| Author | Message | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 98 Registered: 1-2005  |
I'm feeling brave tonight - home all alone with time on my hands - and in the mood to post a note or two to cyberspace....... From several threads posted here over time, I have noticed that there are some of us who struggle with depression at times. As the long days of winter head our way here in the north - I struggle with it myself - sunshine literally floods my soul and without it I find myself fighting a funk. I just posted a quote by Dr. Peck - and want to do one more - it caught my eye because of it's reference to depression. "Those who fully experience depression, doubt, confusion and despair may be infinitely more healthy than those who are generally certain, complacent, and self-satisfied. The denial of suffering is, in fact, a better definition of illness than its acceptance." I find this statement intriguing and somewhat hopeful. As I have said before, I try to just go with the flow with my melancholy. But I have puzzled over it. I have often thought that those who have a tendancy to depression also have a willingness to look outside the box at things - to question and doubt - to be open to new ideas. And it makes me wonder if certain personalities are more willing to question the tried and true ways things have always been done - than other people are? AND if that is so - how can those who have a propensity for questioning one's beliefs - and a willingness to explore new spiritual possiblities - judge others who's personality keeps them happy and content in a nice safe "box"? Just some curious thoughts. Could be I'm just crazy tho!  | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 342 Registered: 8-2004  |
Lindylou, that book by Scott Peck is one that is on my list of books to get soon and read. The idea that depression can be a good thing, or at least a 'more healthy' than some of the other options reminds me of a webpage a friend of mine sent me the link to the other day, called Annie's "Necessary Depression" page: http://www.annieshomepage.com/depression.html | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2005 |
I think depression is something that might just be a double edged sword. We all feel "down" when bad things happen, when the weather is gloomy and when the days get short--there are things we can do like play music we like,turn on more lights, talk to friends, do something for someone else, count our blessings and so forth. There are other depressions that might require medication to help us out of it. I've been reading an interesting book "Mapping the Mind" by Rita Carter 1998 U of Calif. Press I bought it on Amazon but went to their used section, and got a new book for 1/2 price, the jacket was a little faded, book is fine. So when the brain chemistry needs a little help I wonder sometimes if Christians think they must rely on prayer, or when it might be appropriate to accept medical help. I'm afraid some people might wait too long, or feel guilty that they don't have enough faith. Has anyone else wondered about this? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 344 Registered: 8-2004 |
I definitely have wondered about that! And I've witnessed Christians agonize over whether to 'get help' or whether they should just trust harder. I've seen much needless suffering, and some useless treatment. I personally thing there are several different things often collectively labelled as or contributing to depression: Situational sorrow Grief over loss Anger turned inward Chemical imbalance Discouragement Hopelessness Fear It seems to me that the the health or unhealth of a particular depression must be carefully considered, that we should avail ourselves of whatever help we need in each situation, and that we recognise that what is right in one case may not be in another. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2906 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lindylou--I've pondered many times over the years that some people live much more level lives--apparently more free of suffering--than others. I've dealt more with anxiety than depression over the years--although I think they're probably close cousins ... I used to wonder--sometimes I still do--if certain temperament types tend to delve more than others into one's own internal details and reactions more than others. It does seem as if certain temperaments seem to be more analytical and intuitive, etc. What has seemed more and more clear to me is that some people, for whatever reason, seem to have more of a need for meaning and truth than others. I've wondered if this tendency is specifically a gift of grace from God or just temperament... What seems clear to me, though, is that some people are more comfortable rationalizing their cognitive dissonance than others. I'm developing a theory, the longer I live, that the difference between people who must "get to the bottom of things" and those who don't is not so much their tendency to depression or anxiety as it is their willingness to know the truth about themselves. I have a relative who grew up SDA and left the church about 25 years ago. This person is married to someone who grew up without any church experience and has become deeply involved with martial arts and eastern secret knowledge and healing power. They have many versions of Buddha statues in parts of the house--not because they're Buddhist, but --well, just because. This particular couple are now both members of a liberal mainstream Christian church that doesn't hold to Scriptural inerrancy. They certainly don't believe babies are born "sinful" and under a curse of death. Etc. My relative has spent a great deal of effort over the years trying to make Christianity reconcile with Eastern and native American religions. While a self-proclaimed Christian, still there's the belief that probably all religions get you to the same place if you're sincere. It's become harder and harder to have open discussions with this person because s/he doesn't see eye to eye with me at all about the Bible, about the role of Jesus in all humanity's salvation, etc. and further, doesn't want to hear about it anymore from me and even refused a free subscription to Proclamation. (Imagine that!) The bottom line difference between us, I believe, is our understanding of truth. My loved one believes that each person has their own reality that is as valid as the next person's unique understanding of reality. In other words, there's no way to know what is objectively true, and therefore, we have no reason to expect others to change or see things as we think they should. Now, in matters of taste and preference, I agree. However, I do believe in absolute Truth, but such a belief is only possible if one believes the Bible to be God's personal revelation of truth to us. Hebrews 4:10 tells us the Bible is a living thing that cuts deeply into our souls and reveals the truth about us to ourselves. If one rationalizes away the teaching of the Bible, though, there's no source of truth by which to evaluate life. When I look at this loved one of mine, I am pretty sure that what underlies the deep commitment to relativism is a resistance to owning responsibility for a number of things in life. One of the most obvious, I believe, is the attempt to rationalize Christianity with Eastern thought. When a person refuses to allow the Bible to be one's ground of truth, they can accept whatever "works for them". I really believe that a person's willingness to know the truth about him/herself is what underlies their willingness to look at the problems before them, whether those problems are in their church, their marriage, their family, their own relationship with Jesus, etc. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 358 Registered: 7-2004  |
Interesting thread. I've always been suspicious of people who claim that they are happy all of the time. And I think that sometimes as a society we have labelled it a pathology if we are not. And then provide the self-help book or pill to "fix" that pathology. Please don't misunderstand me, if you have depression that is having a sustained impact on your ability to function in life I think that you should seek professional help. But I am concerned that we so narrowly define what is "normal" and label all experience outside of that as a pathology that we discount the fullness of human experience and the breadth of individuality. A little "depression" can be a good thing. The accompanying introspection can lead to personal and Spiritual growth. Much creativity in literature, art and music is spawned from just such a state. | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 100 Registered: 1-2005 |
Good points all! In a way, Colleen, what you said does support this statement: "The denial of suffering is, in fact, a better definition of illness than its acceptance." Invariably a person's quest to know the truth about themself is a painful process - and so many people just don't want to go there. Do you remember the old movie "Four Seasons" with Alan Alda? It's about a group of friends going through the seasons of their life. Alda's character is always pschoanalyzing everyone. They put up with it - to humor him - but at the end of the movie - they turn on him and basically tell him that they resent his analyzing and pushing to delve into why they do the things they do. I've thought of that often because I have gotten into trouble myself - trying to push my loved ones into examing themselves when they don't want to. I have had to learn to back off and realize that not everyone is comfortable with that kind of digging. Many people have erected thick walls that hold back a flood of emotion - and breaking down that wall would just be too much to deal with. Or they have denied having any feelings for so long that they seem to have lost feeling sensativity. There are people in my life that I would label "shallow" because they are content to stay in the boat and not create any waves. I used to be resentful and want to push them out of the boat. But I have had to ask myself - if they are happy why should I rock their boat? Just because I am questioning and struggling with my emotions and wanting to create a tidal wave - doesn't mean they should be required to do the same. That is one reason I do not try to convince other SDA's the "error of their ways." It must be God doing the convicting and pinching - I am happy to answer any questions and listen to concerns - but the Holy Spirit has to be the instigator of the searching of one's heart. I do drop a few teasers now and then - but as soon as I see that "closed look" come over their eyes - I back off real quick. And Ric_b - I agree with you about being suspicious of people who are happy all the time! More power to them! But I just know they are hiding something somewhere deep down! However........ I am trying to step back and leave them in their delusion - Why on earth would I wish my mental chaos on anyone who claims to be happy and content? It can sometimes be a curse to want to always dig deeper and ask questions - but I thank God that He made me this way! I wonder if one really appreciates the sun if they have never sat in darkness? | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 357 Registered: 1-2003  |
Lindylou, "That is one reason I do not try to convince other SDA's the "error of their ways." It must be God doing the convicting and pinching" You said a great truth, God's ways are not our ways and God is in control. I continually ask God to make me sensitive to His Spirit that I might speak His words to those I meet and not mine. Sometimes I'm "directed" to just shut up and other times to say things which in the "natural" way of saying things I never would. As long as I quietly wait and listen I've never been disappointed. If I get ahead of God I'm prone to stick my "foot in my mouth" and make a mess of things. In Christ, Richard. rtruitt@mac.com PS: I've been reminded of this numerous times this weekend as I'm up visiting my parents and family members. Right now I'm getting packed for the 6 hour drive back to S. CA and home. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2907 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lindylou, I agree. I have just had to cease talking about certain issues--often religion and spiritual issues--with some people. I've had to give up my own feeling of NEDDING to get them to see reality! (Obviously, I don't see all of reality, either...) But it has helped me to let things go when I have been able to realize that some people truly do not want to KNOW. I believe that persisting in not wanting to know has many consequences, but I can't stop another from refusing to examine. Hope you have a safe trip, Richard... Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1003 Registered: 3-2005 |
Every true Christian I think has bouts of depression. I sure have had my share of it. This may even be a sign that our faith is genuine, as Satan would be interested in causing us to doubt and lose our joy. The most helpful resource that has gotten me through the valley of depression has been the Psalms. David fought a lot of depression. I have found that God uses this book to treat depression much more effectively than any other worldly source of psychology. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2005 |
It is easy to become depressed when you look at others and what they have and what you have missed. Somebody always has something you wish you had and if you think too much that way, you will become depressed. I am depressed knowing that Adventism has had such a grip on me for 18 years. I cried when I came home from church today, not because it was a bad experience, it was great, I just don't feel like I can relate, and my husband is so abrasive often, it is difficult for me to feel good. But after I came home and read some of the posts in this forum, it made me not feel so bad, or alone. But there are times when I just feel like giving up. I received a note from the Pastor after sending my request to be removed as a member of the SDA church. He wrote back quite a bit more than I wrote and my husband was upset by it, because he just said too much that was unnecessary. When I wrote about not believing in the IJ, he wrote that he didn't believe that it would have any bearing on the salvation of the saints (which I had to translate to my husband as those who keep the commandments) and concluded in his letter that "We'll see who is right!". In Christ... He said that the board was meeting on the 10th of November, so I can expect another note from the church. I'm personally so discusted by Adventism right now. But being openly harsh is very difficult because of how deeply it is implanted in us and knowing that there are many adventists that are very sensitive, loving and caring , yet brainwashed. I get depressed sometimes also because I grew up in an ex-catholic, anti-religion home and had a terrible childhood. I then learned about Christ in the the bible and became Adventist. I later thought I lost Christ because of the church doctrine and what people told me. I am now looking to the true Christ through Grace and will be baptized again next week at age 40! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2002 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lynne, I was rebaptized June 2004 at age 63! It was one of the happiest days of my life. Age does not matter when we come to know Jesus Christ. What matters is that we come to know Him. God does redeem the past and with me, he had 63 years to redeem. It is good that time is not important to God. God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2909 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lynne, Diana makes such a good observation that God does redeem the past. He wastes nothing that happens to us, and He does redeem everything we submit to Him. That knowledge has comforted me many times. Leaving Adventism involves grief. This experience is completely normal. It does get better with time, and Jesus really does redeem the years of deception with great spiritual insight and understanding as we grow in Him. I actually am thankful--now--for having been Adventist. Without the bondage to the law, to another gospel, to a false prophet--however unconsciously--I would not now be able to understand so clearly the reality and miracle of the New Covenant. God will walk with you through this anger and disillusionment, Lynne--and He will bring you out on the other side into the reality of His love and joy in ways that are deeper than if you had not walked this path of grief. Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thank you Lindylou, for starting this thread. I too, have dealt with anxiety and depression off and on for years. I was on medication 11 years ago that helped me tremendously. I have been going through another episode this summer with anxiety being the main problem. (One of the problems that this causes is my inability to articulate my thoughts in writing.) I am doing better. Stan, Psalms is also the book I go to for encouragement. The Holy Spirit brought this text to my mind during a worship service several weeks ago after a partiularly rough week. "Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God." Ps. 43:5 I am beginning to realize that truly "...all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28 When I began to study the soverignty of God and realize that what happened in the past has brought me to where I am now, I am not as resentful and not apt to hold on to the bitterness towards adventism. I still have my moments, but I need to remember to give them to the Lord. "Walk by Faith" by Jeremy Camp Would I believe you when you would say Your hand will guide my every way Will I receive the words You say Every moment of every day Well I will walk by faith Even when I cannot see it Well because this broken road Prepares Your will for me Help me to win my endless fears You've been so faithful for all my years With the one breath You make me Your grace covers all I do yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah, ya Well I'm broken- but I still see Your face Well You've spoken- pouring Your words of grace Well hallelujah, hallelu (I will walk by faith) Well hallelujah, hallelu (I will walk by faith) I will walk, I will walk, I will walk by faith I will, I will, I will walk by faith By the way, thank you Colleen, Stan, Chris, and others for recommending some wonderful books over the years. The Case for Faith The Case for Jesus Knowing God - JI Packer Systematic Theology - Wayne Grudem (I have just started this one) Leigh | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2003 |
Lindylou, what is the name of the book by Scott Peck that you quoted from? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1048 Registered: 7-2003  |
Interesting discussion. The last sermon I preached was on Elijah's journey into the wilderness after God's victory on Mount Carmel. Elijah was so depressed that he asked God to kill him. I like to preach exegetially line by line. As I was doing the work of going through each line of I Kings 19:1-18 it became very evident to me that Elijah made a number of errors that contributed to his depression. It also became apparent to me that God corrected these errors and in God's correction we have a Biblical, God-focused model for dealing with the depression that is so inevitable. No, I am not a self-help preacher, but there is a reason that this story of deep depression is included in our Bible. Ultimately, it displays God's absolute sovereignty even in the midst of depression and adversity. This resonates powerfully with me because I had suffered my whole life from severe, even suicidal depression. But praise be to God, He has cured me. This is not saying that I never get down or have low moments like everyone else. I do. However, the deep darkness that used to engulf me has been gone for several years now. It was one of many things that God healed in me as he led me to Himself and away from everything I had known. I praise Him for this journey! Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1186 Registered: 7-2003  |
I don't know that I fight depression as a clinical term, but I sure fight regret. The words I just hate to hear myself thinking are "if only" or "I wish"... Through the process of trying to get rid of the regret, I've become more of a realist and more pragmatic, where I used to be a dreamer. That is not always easy to live with either because there are a lot of things that are not practical in the Christian faith by the world's standards of logic. But as Romans so simply says, one only need look to creation to know God exists, and no matter how many doubts arise about the "logic" and reality of a God who has done some of the things that seem so ridiculous when looked at purely from a "scholarly" POV (does anyone think animal sacrifices a bit too gory to make sense of besides me??), I am absolutely convinced God is. And it would take more faith to leave the things I've learned through the years, than to deal with the melancholy doubts that creep in from time to time. "I wish" that knowledge meant that I didn't try to convince people I'm right about certain things or that things are as easy as my "logic" thinks it should be, because it doesn't and isn't, but it IS a perpetual growth opportunity for me and a goal I shoot for. Inside this body, there is the person I am, the person I'd like to be and the person God is making me. Depending how far apart those three are, the pain varies accordingly to mesh them into one that truly reflects what God wants through me. I don't think any of that is easy no matter who you are. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 107 Registered: 3-2005 |
Depression... if I'm talking about my own personal experience it's a terrible thing... if I'm thinking of it theoretically, it's a great thing, even an important thing. The way I see it, most of us who suffer from depression (yep, as a teen I was a crazy suicidally depressed kid) have had lots of pain and lots of reasons to be angry, but are not functional enough to get angry at the things that we should really be angry at, rather internalize our pain instead, because it's "safer" to be depressed than angry at others. Anger and depression are buddies on the same coin, each looking out at the world at the opposite side as they share the coin none the less. I now see depression as a red flag that there is some anger in me I need to have a good look at. Jumping off the cliff from Adventism required me to stop being the "nice and pleasant personî I'd needed to be for so long. At this point there's been pain, there's been sadness, there has been HUGE LOSS (I still don't have an outlet for music... I'm so aching for it I'm going to try out for a Jazz band in the area when Iíd really so much rather sing for God but can't break into the pain of the church music scene at my church). I miss belonging. I hate having others look at me like a new Christian and having to start over to "prove myself", have the "old timers" at church raise an eyebrow at me when I get involved "too soon" etc... But Depressed NO. Because it's ME AND GOD AGAINST THE WORLD. I hate the irritation of dealing with snitty people who have no ability to connect. I hate having to introduce myself to people just to find a way to belong. But I'm not depressed because I'm on the winning team. Itís all about stratagee now. Clinical depression, yes I believe in it. I got pretty close last year as just after we left the church I also had a Miscarriage (my 4th). I was sad but also chemically depressed. I have done meds. They can be very helpful. I also use the drug of sweat!! Running, sweating, biking, moving my body is a wonderful mental medicine for me. It's amazing, many of us hide our depression from others because we think we're the only one. Nope, not the case obviously. God is Faithful. Lisa | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1005 Registered: 3-2005 |
Leigh, Thank you very much for all of the songs you have posted in the past and for that Jeremy Camp song. There is something about great praise songs and hymns--their words so often are uplifting, and that song lifted my spirit tonight. Stan | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2005 |
If I shared it all, some of you, no doubt, would not believe it. I feel the Spirit does not wish me to open that can of worms, for after praying much over the past half hour, after reading these posts, I do not feel free to say what my heart wants to say. However, I will say I KNOW Depression. Not "about" depression, but I KNOW Depression. I praise God continually for destroying that monster. However my nature is melancholic, so in that way I also identify with many who posted their experiences. Thoughts produce emotions. Thoughts are things. They produce the feelings we have. Fighting low mood days, unexplained "funk" days, I have found wastes time and energy. Focusing upon the WORD and Jesus and our Father is naturally always a continual MUST, every day, as often as possible as we attempt to practice His Presence. Then I admit to myself, "I'm having a low day." Alright, I'll accept it, and not look for a happy mood, because I'm not going to find one today. Focus on something; reading, exercise, gardening, jig-saw puzzle, building a model, cleaning house, whatever. The more my mind focuses on "something" - since the mind can only think one thought at a time - that means I'm not thinking of regrets, sorrows, sadnesses, anger, or trying to analyze WHY I'm in a funk. Often, following a high day, holiday, happy event or achievement, what follows is a corresponding "low." Expect it. It is often the pattern. God dwells in the darkness and gloom and fog of confusion as much as He does the light upon the mountain top. We can NEVER get away from His Presence. Ps. 139. And Colleen, the "personal" message of Col 2:17 to me is always, "THE reality, is found in Christ." The REAL is found in Christ. He IS true and the only Real-ity. Our "All and Who is in all." Col 3:11. JWD | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2005 |
Leigh, Sorry for the delay in answering your question - I've not been online in a few days. The book I was quoting from is Dr. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie". One day when my daughter noticed me in a funk -she posted that text you quoted: Ps.43:5 on my bathroom mirror. "Out of the mouth of babes.." It is interesting to see how each of you deal with your depression, funky feelings and melancholy. The common element in every comment is "hope". A relationship with Christ gives each of something to which we can look outside of ourselves and know that despite how we "feel" in any given moment, we have a promise of something better to come. And like JWD restated - NOTHING can separate us from God's love! Thank goodness! | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2003 |
thanks, Lindylou! |
