| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |     |
InSearchOf--praise God that your wife is studying and understanding along with you. That is a gift of God's grace.
I understand your feelings of aloneness. The place you are right now is very painful and sad. Jesus is walking this road with you, though--and He will keep your heart fixed on truth and on Him. Even though your heart breaks and you may cry when no one's looking, you will also feel deep certainty and comfort that is His reassurance to you. He is worthy--and He is worth the suffering.
Colleen |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 358
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 10:18 pm: | |
JavaGirl,
You said, "Now I can barely contain my worship, and maybe I shouldnít!"
AMEN, allow yourself to express in anyway you feel willing as you express your worship and adoration. Who knows you might raise your hands is adoration or find yourself on your knees in prayer as you worship at church. I usually just close my eyes and it's only me and Him alone together in worship even if I'm in a group or hundreds. 
I too have "tons" of questions and doubts but I'm determined to just rest in Him and allow Him to guide and lead in my life. I am confident that He will lead we in this exploration and journey into an entirely new relationship with Him. I need only remain open to His leading and not get in the way. It is so easy for me to have my agenda and KNOW what is best. I then usually get "hurt" when I'm not in His "presence".
In Christ,
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
PS: just got back not long ago from my parents and WOW I'm tired of driving.
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Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 258
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:43 am: | |
Grace,
Welcome to the forum! I donít have access to the internet over the weekend, but reading your post this morning reminds me so much of where I was almost 2 years ago. I was the ìgood Adventistî (wow, that sounds like an oxymoron now), who grew up in the Midwest and is now in MI.
But now, even despite worried family and friends who donít let an opportunity go by without putting their plug in for the denomination, and residing in Adventist town, USA (Berrien Springs)Ömy life is so very different. I have peace. True peace like never before in my life. Iím still studying things I thought I knew, but mostly just for fun and to know my Savior better.
I know that gut feeling of fear that ìmaybe theyíre rightî. But from experience, I can attest that those thoughts are not of God. Hang onto those moments where He speaks to your soul. And no matter what else youíre studying or reading ñ donít let a day go by without spending time in the Bible. Read the Gospels, Galatians, Hebrews, RomansÖanything. No matter what is thrown at you regarding end times, the 10 commandments, the Sabbath, state of the dead, judgment, the remnant church, mark of the beastÖall the answers are wrapped up in Jesus. He says, ìcome unto me all you who are wear and heavy laden,Öand I will give you rest.î
John 1:17
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
John 8:31,32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, " If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
He will never abandon you. He will never let anything harm you that isnít in His plan. He has provided a SURE sacrifice, He is a Sure High Priest, He is ultimate rest, peace and happiness. He is salvation.
Lord Jesus, I pray right now for Grace. That you will continue the marvelous work you started in her. Protect her heart from the pain and fears of leaving all that she knows. Fill the voids and dark with only YouÖand lead her into the glorious light of the Gospel. Amen. |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 105
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 8:40 am: | |
Dear Grace,
What a gift, for you to share the truth of your soul to us though we have never met. I can say that what you wrote was just last year all too real for my family and me. It seems like it's been 100 years in so many ways because of all the changes we've seen in that time. It has gotten so much better. I no longer question the truth of the decision because too many times when I've gotten on my face to God and told Him I was afraid that what I had been studying really wasn't there, that it seemed to me that I'd get a "phone call" from God putting me right at a text that dealt with the topic I was struggling through. Ok, for those of you freaked out by what I just said, I didn't get an actual phone call... merely opened my eyes to the text in front of me - many times in some obscure place in the Bible, and there it was again... the 10 commandments were given to Whom, for What Purpose, Until When, or verses on how God feels about prophets who use others words and say "thus sayeth the Lord" on and on, one doctrine after another, He taught me through His word. For months I sent letters to the "high ups" in Adventism, friends of mine from my years as a student in the theology department, asking questions about the verses I'd been reading in the Bible, hoping they'd help me have a reason to stay inside the church. Double answers, they just kept coming. Yes we believe in this and that and also in this other thing, and how they can be in agreement even though they are totally opposing views. I read and studied and prayed and finally realized that I can trust my soul to no belief or church or someone other than JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, and He through His Holy Spirit was asking me to make a decision. The decision was clear. Follow what He'd showed me or follow what was most comfortable. In the end, the scales off my eyes are so removed that I can hardly imagine questioning the truth of the gospel. Probably the main Bible reading that finalized things for me was reading over and over entire books of the New Testament, and large portions of the Old Testament, especially the Law books and the prophets, all entire books. I clearly understand that THE NEW COVENANT IS THE GOOD NEWS - THE GOSPEL. Take your time, it's all so shocking to the system, but you are on a track to life in Christ and freedom from the lie of having ANYTHING to contribute toward your salvation, and moving toward the truth of God's Holy Spirit changing you from the inside out.
Lisa
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Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 749
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
For months now I have been involved in an ongoing discussion that began with the question "Why do you remain an Adventist?" It can be found on the spectrum site, and the real meat of the discussion starts here on page 2 with Spozzie's post: http://www.spectrummagazine.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=41&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=545c6720bb90c29c049c3fbd8ed45abf
One of the other "Former Adventists" who posts there is named Postmodern and that particular individual has often come across as being above religion now, having found that Adventism was built on shifting sand. I recommend, however, that you read the last post made by Postmodern. Some of the bitterness has lost its bite and he/she makes some good points.
I'm so grateful that this site (FAF) is available for Adventists who have begun to question the foundations of their denomination. The love and care, and the willingness to dig into the scriptures in search of the Heart of Christ is so clear here. I pray that all doubting Adventists will somehow find their way here because there doesn't seem to be any topic that we are unwilling to explore in the full light of the Gospel. A hearty "thank you" to all who participate here for the studies, quotes, prayers, and love that you are giving. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 11:51 am: | |
Belva, I thought this statement from Ageis was quite interesting:
quote:Christ NEVER came to establish a new religion. He was a Jew from birth to death, and therefore he was a righteous Jew as He obeyed all their rules. That is why SDAs recommend that observing the Jewish Sabbath should be continued because Jesus observed it, overlooking the other Jewish mandatory rules such as circumcision and temple worship.
There are so many problems here one barely knows where to begin. In his/her first breath Ageis states that Jesus followed all the Jewish rules. He seems to suggest that followers of Jesus should be observant Jews as He was and that Jesus would be upset with the suggestion that Christian practice should be any different from Jewish practice. To suggest that Jesus didn't establish anything new is just plain wrong even by SDA standards. Does this person really think there is no difference between Judaism and Christianity or that Jesus did not intend for there to be any differences?
In his/her next breath Ageis seems to contradict himself/herself by saying that Jesus kept the Jewish Sabbath but overlooked other Jewish laws such as circumcision and temple worship. Once again, this is just flat-out wrong. So obviously wrong I'm a bit embarrassed for the person who posted this. In fact, Jesus was circumcised, worshipped in the temple, paid the temple tax, kept Passover, kept the Feast of Booths, kept all the annual, monthly and weekly Jewish Sabbaths, and all other requirements of the Mosaic Law.
It seems to be me that if the pre-cross Law Jesus was born under is to be our primary reference for Christian practice , rather than His didactic teaching and the post-cross teaching of His apostles, then we should observe all of it and not just focus on one of the 613 commands in the Law.
If Jesus primarily came to show us how to keep the Mosaic Law more effectively, as opposed to coming to completely fulfill the Mosaic Law, then we should keep ALL of it. However, if he came to completely fulfill the Law and redeem us from it, then we show poor gratitude indeed when we insist on remaining in bondage.
quote:Galatians 3:23-25 (NASB)
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 4:1-11 (NASB)
1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Chris
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Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 752
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 12:19 pm: | |
You will get no argument from me. That is just some of the lame "standing up for their faith" that you will experience from the Adventists. We have all been there and are so glad not to be doing it any longer. It's like poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick, only that's all some of these people have ever known so they don't even know that they are in pain!
I remember sitting in a classroom at Union College while the professor taught on the very texts you quoted above, but he didn't comprehend what Paul was saying and neither did we as his students because we were screening it through the red books. Those Damnable Red Books! How many lives have been held in bondage by them? How many more must be held in bondage by them?
There are so few denominations that truly understand the freedom of the Gospel, however. So many are still trying to keep the cross-stitched rendition of the ten commandments over the mantle while preaching the Good News. Most of Christianity is petrified of surrendering that much to the Holy Spirit. They speak about being saved by faith, but don't have enough faith to allow their lives to be transformed by the Breath of God. Surrender, surrender, surrender! Yes, we are on a battlefield, but we are not surrendering to the enemy when we surrender to the Holy Spirit. We are finally placing our lives in the only safe place there is. |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 97
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 7:16 pm: | |
Lindylou,
I am trying to read People of the Lie. It is intense. I sure can see people I know as potential "people of the lie". I have had some of these tendencies myself, so its a bit frightening, although I guess a true "person of the lie would not be able to recognize themselves in the discription. I hope this book has a good ending, its kinda depressing along he way for me.
Grace, would love to hear from you, via this forum or email. You are in my prayers.
Julie, where are you? Are you still around?
Im praying for you too.
Patrick, you too!
JavaGirl
4excape@bellsouth.net |
Schasc
Registered user
Username: Schasc
Post Number: 42
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 10:26 pm: | |
As I have been reading and studying I have been accused of always going to this site for my answers! I have been trying to look at other sites and get information from all places, but close friends of mine say that this site is basically just a bunch of bitter ex adventists who grew up in strict households! I can relate to the earlier posts about going around in circles sometimes. One minute the new covenant makes sense and then the next minute you have this fear of doing the wrong thing! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2952
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 11:38 pm: | |
Yes, Schasc, that is a completely typical and normal reaction. The only true solution to the confusion and internal chaos is to stay grounded in God's word and to continue praying that He will teach you with His Spirit. He is faithful, and Scripture really does reveal the truth.
It's not surprising that these doubts come; leaving Adventism is truly a spiritual battle. Further, we were taught that the Sabbath would be our final test of loyalty, that many would fall away, that Christianity is "apostate Protestantism"--we were taught many things that contribute to our heads and hearts having trouble catching up with each other.
Praying for you...
Colleen |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:46 am: | |
Actually, in reading the entire post by Ageis, it seems that he is making the point that SDAs have caused their own problems by using the 'pick and choose' to build doctrine...
-------------------------------------------------
quote:
"The comments about Adventists relying more on the OT is simply that in so doing, most of the Gospel through Paul's letters has been shoved aside.
Recently, an illustrative conversation between a couple, one raised SDA, the other as a Catholic. Both attended their respective parochial schools.
The Adventist, rather humorously remarked that the reason she knew so much about OT characters was that was the gist of what she was taught, while for the former Catholic, he was taught the NT. There is a lot of truth in that.
Paul's missionary journeys, the places, dates and ability to diagram them was what was felt to be important; while his message was brushed over if mentioned at all. Once an Adventist takes off is SDA glasses and hides the red books, and reads Paul just as written, it is almost impossible to miss his message of freedom from the law, the separation of the barrier between Jew and Gentile, the elimination of all Jewish ceremonies, and the acceptance of Christ and His Resurrection is the entire theme of the Christian church.
Christ NEVER came to establish a new religion. He was a Jew from birth to death, and therefore he was a righteous Jew as He obeyed all their rules. That is why SDAs recommend that observing the Jewish Sabbath should be continued because Jesus observed it, overlooking the other Jewish mandatory rules such as circumcision and temple worship.
It was Paul who established the Christian church and as the founder of Christianity, He was God's spokesmen in setting up the freedom offered in Christ which was not bound by Jewish law and rituals.
There is such a paradox in Adventism. In attempting to straddle the fence and maintain SOME of the Mosaic laws, combined with the Gospel, they do neither well. They "pick and choose" which of Moses' law in the Torah should be valid today and reject others. If anyone can give a coherent and rational rule by which these choices were made, please set them forth. A rational, sane individual can easily see there is no method for these decisions, nor have they been reevaluated since they were first established in the beginning of Adventism in the mid-nineteenth century. It's long past time that many of our "sacred cows" were subjected to a more modern world view. Any religion that does not grow, change, and evolve, will eventually become an anachronism."
--------------------------------------------------
He makes a good point about the SDA habit of ignoring the Pauline epistles in their desire to hang onto those aspects of the OT that they wish to keep and ignoring the rest. He also makes a good point that once you take off the 'SDA glasses', you cannot miss the freedom of the gospel.
He mentions the 'paradox' that is Adventism. Trying to choose the parts of the Torah that still apply and those that don't, and in mixing those things they wish to keep with the Gospel, we end up doing neither very well.
Still stuggling to find my balance...
InSearchOf |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1062
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:57 am: | |
It seems I owe Ageis an apology as I misinterpretted the point he was making.
I'm still not sure I entirely understand though. It still sounds to be me like he is suggesting that Jesus and Paul preached a different message. Jesus didn't start a new religion, but Paul did? Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding the thrust of his statement that "Jesus NEVER came to establish a new religion".
But at any rate, I agree with Ageis that you really can't pick and choose what parts of the Torah are valid so I do apologize to him for misinterpretting.
Chris |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 10:37 am: | |
Chris,
You are correct in pointing out that he suggests that Jesus and Paul preached a different message. I, like you, am confused about the statement that 'Jesus NEVER came establish a new religion'. Perhaps the writer is trying to imply that Jesus came to move the Jewish religion to its next 'phase' or something, I don't know.
Regarding his comment that Paul started a new religion, that seems a little strong (for lack of a better word). Could it be that it only seems that way since Jesus kept the law but the understanding that He 'fullfilled' the law was not clear until He had ascended and Paul was the primary Apostle that explained the New Covenant? Again, not wanting to put words in Ageis' mouth or anything, just wondering how to take some of the comments found in his post.
InSearchOf |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1063
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:52 am: | |
It's hard to say InSearchOf. There is a modern liberal argument that goes something like this:
"Jesus was a just a guy that was trying to bring some needed reforms to Judaism. He got killed for his trouble and he would be turning over in his grave today if he knew that people were worshipping him or that a religion had been instituted with his name in it. It was really Paul who figured out how to capitalize on the story of this dead Jewish revolutionary. It was Paul who was most responsible for creating and spreading Christianity. He and some of the other apostles only started to promote the idea of Jesus' deity and of his resurrection long after his death."
There are also people who would not go quite this far left, but would subscribe to at least some of those ideas. Hopefully, this is not what Ageis is saying. I've already misinterpretted once so I'll just say I'm not sure what he meant and leave it at that.
Chris
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2954
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:09 pm: | |
I agree, Chris--I'm not sure what Aegis meant, but I do think he/she sounds confused. I'm not sure he really knows what he means but is searching. That post quoted above reminds me of the mental gymnastics I used to go through when I was trying to make Adventism "make sense" with the Bible and regular Christianity. All that struggle, though, eventually prepared me to let the Holy Spirit actually teach me through the Bible.
I have to say, though, that it seems as if he is making some sort of distinction between Jesus' mission and Paul's--and I don't believe the Bible supports the idea that Paul's mission diverged from Jesus' purpose. Rather, Paul was part of God's eternal purpose.
Colleen |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 766
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:52 pm: | |
Chris, isn't it the Jesus Seminar people who are saying that Jesus is just some dead Jew that would be rolling in his grave...? Near the end of his life, Paul, somewhere in Acts, recited a list of the various difficulties and threats to his own life that he had survived, how many times he had been imprisoned for his faith and message, how he had been stoned, shipwrecked multiple times, set adrift mid-ocean for a protracted period of time once; I'm sure you are familiar with his list. My question is this, why would a person undergo the privations and threats that Paul willingly took on in his service to Christ Jesus (Paul's favorite way of mentioning the Savior) if the whole faith he was promoting was a figment of his own imagination?
I don't even begin to promote myself as a scholar and there are several on this forum who can quote scriptural rings around me, but I do know this; Nobody is going to go through as much peril as Paul did, then turn around and dive back into the work that put him in peril again, unless that belief that drove his life was a living thing. No one would do the things Paul (and the other apostles) did without there being a hearts-afire motive behind it. The only real answer for their dedication was that they were all, even Paul, eye-witnesses to an earth-shattering event that left them forever changed. Nothing can convince like walking and talking with a man/God who they had seen die. Christianity is not just some world-wide form of insanity. It is based on a real God who became a real man, who really died and then lived again.
As for Aegis, I'm not certain if he is still a practicing Adventist or not. I think he was trying to make the point that Jesus behaved as a Jew while he was on earth. From birth to crucifixion, He followed the Torah. I think he is wrong that Jesus hadn't come to create a new religion. Jesus came to make all things new, and by his very life he confirmed and completed the belief system into which he was born.
I know how hard it is to make a point while posting on a forum because there is always someone who will be able to pick apart what you have said. Aegis hit the nail on the head about Adventism trying to keep one foot in each of the covenants and as a result not being able to keep its balance. Freedom and slavery have always been at odds with each other. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1065
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 1:26 pm: | |
Yes, I agree with all your points Belva. You are also correct that the members of the Jesus Seminar are the most visible proponents of the Jesus vs. Paul view.
Chris |
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