| Author | Message | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2005 |
Am I the only one that gets a fire under their feet when the subject of tithing is brought up? I truly believe in giving, but only as God instructs me. It would not be until a speaker, (preacher, minister, pastor or chosen representative) starts in on Malachi 3:10 that my teeth start to grind. I would get so ANGRY! The Lord has blessed me to the point that now I only get saddened. It hurts to hear SUCH a heavy misquote of the Word! The Lord was talking to the PRIESTS during those verses, (and chapters) NOT the people! It begins, (Living Translation) Mal 2:1 "Listen, you priests; this command is for you!...Mal 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words. "Wearied him?" you ask. "How have we wearied him?" You have wearied him by suggesting that the Lord favors evildoers since he does not punish them. You have wearied him by asking, "Where is the God of justice?" And then the flow does not change in the next chapter... Mal 3:1 "Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. Then the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger of the covenant, whom you look for so eagerly, is surely coming," says the Lord Almighty. Mal 3:2 "But who will be able to endure it when he comes? Who will be able to stand and face him when he appears? For he will be like a blazing fire that refines metal or like a strong soap that whitens clothes. Mal 3:3 He will sit and judge like a refiner of silver, watching closely as the dross is burned away. He will purify the Levites, refining them like gold or silver, so that they may once again offer acceptable sacrifices to the Lord. Mal 3:4 Then once more the Lord will accept the offerings brought to him by the people of Judah and Jerusalem, as he did in former times. Mal 3:5 At that time I will put you on trial. I will be a ready witness against all sorcerers and adulterers and liars. I will speak against those who cheat employees of their wages, who oppress widows and orphans, or who deprive the foreigners living among you of justice, for these people do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty. Mal 3:6 "I am the Lord, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already completely destroyed. Mal 3:7 Ever since the days of your ancestors, you have scorned my laws and failed to obey them. Now return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord Almighty. "But you ask, `How can we return when we have never gone away?' Mal 3:8 "Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, `What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. Mal 3:9 You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Mal 3:10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the Lord Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you!" Aside from this fact...tithing is a law that was fulfilled by Jesus. He did not speak in cents and tenths but in guidance... Luke 6:38 "If you give, you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use in giving--large or small--it will be used to measure what is given back to you." Our Savior made it possible to give as His Spirit instructs. Forgive my hot headedness, but it is such a burden to my heart, this teaching and I have yet to be free to join a church because of this horrid, DEAD law's existence in a VAST MAJORITY of the churches here. Aside from that...GOOD MORNING!!! Jesus, thank You for Your sacrifice and for enduring all that you have, just for me! I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!! Shontay | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 312 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, Shontay--tithing is also a subject that I feel passionate about people knowing the truth about! It's yet more evidence that much of the Christian church is still bound by legalism. Since tithing was my "eye-opener" to the truth about the SDA church, it's become critical to me that we cannot belong to a church that promotes tithing in any way. When a couple years ago, our 3rd grade daughter expressed such shock over the fact that the tithe "gives the pastor a paycheck", and research showed me she was right to be shocked, that is what led me to get to the bottom of all the SDA claims and led us out of the SDA church. If the tithe issue started us out the door, I'm sure not going to be a part of any church that is confused about tithe! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2784 Registered: 12-2003  |
Absolutely--tithing (as Dennis often reminds us with excellent research) was an Old Covenant requirement and is now obsolete as we live by the "law of the Spirit of life" instead of the "law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2). Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 209 Registered: 2-2005 |
Shontay, Here's something by John MacArthur regarding tithing. You may want to check it out: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/tithe.htm Heretic | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 682 Registered: 1-2003 |
I cringe too, when my preacher talks (not harps...like the SDA) about tithing. He is old covenant on that one. Otherwise, I love my church. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2004 |
Now tell me what you think of this. My Sunday school teacher had a lesson on tithing. He had several verses that were from the New Testament that he says backs it up. I can get them for you if you want me to. But red flags go up for me anytime any religion uses old testament laws. (I wonder why?) Anytime any Christians tell me that tattoos are forbidden by God, I say "and where do you find that, Leviticus?" Don't get me wrong, I have no interest in tattoos and I don't really like them, I just don't like people using the OT laws and picking and choosing what they will follow. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 95 Registered: 1-2005  |
Hereitc, I really like that site you listed! I especially liked the comparisons to both taxation and to gambling. There certainly are similarities between pressure tithing and taxation. It's how the "establishment" is kept running. And pressure tithing/gambling? You're supposed to get a huge return on a small investment? It's strange for me to think of tithing as either taxation or gambling, but that't the way of it. -Tom | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1946 Registered: 3-2004  |
I told my pastor about tithing, after he gave a sermon on giving using Mal 3:10. I had researched it and gave him Bible verses to back it up. I spoke to him about it when I took him 5 books written by former SDAs and told him why I gave them to him. Other than that, I like the way that Christ is held up in my church. When "tithe" is mentioned, I just tell myself that God loves a cheerful giver. Diana | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2005 |
question: 1. regardlesss of what the church officially teaches, does anyone in the pew actually believe it or live by it? 2. assuming the leadership is successfully fleecing the flock, where does all that money go? surely there must be millions around somewhere? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1951 Registered: 3-2004 |
If you are talking about the SDA church, there is no accountability to the members about the money they give in tithe and offerings. I have seen something here on the internet about members for church accountability for the SDA church. If I can find it, I will put the URL here. For my church, there is accountability and the members can have access to where their money goes. Diana | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 291 Registered: 2-2001 |
Right before we left I asked if the GC books were audited by an independent CPA. They told me that because the way tithe was handled only an SDA CPA could understand the holiness of the tithe. I just laughed to myself. All CPAs pass the same test, but only SDA's are intellegent enough to preform a church audit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2812 Registered: 12-2003 |
Diana, you're right. During the early 80's Richard worked at the Pacific Union Conference Office. Shortly before he graduated and started work, the conference has built a new facility which included a complete gym/spa for the employees. While he was at the union office, he learned that tithe funds had been used to help fund that gym. The argument was that it was for the folks who ran the church, most of whom were ordained Adventist ministers. So, you see, that gym was for the clergy--that's what tithe is supposed to be for! Make no mistake; tithe isn't "floating around"; it's diverted wherever it's needed. It's nice to say it pays the clergy, but it does much more than that, and often it has nothing to do with spreading the gospel or supporting those doing the preaching. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2813 Registered: 12-2003 |
You touched their Achilles' heel, Violet. David Dennis was fired as the GC auditor years ago because he began to report serious misuses of funds. Officially he was fired on "morals charges" that were never actually proven, but the push to fire him began after he distributed his report and actually insisted the administration look at it seriously. Colleen | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2005 |
thank you. that was helpful information. personally, i've always preferred George Muellers approach to fund raising--he ran a chain of orphanages in england in the 1800's and never asked anyone for a penny--he just went int his closet and prayed until God sent him what he needed.. no guilt appeals, no fancy theology. just trust and perseverence....absolutely amazing story--that would put all the church fund raisers out of business if taken to heart--all you need is one praying pastor to fund the work! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2818 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pauls, I agree about Muellers' approach. Amy Carmichael in India operated that way, also. In order to function as did Mueller, people really need to trust God. That's often challenging, but God deliberately pushes us to deeper and deeper places of faith and surrender. Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 686 Registered: 1-2003 |
If you work for the GC, their insurance is unbelievable. They allow Lasik surgery, trips to the SDA health farms (like the one in Oklahoma)...which average SDA people couldn't afford. I think it's like 5000.00 bucks for a 1 or 2-weeks stay. Yet, it's the little people who fund it so the conference workers can go! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 687 Registered: 1-2003 |
Here is the link. It looks like it's 9600 bucks for the full 18-days but they have smaller packages. I know when I attended the SDA church, the pastor and his wife went for like two weeks and I am pretty sure the insurance paid for it because on their salary, there is no way they could afford 20 thousand bucks to stay 2-weeks. Unless the conference pulls strings for the employees? Now that is a thought! http://www.lifestylecenter.org/program_pricing.html | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 479 Registered: 4-2000  |
Diana, Technically, I am still a member of the MEMBERS FOR CHURCH ACCOUNTABILITY organization. I still get their newsletters, letters, etc. They hold many thousands of dollars of tithes and offerings in reserve to bargain with SDA Conference administrators. In fact, there is a special meeting tomorrow (Oct. 29) at the Loma Linda University church chapel (2 pm I think)with Pastor Ron Gladden from Vancouver, Washington, the senior pastor of White Memorial SDA church, Dr. Frank Knittel who a former president of Southern Adventist University, a USC economist, and several other notables in Adventism. It would be most perplexing to the GC if Pastor Ron Gladden convinces these high-profile, southern California SDA churches to adopt his alternate plan of church organization. This would mean that these churches would hire and pay their own clergy, fund missions, fund clergy retirement, group healthcare, etc. In other words, the local SDA church would be in full control of all funds given by their members. This new fiscal threat to the GC is very real. He who has the money has the power and influence. It should be a very interesting meeting tomorrow. This is yet another power struggle in Adventism. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2001 |
Dennis, In my opinion, the way the church is structured financially is part of how they keep the members in bondage. The conference holds the title to all property, even though the members paid for the building. That was one of the requirements my family could not swallow. | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2005 |
Violet, You touched a very sore spot with me! You are right. The Conference (local on up) lets the local church congregations sweat blood to raise money for schools, mission projects, churches etc. and let the churches do all of the worrying, thinking they are in charge of something. BUT...wait until there is a real conflict or the local church wants to go in a different direction than that dictated from on high and SUDDENLY everything belongs to the conference and you have almost NO SAY in the direction you will go. You have to live thru one of these mini-tornados to believe your eyes and ears. The notion of local control is a fairy tale. Dennis, I personally believe Ron Gladden and his ideas are just the tip of the iceberg in Adventism. More and more SDA's are becoming disenchanted with the total lack of control over church finances combined with appeal after appeal for more money. North America is still the cash cow for the GC. They are being asked for hundreds of millions of dollars annually to fund international projects. They have zero input as to how the funds will be used and no accountability for expenditures. In the age of information, this spells disaster long-term. DT |
