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Message |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 323
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 5:07 am: |     |
Does anyone know of even one person outside of Jesus (Who was certainly much more than a person) who has reached such a state of sinlessness that that person fully and completely loves every person in thought, word and deed, every moment?
Obviously there are many examples of the Holy Spirit transforming believers throughout their lives, in a powerful way. But for some reason, I don't believe it's in God's plan for anyone to reach perfection, even by Pauls' standard posted above, this side of heaven. Otherwise, we'd all be able to see an example or two in our lifetime.
That's why the only thing that saves us is Christ's righteousness--His is the only righteousness that is perfect enough.
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Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 6:03 am: | |
raven--good thought to counterbalance mine--
continue that thought further--perhaps we will never actually be "perfect" in the sense that Jesus is perfect--since He is God.
Perhaps we will, through the ages constantly be growing closer to God's ideal, but never becoming stagnant-because God's ideal is God-likness (after all we are His offspring - John 1:12, Acts 17:28)and He is infinite!
if so, and you consider people who arrive in heaven at different places in their walk/maturation level--heaven could be a rough place for us all to get along unless we have certain attributes in common--certainly the HS will be in common--and He brings unity--and He also brings the fruits--like humility, submission, deferral to the good of another--its much easier to get along with a humble, submissive, serving person than a prideful one---and all those other things i noted in my last post--so these might be the attributes that God brings to us now--so that we can experiece a foretaste of the fellowship and unity of heaven....and then we grow up in Him forever!
I think you also touched off another related point -- the point--whatever perfection is, as we achive it by maturation--it is transparent to us--if we are ever aware of our own perfection--it will turn to rotting pride which puts us right back where we started-maybe only worse off....that means if we intentionlly set out to do someting righteous we are going back in bondage to a pagan religion....that's why i've said that exhorational preaching--which tells us what we need to do in our living--is harmful--it usually leads to paganism--our only hope is to lift up Christ the crucified lamb of God as the substitue for sinners...
righteoussness is something that we are, not that we do...and we are by divine fiat/grace etc.
and please don't misunderstand me, i am not saying we are saved by anything but Grace through Jesus substitionary life and death and imputed to us by faith...this is not a discussion about salvation--my discussion is more like, ok, now that i am ON the glory train--whats the ride gonna be like. How i Got there is about being saved by grace. Questions about the ride is just to satisfy my inquiring mind. no more no less.
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Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 6:10 am: | |
another thought--no i don't know if a single person who always exhibits that love for others--but i think of people who at a critical point in time did so--i am thinking of Jim Elliot, who was martyred in South America by the Auca? indians.
He had a gun but refused to use it--choosing to leave his life in the hands of the sovereign God and the fruit of his death--the entire tribe was converted. (john 15:13)
I am also thinking of people who knew me, who at critical times in my life--shined the love of God into my life that helped me become re-established in Christianity after I left for secular humanism as a college student...
So, we do have one shot, limited examples we can observe the power of God at work in people's lives and see His perfection in limited ways reflected in the lives of His children...A child should have some resemblence to his Father....
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 694
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 7:18 am: | |
I don't believe we will be taken to heaven with whatever "character" we have upon translation or death...this is something Ellen taught.
There will be no sin in heaven...if there was any sin, it wouldn't be the happy perfect place it will be, and God couldn't stand us. (That is one reason I don't believe in the IJ. For angels to be up there "unsure", doubting God, unblieving God and waiting for Him to be vindicated...it would make them "fallen" angels and they wouldn't be in heaven. Unbelief is sin, plain and simple and they would be sinning in God's presence. Therefore this is just one of the many reasons the IJ cannot be true.)
I think we will be changed and made perfect by Christ, perhaps this is what we will be doing while we are waiting for our perfect bodies...learning from him (our heaven orientation process)...so that when He brings us back with Him and we reunite with our perfected bodies, then we are totally perfect and then we get our mansions and crowns, etc.
Just a thought. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 981
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 11:29 am: | |
Pauls, we have perfection right now in Christ. God, in Christ has declared us just as righteous as Christ. We will be changed at the second coming when we receive our resurrection bodies, so worrying about the sanctification is probably not helpful and constiutes the spiritual navel watching we are accustomed to from our SDA days.
You mentioned John Eldredge as an author above, and you are absolutely right about running from anything written by him. He is an open theist, just like Richard Rice in SDA, who believes that God doesn't know everything in the future. Yet Eldridge makes the top 10 most influential authors list of pastors in America.
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2866
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 2:33 pm: | |
Pauls, interesting thoughts.
I've come to believe, though, that, as Stan and Raven have indicated, when we are born from above, we have perfection. We are literally new creatures with God in us. That reality was not possible before the cross.
Since Jesus became sin for us, when we surrender to Him we become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). Notice that it does not say we will assume or take on or achieve or inherit--as some external cloak--the righteousness of God. Rather, we BECOME it. That can only happen by our being IN CHRIST and by the power of the Spirit in us. Once we are born again and in Christ, God never looks at us separately from Jesus.
It's as if I put a piece of paper inside my Bible and close the Bible. That paper is IN my Bible as I am now IN Christ. I can't get to the paper without going first into the Bible.
God doesn't deal with us before first relating to Jesus and accepting His righteousness which now defines me, warts and all.
1 Corinthians 6:11 says, after pointing out the sins of which the Corinthians used to be guilty, "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Our sanctification in God's eyes happens when we are born from above. Then the Holy Spirit continues to discipline and teach us to surrender, and we learn increasingly to submit and allow God's will to be sovereign in our daily lives. Jesus continues to mature us through His Spirit. But as that ongoing matuiry is happening, we ARE perfect before God because we are in Christ.
When our bodies are finally redeemed, we will finally be free from the cravings and weaknesses of our flesh, and we will be able to see as we are seen and know Him as we are known. Our sinful tendencies will be gone. When we are born from above, however, our sin IS gone. Our dead spirits come to life in Jesus, and we already have eternal life. Our "sins" of the flesh are not our intrinsic SIN that causes us to be born dead.
In Christ we have life. IN Christ we have salvation. In Christ we have sanctification.
Colleen |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 441
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 3:15 pm: | |
The worm is perfect and lacking nothing before it is transformed into a butterfly. |
Jan
Registered user
Username: Jan
Post Number: 43
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Colleen-- I don't know if this is a good place for my question, but here goes:
Are there 2 judgments talked about in Revelation 20? One for those who choose to remain under the Law and one for those who have accepted grace? |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 1:56 pm: | |
This might help your ponderance. I enjoyed reading it and found it truthful in my own experience: http://www.macgregorministries.org/cult_groups/religion_salv.html |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2056
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 5:07 pm: | |
Pauls, In your post #43, I don't understand your question. Please, refer to Stan's post # 981. I think his first sentence said it better than I did. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2874
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 10:34 pm: | |
Jan, Judgment on all sin and evil actually happened at the cross. John 12:31-32: "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth,will draw all men to myself." (see also Colossians 2:14-15, Ephesians 2:14, etc.)
Those who accept Jesus and are born from above enter eternal life at that time. God sees them judged in Jesus.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 describes believers facing a judgment for their works. This judgment is not for salvation but for rewards and is often called the "Bemis seat judgment".
The millennium described in the first part of Revelation 20 includes the first resurrection and the co-rule of the righteous with Christ. Many Christians believe the judgment for rewards described in 1 Corinthians 3 determines the role each person will hold in the millennial kingdom. The parables of the talents where the servants who have been faithful over a few things will be made rulers over many things also seems to support this idea.
The great white throne judgment described at the end of Rev. 20 is the time at the end of all time when the wicked are resurrected for hell. According to Revelation 20, this second resurrection of the wicked happens after the millennium.
Actually, the one true judgment happened on the cross. At that time Jesus dealt with sin forever. Satan's power was broken; he was driven out of his "ownership" of the world (John 12:30-32; Colossians 2:14-15). Although the final redemption of mankind is still coming, the claim of sin and its power to hold us in separation from God has been broken.
People are not saved or lost because of their sin. Jesus paid the price for our sin and broke its power. Instead, people are saved or lost depending on what they do with the Sin-Bearer.
Sin is no longer the issue. Jesus is. If we surrender to Him, if we believe in God's promises and allow Him to teach us and change us, we are saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit. If we reject Jesus as the Pharisees did, if we deliberately turn our backs on God and His promises and refuse to respond to His revelation of Himself, we are lost.
Sin completely condemned us. We had no power over it. Jesus broke its power and made it possible for us to live in freedom. Because Jesus passed judgment on Satan and sin and disarmed both, sin is not the issue we must deal with. We must deal with the Sin-Bearer. Judgment is complete. We are only waiting for our final rewards: the righteous for their rewards in Christ's kingdom, and the wicked for their final sentence.
Praise God for Jesus!
Colleen |
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