| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2770 Registered: 12-2003  |
Belva, I so completely agree. Surrender is the one thing God asks of us. You're right about the dance with works within Christianity. Yet as Stan adn Ric-b so often remind us, the gospel is about Jesus alone. He has done everything we need. Our job is to stand, as you said, Belva, and wait for God to do His work in and around and through us. Giving up myself to be found in Him is a whole new way to live--and I keep taking back my own effort! But God keeps reminding me I must surrender. Surrender to Jesus is the one thing that does set us free. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 331 Registered: 7-2004  |
It is nice to see yourself described as someone who is often reminding others that the Gospel is about Jesus alone. I don't know of anything nicer that I could hope for someone to say about me. Thanks. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 216 Registered: 6-2001  |
Stan, as an analogy, I remember seeing a picture of a person in a magazine, but it was not an actual person. It was a person made up of pictures of every race all mixed together. So maybe kind of that is what perfect truth is like. Maybe God does need all sorts of people to balance each other out and advance His perfect truth. People at one end like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels and people at the other end like you and Bob Jones (yes I finally confess that is where I went to school) and maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, the purity of the truth yet the openmindedness of the outstretched arms. I'm not saying this to put you down in any way. This is just how we all are. Peacefully, Hannah | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 951 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Hannah, Thanks for that comparison between me and Bob Jones! If you went to school at Bob Jones, then you know what a true fundamentalist really is. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think they were KJV only as well as banning interracial dating. That alone would disqualify me since you saw a picture of my wife in a recent Proclamation! I am a fundamentalist when it comes to affirming the doctrine of inerrancy of scripture, and affirming all the essential truths of Christianity which definitely does include the Trinity. It also includes the doctrine of justification by faith alone. I do know that at Bob Jones you got a lot of anti-catholic rhetoric, and some of it might have appeared hateful, but all of us who are rejoicing in the gospel of grace cannot in any way affirm that Catholicism or SDA is just another denomination of Christianity. As John MacArthur says, RCC is a different religion, and the true church has always affirmed this. What you have is both Warren and Hybels compromising the doctrine of the Trinity when they appear on the same stage with T.D. Jakes who denies the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity, and you have clear evidence in print, in Warren's own words, that he is now compromised with Catholicism. Catholics, like SDAs do not have any assurance of their salvation, they have fear of purgatory in a similar way that an SDA fears the investigative judgment. These systems are totally incompatible with the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and in no way can light have fellowship with darkness. Who would want to go back to those chains that were in the darkness on that ship that Chris talked about in his parable? That is what happens when the evangelical church tries to somehow get together to agree on what the gospel is with RCC. Just one more point about Bob Jones. The type of fundamentalism that was taught there is not what the Reformers such as Luther taught. Those rules against drinking, dancing, etc, etc. are also rules made by men, and also represent those chains that bind men's consciences as Chris spoke so well about. I have no problem with a lot of what the seeker movement has tried to do. The issue is not with musical styles. The issue is whether there is compromise with the teaching of the pure Word of God, and with His gospel of grace. There are some doctrines which cannot be compromised. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1148 Registered: 7-2003  |
Do you like the music of Philips Craig and Dean? If you do, and I do, do you buy it? Are you aware they're modalists? And should we be listening to them on Christian radio with that doctrinal position? If you didn't know their position on those issues, there's nothing within their music that would specifically say "questionable doctrine within". Not at all supporting modalism, but at what point do we discourage all? If they did not support modalism, there is nothing I've heard in their music that specifically speaks heretically. Should all Christian artists avoid them because of this doctrine, I'll call heretical? What should our response/support be to music we enjoy, yet personal doctrines we don't? (just as an example cuz I struggle with this one) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 335 Registered: 7-2004 |
Melissa, I have a similar struggle with P, C & D. I have certainly listened far more critically to their lyrics since learning that they were modalists. I suspect that if I heard something that concerned me I would probably stop listening to their music. But at this point I just approach each new song I hear from them with caution. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1023 Registered: 7-2003  |
Melissa, I can answer this for myself. Personally, I don't go running across the room to turn on Phillips, Craig, and Dean (PCD) when they come off the radio, but I would never purchase a PCD album or attend a PCD concert. Why, you ask? Because the truths God has clearly revealed about His Being and Persons in scripture are not non-essentials. These are at the very core of Christianity. What you believe about God has a very real effect on how you live. Have you ever encountered a member of a modalist group that wasn't completely steeped in legalism? Have you ever talked to a modalist who believed that your baptism was valid? If so, let me know, because my experience is that a modalist that majors in grace and is willing to accept the baptism of other Christians as valid is hard to find. As evangelicals I do not think we can in good conscience do anything that would tend to loan credence to what is truly an outright heresy of the most serious type. Nor can we lend legitimacy to any group or person in a way that might allow an unsuspecting soul to stumble into the trap of cultism. Make no mistake, the UPC and other similar modalist groups are cults. It starts with their erroneous view of God, but extends to nearly all areas of theology and daily practice. I would highly recommend this article by well know evangelical apologist James R. White: LOVING THE TRINITY. White even intorduces his article by dealing with the PCD question you asked. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2793 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ric_b, I've had a similar response to learning P, C & D are modalists. I listen a lot more critically, but I still sing their songs. (I have to say, though, that I've listened less to them since learning about their theology. I'm not proud of that response, nor am I recommending it--in fact, I've done it almost without thinking about it. I do struggle, though, with exactly the question you raised, Melissa.) I believe that having to make a clean break in my head and my behavior between the true gospel and Adventism--letting go of even the things I liked or approved of in Adventism in order to be uncompromised in what I espoused--has made me a little more reactive to heresy in other venues than I might have been othewise. I have no problem with people buying and listening to P, C & D, for example. In fact, I believe their music probably reveals truth to many people. Yet knowing what I know, I find myself holding back from full personal endorsement of their music. I'm not sure I should do this--I'm just finding that the knowledge of their modalism makes me more cautious and less likely to personally invest in them. (I'm not suggesting my reaction is prescriptive for others, but that's where I am at the moment.) Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 336 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, I agree there is a difference between listening to the group and financially supporting them through purchasing their CDs or paying to attend their concert. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 317 Registered: 8-2004  |
I too have questions as to how theology (and beliefs in general) should affect what music we listen to, what books we read, etc. I remember as a young SDA being taught that particular classical music was bad because of the passion the composer was in at the time of composing it ("Rage Over a Lost Penny" for example), that another composer's music was suspect because they were homosexual, . . . but that the music on "The Sound of Music" was all fine (dispite the obvious Catholic leaning of the movie). It's amusing (now that I don't take it so all-fired serious) to watch people try to define what is 'appropriate' for others. Such hair splitting! Such straining at gnats! One older minister I knew went about the SDARM while I was in Bible School presenting that the problem with music was syncopation - but he would puzzledly admit that "Be Still My Soul" was just fine despite the syncopation. I do think the message of the music or other entertainment we seek is important - but knowing every detail of the performers or composer's lives seems to me to be somewhat irrelevant. Discernment is needed, wisdom is needed. Sounds like a job for the Holy Spirit to me! Mary | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1024 Registered: 7-2003 |
Typo correction, that should read: "Personally, I don't go running across the room to turn off Phillips, Craig, and Dean (PCD) when they come on the radio, but I would never purchase a PCD album or attend a PCD concert." Not sure how I flipped that around :-) Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1025 Registered: 7-2003 |
Mary, my issue with PCD is not the music per se. You may have noticed that they do very little original work and mostly do remakes of other's worship songs. My issue is that they are pastors of cultic "churches" that are presenting themselves to the masses as mainstream Christians. It would be much the same as supporting a Mormon group or JW group that was trying to pawn itself off as Christian. I personally do not want to do something by my example that might suggest these groups are truly what they claim to be. I do see PCD as being in a different category than secular artists. Secular artists don't claim to be anything other than what they are. PCD claims to be Christian while denying one of the central tenets of the Chritian faith as taught by scripture. Big difference in my mind. Chris | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 318 Registered: 8-2004 |
 I was not trying to negate your issue Chris, and you have a very valid point that people selling themselves as something they are not is a big problem. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2796 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Chris, you make a good point. You've put words to my feelings about P, C & D. (I didn't see your previous post before.) When I think about modalism in terms of UPC, etc., I have no trouble deciding not to purchase their "stuff". Once again, I am frustrated by the fact that Christian retailers don't concern themselves with these "details". I had forgotten about their being pastors of cultic churches. I do see that fact as making a big difference; they are actively and freely representing themselves as mainstream when they KNOW they are not. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1150 Registered: 7-2003 |
As I said, I find nothing wrong with their music (maybe for the reason Chris shared), but it is because I know that if someone went to their website, and I've been told their concerts (never been personally), that there is no doubt about that view, they proclaim it readily from the platform...do I have a greater responsibility? Do we talk to our radio stations about them? We have a great radio station in town. No doubt in my mind they're square orthodox-wise. But I listened to their music for a long time before knowing of this position. I bet most of us did. When have I "endorsed" heresy by listening to (and supporting, I do have several CDs) this group. When does guilt by association apply, I guess the question is. Do we think other Christian artists know about them? Do we hold them accountable for knowing this about them? Should they be speaking up and distancing themselves? I absolutely agree this issue of the trinity is an essential of the faith. So, if other Christian artists associate with them, do we presume something about their doctrine? I guess I'm just wondering how far we take what I do or don't know to associate as "support" of a heretical belief someone may have that I'm not familiar with. And what actions do we take to avoid it and expose it all at the same time? Or do we? Their song about a momma burning the midnight oil down on her knees in prayer for her little boy has moved me many times to pray more diligently for my boys in a way no other song I'm aware of has. It encourages me that prayer has benefits for the boys. But this whole idea of guilt by association just makes me ponder more seriously where I get my encouragement from.... Colleen, what is upc? (besides the bar codes on the back of products ) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1151 Registered: 7-2003 |
BTW, Chris. So nice to hear from you again! Hope things are well for you and yours.... | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1026 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, UPC is the "United Pentacostal Church" (actually I believe the full initials are UPCI for "United Pentacostal Church International"). Here is a short CRI statement on UPCI: IS THE UNITED PENTECOSTAL CHURCH A CHRISTIAN CHURCH? Here's more detailed info from CARM: ONENESS PENTECOSTAL Here's a link to Apologetics Index with many other links (just scroll down): UNITED PENTACOSTAL CHURCH All of these respected sources agree that the UPCI/Oneness movement is a heretical cultic movement. The movement arose out of the Assembly of God (AOG), but much to it's credit, the AOG was the first pronounce this group heretical. I am perhaps a little strong on my stance regarding the UPC due to my personal experience. I use WordSearch 7 as my primary research software (previously Bible Explorer 3.0 before it was bought out). Several outspoken UPC folks have completely taken over and ruined the online forums that you can access through this software. I have attempted many many discussion with them, but to no avail. They have an extremely cultic mentality and are quite convinced that you and I are on the bullet train for hell because we have not been baptized using the correct formula. They are also EXTREMELY dogamtic that if you haven't spoken in tongues you are going to Hell because you are not truly saved. Strangely enough, I've spoken to a couple UPC folks who are very afraid that they are going to Hell as well because they have not yet been given the gift of tongues and they are desperately, fearfully seeking it but can't understand why they haven't been given it. They are terrified. The legalism in the UPC far outstrips anything in Adventism. We might argue about whether we should classify Adventism as a cult or something else, but there's no question with the UPC. It's a straight out, full bore, classic cult. Quite frankly, if I had only two choices and I knew my daughters would grow up and either be SDA or UPC, I would choose SDA in a heart beat, hands down. There are far worse things than Adventism out there. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1153 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, Chris. I had heard the term oneness pentecostal, but not "UPC". I actually think CRI is where I first learned about the modalist framework. It is very strange. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1029 Registered: 7-2003 |
I should probably clarify that I do not know if the churches that PC&D pastor are officially associated with the UPC or not. They very well may not be. However, PC&D are part of the Oneness Pentecostal movement. That movement originated in the AOG and then became the UPC. Although there are independent "churches" that are not directly affiliated with UPC, they have their roots in the same origins and generally share the same theology. So I tend to use the terms Oneness Pentecostalism and UPC almost synonymously even though technically the former refers to a theology and the latter refers to the most visible organization promoting that theology. Chris | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 219 Registered: 6-2001 |
Stan, I'm not sure if you took the comparison to Bob Jones as a compliment But just to clarify. You are now allowed to interracially date as long as you have your parents permission. And I did have a Bible teacher admit to reading other versions in his own home. But you are pretty much right on on the other issues, the drinkintg the dancing the anti-catholicism and such. You said "but all of us who are rejoicing in the gospel of grace cannot in any way affirm that Catholicism or SDA is just another denomination of Christianity." I don't deny that. But I see the people in these churches as being our brothers and sisters in Christ and because of that they should not be ignored or publically put down. Even if they (the denomination not the people) do it, we should not do it back! It is hard to distinguish between the people and the church, and I'm not saying how to do it, but I do know the hateful rhetoric that comes from Bob Jones is not the right answer. I am reminded of the parable of the bet between the sun and the wind as to who was stronger. They decided the one that could make a certain man take his coat off was the strongest. The wind blew fiercely, but that only made the man wrap his coat more tightly around him. Finally the wind gave up. So the sun came out, and of course then the coat came off. What is more likely to lead a Catholic to salvation? Hearing every day that his church is apostate and the Pope is the antichrist? Or going to a large conference with other Christians and learning how to help members in your congregation develop a closer relationship with Jesus? Lovingly, Hannah P.S. Interesting stuff about PCD. I never really knew that much about their background, but one of my favorite songs of theirs is the one comparing Jesus on the cross to the Statue of Liberty. Which seems to be a contradiction from what you are saying. |
