| Author | Message | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi (again..:-) well, I'm feeling a little "uneasy" by asking so many questions but I'm totaly new to SDA and like I mentioned in previous threads I'm in close contact with SDA people so that's why I need advice so now and then. Anyway, there's so much to do about the keeping the sabbath and that seems to be the most important seperation between 'them' and (almost) the rest of christianity. Last week, during our bible study (me and a few SDA)one of them made the remark that we (non-SDA) have no reason to worship on sunday and that they are the ones who are keeping the sabbath. Good for me if they feel happy with it BUT...his statement made me wonder what it actually means 'keeping the sabbath'. I try to figure out what God had in mind when he gave to Israel. I'm not looking how SDA is supposed to keep it, only how it should be kept according to the Bible. Some advice would be welcome. Willy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 713 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Keeping the Sabbath" is a uniquely Adventist thing to do. I've never heard another Christian talk about "Keeping the Sunday." They go to church, then go home and watch the game. Keeping the Sabbath is a whole elaborate thing about getting the house all cleaned up, clothing prepared, and in some families baths taken and food prepared before sundown Friday night. Then one must be careful not to speak of secular things, read secular literature, or engage in worldly activities from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown. Incumbent upon the believer is to also attend as many worship services as possible during that 24 hour period. When I was in school we had Friday night vespers, Sabbath School, Church, some sort of Sabbath afternoon service, and then Sabbath evening vespers. That is Sabbath Keeping. Understand, Willy, that all of this "Sabbath Keeping" that is going on in the above description has very little to do with the way Sabbathing is described in the Levitical 4th Commandment. The commandment simply tells the believer not to work, and not to require one's servants to work. The commandment goes so far as to say you are not to leave your "place" or home. This is just an extension of law keeping. Jesus died because we are incapable of keeping the law so he kept it for us, and then died in our place. End of discussion on law keeping. Romans makes it clear -- Romans 3:20 -- "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Paul made this statement after Jesus died. That means that Jesus died for the people who lived before he live, those who were alive when he was alive, and for all who have lived since he died and was raised again in triumph over sin and death. Colleen and I have been discussing the importance of surrender and how it can be the hardest thing to do. Surrender means that you have to give up on saving yourself and allow someone else who is more capable to do the job. It's all a matter of how much you trust yourself, and how much more you trust that other person, in this case Jesus is that other person. You don't have to "keep" the Sabbath. You do need to surrender and let Jesus keep you. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2772 Registered: 12-2003  |
Belva is right, Willy. "Sabbath-keeping" is uniquely Adventist at this point, as far as I know--at least in the way they keep it. It's true that some Christian churches try to superimpose the fourth commandment on Sunday, but such reasoning is completely unbiblical. The New Testament simply says NOTHING about keeping a day. In Mattehw 11:28 Jesus said to come unto Him and He would give rest. Hebrews 4 explains that no one--not even Israel--entered God's rest, and they had the Sabbath. It goes on ot say that TODAY we can enter that rest, that a Sabbath rest still remains for the people of God. It's not a day, however. Adventists, like ancient Israel, largely miss the meaning of Sabbath in the OT. It was a reminder of God's finished work--His finished work at the end of creation when He ceased from His labors, and He and Adam and Eve were in perfect oneness. It's also a shadow of His finished work at the cross--when innately sinful man again was able to be in oneness with God because of Jesus' shed blood and finished atonement. Adventists do not see the Sabbath as representing God's rest. They see it as memorializing creation, or being a sign of obeying God. Yet the Bible never calls is a memorial of creation. It calls it a reminder of God's rest and finished work. It's a reminder of God's "ceasing", or being finished. It's a shadow of our entering His finished work. It's not about God's WORK; it's about His being FINISHED--and we can enter that finished work. Surrender is the name of the game, Willy. Keeping the Sabbath is, first of all, not a new covenant requirement. Jesus nailed the law to the cross in His body (Colossians 2:14-15), and He is the end of the law for those who believe (Romans 10:4). Second, if we try to keep the Sabbath (and by implication the law) as Christ-followers, we are committing spiritual adultery. Our loyaty is to be totally to Jesus. The Sabbath was a shadow of Him; to hang onto the shadow is placing the shadow in the seat of the REAL THING, Jesus. We have to surrender our desire to hedge our bets and cover our bases. We have to give up the law, give up the shadows, give up all "requirements" except that of surrender to Jesus in faith that His sacrifice and His rightesouness are enough. Willy, I'm going to suggest that you visit www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.org and order the book "Sabbath in Christ" by Dale Ratzlaff. It is the most comprehensive study I know of that examines Jesus as the fulfillment of the old covenant and the One who keeps the new covenant for us. It deals with the subject from the deep understanding of Adventist arguments. I think it would be very helpful to you. Praying for you! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1136 Registered: 7-2003  |
Willy, I know your question is regarding the Biblical sabbath requirements, but I wanted to respond to their remark that we have no reason to worship on Sunday. First, the Lord resurrected on the first day of the week. That is the primary reason the founding fathers record that they began to worship on Sunday. Is that really an irrelevant event?? No, the bible does not command us to celebrate the resurrection, neither does it command us to celebrate birthdays, and no SDA I know has a problem with that. Secondly, when is it ever a bad day to worship God? Just because the Bible doesn't say "worship on Sunday" doesn't mean it is a sin to do so, or Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday either. Some of the arguments they're likely to give you don't have anything to do with what the Bible teaches about the Sabbath (and Dale's book Colleen recommends is excellent). The SDAs I know repeat their cliche phrases (and the more I learn of SDAs across the country, the more I'm surprised at how prolific certain catch phrases are), yet do not really understand what they're insinuating on the flip side. The remark above that you don't have any reason to worship on Sunday is case in point. Where does scripture ever say there is a wrong day to worship God?? The sabbath issue is the hardest to have reasonable discussion about from my experience. They are convinced about the eternalness of "God's law" (which to them is the 10 commandments) and then equally convinced about the mandate that the 4th commandment is vital for their eternal security. The Bible is very simple about what the sabbath was. In the 10 Commandments, it is a day to cease work. The Commandments themselves say nothing about worship...and I've stopped an SDA or two when asking them to show me where the 10 Commandments require worship on Saturday. Though they don't have a response to that, their mind is no less swayed towards it's vitalness to attend SDA worship on Saturday. Going to a non-SDA church on Saturday doesn't cut it. I also came here with lots of confusion and there are great resources here. Ask away any time. I know how lost you probably feel in trying to comprehend these alleged "truths" they're trying to teach you. But don't be fooled... it is not as it may seem at first glance. | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think that SDA 's read Isaiah where it talks about not doing your own pleasure on the Sabbath. Sorry I do not know where it is found for sure to give you the exact text. When I have asked about why certain activities are not acceptable that is the answer I get | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2777 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Schasc, the text you have in mind is Isaiah 58:13. In CONTEXT, however (there's that word again!), the command is in a passage in which God is explaining the true fasting He wants from His people: breaking the bonds of injustice, setting the oppressed free, untying the cords of the yoke-- All this is in the setting of God's addressing Israel's bondages to Babylon and Assyria and looking forward to His deliverance of them. It's anticipating their rebuilding Jerusalem and being God's true representatives on earth. Isaiah 58:13 is not a verse that can be taken out if its context and applied to Christians today. It has no relevance out of context. If there is a way it can be applied to Christians, we would have to take the whole chapter and see it through the eyes of Jesus being the one to destroy the bonds and seet the captives free. We would have to see the whole chapter as being a shadow of fulfillment in Christ. If we see the whole chapter through Messianic lenses, then Isaiah 18:13 would also be Messianic, and honoring the Sabbath would have the new covenant application of honoring our true rest: Jesus. It would mean we live to honor Him, not ourselves. We don't turn away from Him to do our own pleasure, but we call Him a delight. We submit all of our desires and pleasures to Him. Willy, as for worshiping on Sunday, it is a fact that Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, and it is also a fact that Pentecost was on Sunday. In fact, the feat of Pentecost was always held on the first day of the week a certain number of weeks after Passover. This had been true since Sinai. Most Adventists don't know that the feast of booths, (Pentecost), was a sacred holy day on the first day of the week throughout Israel's history. It was a divine intention that the birth of the church was on the first day of the week. Of course, that fact doesn't make Sunday sacred--it just establishes that Sabbath wasn't the only holy day, and in the New Testament, the need for seventh-day observance was ended. Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 208 Registered: 2-2005 |
Willy, A former SDA minister named Clay Peck gave an excellent sermon on the role of Sabbath and how it relates to us as New Covenant Christians back in the year 2000 I think it was. The really interesting part is that it was given to his SDA church before they split from the Colorado Conference so it's worded in fairly sensitive language which has made it easier for me to share with current SDA's. You'll find a paper that closely approximates this sermon here: http://www.graceplace.org/media/documents/SabbathObservance.doc Check it out when you get the chance. You'll be glad that you did. There are many other great resources available to you on this topic. All you have to do is ask and we'd be happy to oblige!  Heretic | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thanks to all for al the interesting thoughts and remarks. By the way, Colleen, I ordered "Sabbath in Christ" so I'm looking forward to recieve it and read it. quote : "The Commandments themselves say nothing about worship...and I've stopped an SDA or two when asking them to show me where the 10 Commandments require worship on Saturday. Though they don't have a response to that" Now, Melissa, I agree that in the 10 commandments there's no mention about how to keep the sabbath. It just calls it a day of rest, but you can't deny that Leviticus 23:3 clearly talks about "...a day of sacred assmebly..." so it seems to me that it was supposed to be a day of 'worship' or gathering. I think you can't get around this verse..(I can't). Heretic, I'll check it out and thanks for the help! Willy | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 480 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yep, Leviticus 23:3 does indeed say Holy Convocation or day of worship. Here's the problem: SDAs always try to divide the Law into the "big Ten" and everything else. They tried Moral vs. Ceremonial; On Stone vs. not on stone; or in the ark vs. beside the ark. None of it does any good because no matter how they try to divide it, they always end up using parts of the Ten Commandments with parts of the "other-than-the-Ten." If they say "on stone = eternal Law, everything else nailed to the cross" then you ask, "Why to you worship on Saturday? There is nothing on stone about that" and "why do you tithe? That's not on the stones" and "why do you refrain from eating pork because you call it 'unclean?' That's not on stone." If they insists on those things, you ask, "then why don't you do ALL the feast days of Leviticus 23 if you do one?" and "Why don't you do the tithe correctly? There's no money involved even though there was money in those times." and "Why do you disobey God and fail to eat beef or fish? Those were commanded, not optional in the same chapter that declared pork unclean." No matter how they try to corrupt/divide God's word, it ends up getting them tripped up. Torah (the Law) is ALL of the Law. They accuse others of "pick and choose" when they are among the biggest "pickers." | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 254 Registered: 5-2004 |
Lev 23:3 states: "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings" Two observations: 1) the "in all your dwellings" seems to correspond to the pre-Sinai command to not leave their homes.(ex 16) 2) holy convocation doesn't seem to always refer to assembly. miqra (896d); from H7121; a convocation, convoking, reading: - assemblies (2), assembly (2), convocation (14), convocations (3), reading (1), summoning (1). the exact phrase is used 19 times in the books of Moses. Twice in Exodus, 11 times in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus, and 6 others in chapters 28 & 29 of Numbers. Most of the uses apply specifically to the priesthood and sacrifices. "the corporate connotation was for the priests only; the place of this corporate worship was in the Tabernacle or Temple, and it was for the purpose of sacrifes. Since only the priesthood could do the work of sacrificing, the holy convocation applied only to them" Ariel manuscript #176 "in reality, the Mosaic Law mandated corporate worship only on three occasions: the feasts of Passover, Weeks, and Tabernacles, when they were to migrate to wherever the Tabernacle stood, either at Shiloh or later in Jerusalem where the Temple stood. Corporate worship by non-Levites was mandated only three times a year, not on a weekly Sabbath. This would have been physically impossible in light of the time it took to travel during biblical times. To profane the Sabbath was to consider it as any other day, and the penalty was death. Therefore, on the Sabbath they were to do no labor, there were to stay home and rest (Ex 16:29)" Ariel #176. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2787 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great info, Esther. Thanks. I'm glad you ordered the book, Willy. You will find it truly helpful. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1146 Registered: 7-2003 |
Willy, Jerry and Esther have said most of what I would have. But if they jump to Lev 23, they CANNOT start at verse 3. To keep it in context they MUST include verse 2, which says this is the "FEAST DAYS" of the Lord. Most SDAs don't consider what Moses wrote down as eternal as mentioned above, so when they go running to Leviticus to prove the Sabbath, why do they only include those verses that make their point and not the context of the whole? If Lev. 23 is still binding, there are a host of other feast days still binding. Most don't want to go there if they have to include verses 1-2 and the rest of the chapter as part of the context of that verse. It's all about good Bible study techniques. You can't pull a phrase out of context and make a doctrine, at least not legitimately. God has awaken me in the middle of the night as I struggled with a passage to tell me to read further into the context, and then I'd laugh out loud at how stupid their analysis of the verse was given the context prior to the verse (I had just read after the verse). Never let them isolate a phrase and use it to make a point. Every verse has a context in the chapter/book and testament it was written in. Never ignore it. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 218 Registered: 6-2001  |
Well, Jesus walked around in fields, past sick people and went to the synagogue on the Sabbath. Why did he do this before the crucifixion if the old covenant was still in affect? Maybe because all the other Jews were doing it. And I'm not saying Jesus was subject to peer pressure, because He must have had another reason. Maybe it has something to do with Paul's statment "to the Jews I'm a Jew, to the Greeks, I'm a Greek." Could Jesus have been above the old covenant somehow? Speculatively, Hannah P.S. Is "Sabbath in Christ" an updated version of the book "Sabbath in Crisis"? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1147 Registered: 7-2003 |
yes, Sabbath in Christ is a revised, updated Sabbath in Crisis. | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thanks Melissa for your advice! I read that passage again and you're right...it's always about the context, and it seems that to me it's crucial to apply it whenever they come up with verses otherwise I'll be lost in meanless discussions (and I'll be doubting a lot). Thanls a lot for reminding me!! Willy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2792 Registered: 12-2003 |
Another comment on that Leviticus passage: Adventists refuse to acknowledge the Sabbath as "another" feast day. They say it is a "moral" law unlike all the other feast days which they consider "ceremonial". In reality, Jesus would never have broken a moral "law"--in fact, he did not. But he did break the unique Jewish laws. He touched and healed lepers without going to the priests and pursuing ritual cleansing. He touched and raised dead people without ritual cleansing. He broke the Sabbath, according to John 5:18. If the Sabbath had been an eternal entity which Jesus had to observe in order to be Holy, he would not have broken the day. As it is, Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath--not merely a human who had to honor it as a sign of his covenant with God. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1009 Registered: 10-2004  |
Willy, in response to your original question, here is how the Bible says to "keep the Sabbath": 1. You must be living between the time when the Sabbath was given (Exodus 16) at the beginning of (and as the sign of) the Old Covenant (between God and Israel), and the Cross, when the entire Old Covenant, including its sign (the Sabbath), was fulfilled in Christ and became obsolete (Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 8:6-13, Galatians 4, 2 Corinthians 3). 2. In order to be eligible to keep the Sabbath, you must be an Israelite, a servant of an Israelite, or a stranger staying with an Israelite. Gentiles were not allowed to keep the Sabbath, as it was a special sign between God and Israel to "sanctify them," or set them apart from the Gentiles (Exodus 31:12-17). 3. You must not cook food on the Sabbath day (Exodus 16:23). 4. You must not leave your place (Exodus 16:29). 5. You must not do ANY work, and you must not let your wife, sons, daughters, servants, animals, or visitors do ANY work (Exodus 20:10, Deuteronomy 5:14). 6. You must not kindle a fire (Exodus 35:3). 7. You must not buy or sell anything (Nehemiah 13, Amos 8:5). 8. You must not carry a load (Jeremiah 17). 9. Whoever violates the Sabbath must be put to death (Exodus 31:14-15). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on October 26, 2005) | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 294 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jeremy, Thank you for posting this list. I just had time this AM to sit down and read all of the verses. The one that struck me the most was 2 Corinthians 3. I have read this chapter before but somehow did not have the ahah moment like just now. Verses 13-16 speak of a veil being over the Old Testament not allowing understanding until we look through Christ. I have to say no truer words have ever been spoken to me and about me. I basically had zero understanding until I gave it all up to Jesus. Imagine that being in the Bible all along---I just could not see it! | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2005 |
Jerry: I just checked this quoute from you ""Why do you disobey God and fail to eat beef or fish? Those were commanded, not optional in the same chapter that declared pork unclean." It must be Lev 11 you refer to. Most bible translations say that you "may eat" the clean food. Only KJV uses "that shall ye eat". My Strong dictionary does not give any hint, there is no hebrew word giving any direction. So, I would not use this argument in a discussion against an SDA... /Dinolf | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 |
Belvalew/ S.D.A'S are not the only Sabbath observers{sat} World Wide church of God, TRUE Rastafarians, Seventh Day Church of God, Seventh Day Baptist, Seventh Day Pentecostal all observe saturday as the Sabbath |
