a shadow. I've decided that I have to take the tour and hear what they say. The website calls it an evangelistic outreach that people might attend where they wouldn't attend a meeting. Oh, they're calling this traveling show "Messiah's Mansion". That name actually offends me. Messiah's mansion has nothing to do with that tabernacle. He lives in His body the church now. Colleen | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen, I agree, the name is offensive. Not nearly as offensive, to me, as calling plagiarized writing "Spirit of Prophecy". DT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2903 Registered: 12-2003 |
Agreed! Richard and I actually went and took the "Messiah's Mansion" tour yesterday. Since there is such an interest in it at church because of our women's Hebrews study, I decided that I had to hear what they said. The tour took an hour and 15 minutes. The show is being put on my Oklahoma Academy, a self-supporting school with a total of about 43 students grades 9-12. The sophomore, junior, and senior classes each go on a 10-14 day tour with the "sanctuary" for a "mission trip". We had junior class guides. Oklahoma Academy got the whole sanctuary set from 3ABN where it was being stored, unused, after Ted Tessner, the creator of it, gave it to 3ABN when he retired from touring with it. SDA theology is woven seamlessly into the explanation of the temple service. Some of it was subtle and so fast that a Christian who didn't know what was happening would not notice the problems and could think tthe insights were "valid". For example, one thing that really bothered me was the reference to the 12 loaves of showbread. They represented the 12 tribes, and, our guide told us, the Bible tells us Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father, so the two stacks of bread represented the Father and Jesus. (Huh?) That troubled me partly because this two-part "symbol" didn't include the Holy Spirit. Further, she said, the bread represented the Word of God which feeds us spiritually. (I understand Jesus to be the Bread of Life.) The 7-branched candlestick with its flames represent the presence of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks in their proximity to the bread symbolizing the word of God represents to us that we need to be diligent in our devotional lives, reading the Bible, so we will be filled with the Holy Spirit and have lives on fire for God. And so on. Of course, as we sat at the Most Holy chamber, the guide explained that the priests drew lots between two black goats. One was the sacrifice. The other represented Satan and figuratively received the sins and was sent to the wilderness to die. Sigh. I pray that God will protect people's hearts and minds. Colleen | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 48 Registered: 9-2005 |
i am well aware of mormon and jw errors in doctrine--but i think that misses the point...it was interesting to tour mormon square and see the monument of the seagulls--apparently in the early years of settling salt lake city, the entire area was plagued with grasshoppers that were threatening all of the fragile ecosystem-including the settlers crops. they prayed and suddenly, from nowhere, came large flocks of seagulls that ate up the grasshoppers.....saving the crop. Why did God save such a miserably misguided group of criminals when they prayed? i think the point is that God's love is so big and He desires a relationship with us so badly, that He takes us where we are--even if we are deceived, and consents to be our God and to lead us to Truth..from where we are--Rom 5:8.. Jesus in his debut sermon in Matt 5 brings up the point that His Father sends the rain on evil and the good--dispelling the Jewish myth that all good comes to us because we are "worthy" and that all evil comes to us because we are bad....I am so glad that God does not have to wait until my theology or my life measures up to a standard before He consents to be my God and to grant me the pleasure and blessing of being in His family!! Thank you Jesus that you love me as I am, a poor miserable, misguided and confused creature... | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 484 Registered: 4-2000  |
Interestingly, both Adventists and Mormons point out that their "prophets" had a limited formal education on the third-grade level. Both groups like to cite this fact to indicate that their particular "prophet" could not have accomplished what he or she did without heaven's divine assistance and bestowal of a special gift. Dennis Fischer |
