| Author | Message | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 563 Registered: 7-2004 |
Has anyone ever heard this term? If so, what does it mean? I am finding more and more that God is putting people in my path where my SDA background can be useful or helpful. One such person is the wife of the children's pastor at church. Both her and her husband are students at WWC. The church is helping them both with a master's degree. She in teaching and he in social work. This quarter she is taking two upper level religion courses: History of Adventism (427) and Daniel and Revelation (another 300 or 400 level class). Of course, none of it is making any sense at all to her. She feels such a sadness for the "kids" in her classes (she is in her 40's). She feels a great deal of the young college kids have animosity towards EGW and church doctrine. In her small group (in the History of Adventism class) she said most of them tell her that there is no Biblical support for most of what the professor tells them. She also has asked different professors something about specific SDA beliefs and their response is "...we're going to study that later...maybe when we study [such and such] you will understand..." What makes her most upset is that these kids understand something isn't right but they don't know what! She has a heart to lift the darkness and share The Light and Truth with them but she is not sure exactly how. Alden Thompsen is the professor of the History Of Adventism. A question she was given on a research paper is this: "Do you spot any triumphalism in the works of Froom?" She believed Froom was a SDA author but she was unsure. Apparently Thompsen told the class that they needed to find the meaning of "triumphalism" but that it would be difficult to find. She has looked and has come up short. I told her if my FAF friends didn't know, we would really be in trouble because I didn't know anyone as smart as formers!!  | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 959 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dd, Leroy Froom was one of the more moderate voices in SDA. Walter Martin was impressed with him. However, a classic example of Triumphalism is mentioned in Paxton's "Shaking of Adventism", p.152, footnote "At a GC session worship 1/9/76, the President of the GC Robert H. Pierson said, "When you and I joined the GC family something special happened to us. When we begin work in the GC office we become part of what inspiration describes as God's highest authority on earth..All of us are something special in God's sight. Our relationship to our church, to the world field, to one another, and to the work entrusted to us is unique. WE ARE PART OF THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY THAT GOD HAS ON EARTH...These buildings are not ordinary buildings...These buildings constitute a consecrated place where God, through His appointed servants--you,me--directs His worldwide work...." Then Paxton adds his own note "Pope Paul, please take note!" If the above isn't the greatest example of some of the most egregious arrogance, then I don't know what is. This can only be matched by the Papacy, which proves so clearly that SDA and RCC is out of the same cloth of heresy and triumphalism! Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2828 Registered: 12-2003  |
I got the following definiton of "triumphalism" from www.bartleby.com: The attitude or belief that a particular doctrine, especially a religion or political theory, is superior to all others. The following website also has some good material on it: http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain12.htm In the religious realm, "triumphalism" seems to be used mostly in reference to charismatic/pentecostal movements. LeRoy Froom was an Adventist; he wrote a well-known four-volume series in the 50s in which, among other things, he tried to show that the Adventist view of eschatology was the view the Christian church held historically. If your friend Google's LeRoy Froom, she'll come up with quite a lot of references to his works. Alden Thompsen is a loyal SDA who is trying hard to make the SDA traditions "palatable" by "reinterpreting" them to some degree. He takes a liberal view of Scripture and would consider inerrancy to be rigid and "fundamentalist" (a word which he would consider NOT a compliment). I hope this helps--I really don't know much about triumphalism. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2005 |
Personally I have my own definition of triumphalism. I live in Romania 14 years under the dictatorship of Ceausescu, and this was a era of triumphalism. Everybody in the country knew that the life was very hard, but on TV, because of propaganda, we saw and heard only good things, only victory after victory, only success story. And of course, our communist society was superior to capitalism. We don't have unemployed people, people without homes, and other evils of capitalism. We don't have drugs, organized crime, abortions. But in reality, all this things existed. The triumphalism is adopting the attitude of someone who triumphs in life, who has victories, when the reality is contrary. It means (keep in mind that this is a personal definition)to boast of a statute fabricated by yourself to put you above other people. Like this: "Of course, there are some apostay in adventism, but adventism is not in apostasy" Which means that are some lay people or some pastors who are apostate, but the organization as a body is not. What are the ground? We are the remnant. And God guides us, and will guide us in safety because we are his special people, not like the other churches. And this in spite of the fact that the people are in the bondage of sin, including the leaders. many adventists know these facts, but, officially, they never speak in public about these, only that God guides this denomination, and everything will be well. Triumphalism means to behave like someone who triumphed, but in reality is defeated. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 114 Registered: 1-2005  |
I can see all sorts of triumphalism at work in the SDA church since day one. On another thread, we were talking about how religion has a history of "conming out", as in from the Hebrews to the early Christians, to the Catholics, to the Protestants, to the SDA church, etc. Obviously, it's a sort of a treeing out, and some branches wither before splitting, etc. It seems to me that many religions adopt a triumphalism of doctrine, which makes them more prone to later divisions. In looking at some of the links above, I linked into sdaapostasy.org, a very bizarre site indeed! It reminds me a great deal of the forboding and brooding that can be such a part of religionists everywhere. It's sensational, glossy, and not very scholarly at all. It does have a year-by-year breakdown of supposed SDA apostasy that makes for some interesting reading. They seem to have an ax-grinding list that includes Froom, and former GC President Wilson. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 115 Registered: 1-2005 |
This definition site makes some interesting extended remarks. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/triumphalism -Tom | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 116 Registered: 1-2005 |
Sorry, this is too good to pass up! From the above site, Triumphalism brings with it these dangers: Impaired ability to judge the value or morality of the group's actions ("The fact the we are doing this is proof that it is the right thing to do."); Cessation of creativity and innovation within the group ("We're the best, so we should resist any kind of change."); Blindness to other groupsí strengths and innovations ("We have nothing to learn from anyone; they are all inferior."); Inattention to internal weaknesses and to changing circumstances that affect the welfare of the group (perhaps due to psychological denial or to a false sense of security, control, or invulnerability); and A tendency to over-reach against the groupís competitors, based on an inflated sense of the likelihood of triumph in conflict. Among the signs that triumphalism has infected a group are: Expressions of hostility and charges of disloyalty against group members who identify and attempt to address internal weaknesses of the group's doctrine, culture, or social system; and A lack of planning for foreseeable difficulties or for failure of even large initiatives. Sound familiar to anybody? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2834 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow--interesting quotes, Tom. And the description of the Ceausescu regime is a great example, Jackob. It does, indeed, sound all too familiar. Colleen | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2005 |
My son went to WWW and experienced Alden Thompson's classes, as well as other "Bible" classes. He told me that while the professors often walked a fine line between upholding and condemming Adventit doctrine, they always came down on the side of Adventism in the end. He said that no matter what was discussed in class, you better stick to the old party line on exams or you would fail the class. There was no room for personal opinion, even if the question was started as "in your opinion what is...". By the end of college he was pretty disgusted with SDAism. I've spent time talking with Alden and while he questions and sounds open-minded, he never quite goes so far as to disparage the SDA Church or its doctrine. He always has a way to make it fit (in his mine) somehow. My son says he thinks Alden and the other professors are just afraid of the repercussions of open dissent. I'm not sure where Alden really stands. But his type of SDA is what makes Adventism seem somewhat mainstream. I think it is the most dangerous kind of SDAism, because it covers up the real cultic truth of Adventism. Weimarred - I loved the definition of Triumphalism you posted above. It's so true of the SDA Church! Dare I say it? - it also sounds like Bush and his cronies right about now! OK, I know - no politics! -tisha | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 564 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I have emailed all your responses to my friend. If there are more thoughts, just keep posting and I will forward. Does anyone know who runs that www.sdaapostasy.com website? As Tom said, it is a very weird site. I can't figure which side of the argument they represent. I didn't have a lot of time to read, though. Maybe it would be self-explanatory if I spent more time there? Denise | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 323 Registered: 8-2004  |
It appears to me that www.sdaapostasy.org is a call out of the SDA 'organization' into the SDA homechurch movement. In fact on the page titled, "Is SDA church of Babylon," there is quite a list of EGW quotes and Bible quotes which perportedly 'prove' that "the children of God must come out of all churches INCLUDING the corrupted SDA church." It is interesting to me that there is no owner information readily available. No name, address, or other identifying info except for what is internal to the text itself. Even the 'contact us' does not tell you who you are contacting. Hmm. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2005 |
You're right. I couldn't find any names, personal or otherwise. There is a link to "Brad Templeton", but I think that's regarding an essay on copyrights only. If you go in there and click on "SDA Apostasy", then on "SDA Apostasy year by year", it displays an interesting time line, particularly the latter 1900s. (This timeline is what registered this site when I Googled "SDA" and "Froom".) I guess according to this site, Froom was an unconsionable liberal. Interestingly enough, this site also links to www.sdaoutreach.com | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 118 Registered: 1-2005 |
Ok. Time out. That site I just listed is a subtle SDA related site, very cleverly packaged, I must say. I guess the three angels logo should have been a clue. Does anyone know anything about Aaron Roberson? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1963 Registered: 3-2004  |
I just did a web search and this is what I found about Aaron Roberson. This is from the web site "prophetic ministries". Aaron Roberson's Testimony. "Getting into fights, using and selling drugs ó Aaron's life of hosting parties ended one night as he was returning from the night clubs in Hollywood. Learn how God transformed an unbelieving skeptic's life into a passionate journey of faith." It does not have any identifying marks as being SDA, but a look at their forum looks like they are. Diana | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 304 Registered: 2-2001 |
Helovesme2, I agree with you that this site seems even more on the fringe than the church itself. I would be suspect of anyone who does not tell you up front who they are--oh wait are we at a Revelation Seminar? ;) |
