| Author | Message | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi, yesterday we had our biblestudy and again it was a very interesting evening. The setting is 3 to 1 (3 SDAs and me) :-) We started to study Romans, and I realised very soon that they consider Pauls writings less important. So I started explaining that his writings are also the Word of God (Gal 1) and I think we woulnd't be able to really understand the gospel without his writings. Anyway, we had a good study but to my surprise the 'leader' of the group stated in the end that Paul could easily have said everything in a few sentences so he didn't understand why Paul made everything so difficult. He suggested to finish with Romans (btw, we only did chapter 1:1-5) because we know the gospel already and that we start next time with Revelations! "That's a different story!" he said, as if that's the most crucial part of the bible. He came (again) with some verses where it talks about "...the ones who follow Jesus and keep His commands". You all know which verses I mean 'cause I can't just recall the right places now. Two questions I have: 1) Why does they always state that this verses in revelations means that we have to keep the ten commandments? Is there a real basic to assume that this means that we should keep the ten commandments? I asked him but he didn't really gave me clear answer. (It's also strange to me that they always seperate the ten from the rest) 2) Is this common among SDAs that they try to 'ignore' Pauls letters? I refused a study on Revelations because I know he'll beat me with all kind of statements where I probably won't have an answer to, simply because I never really studied Revelations (not because I'm not interrested in it but just because for now I'm more concerned about the heart of the gospel and less about what will happen in time. There are so many different interpretations anyway). I can understand you people hear those questions all over again, but you also know how hard it is in discussions with SDAs, and that's why I keep on asking those questions. thanks again, Willy | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 479 Registered: 6-2002 |
Let us start with one verse:
This verse happens to be the very last sentence in the entire book of Leviticus. It is a conclusion, a "sign off," a summary description for the entire book of Leviticus. It is saying, "This entire book (Leviticus) contains commandments given to Moses by GOD when Moses was on Sinai." Now, if you read the entire book, you will not see the Ten Commandments repeated. So, very certainly, we see that there are many, many instructions from God, that qualify as commandments that are not in the Ten Commandments. Interestingly, there are some scattered references to the "big Ten," such as naming the weekly seventh-day Sabbath as one of the Feast Days. The point is that whenever SDAs see the word "commandment" they ASSUME that the Bible must always mean the Ten Commandments. They also interpret that "the spirit of prophecy" is Ellen Gould White, when there is no scriptural evidence for any other than the Holy Spirit. As for Paul. Difficult?!? Oh Puh-lease!!! Of course, if you fight what Paul is saying plainly, you have a BIG fight on your hands. If, on the other hand, you just read, listen, ponder, and pray, what Paul says is so simple . . . and so very against much of what SDAs preach (where there doctrine is unique or unorthodox). It is like saying, "Stupid math!!! Who needs it anyway!!!" While some find math and Paul more difficult than others, they are both needed, both deep, and both available at whatever level you need them. If all you use is "add, subtract, multipy, and divide" then that can work for you. If you need to understand the physical properties of alloys under stress, or failure probability in manufacturing, then math can work for you there as well. It is more a matter of SDAs not liking what they read than Paul being so difficult. | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi Jerry, well, I almost hoped that you'd give me this answer. I also asked him how he could be so certain that in those verses the Ten Commandments were meant. Ofcourse he didn't know, but "it just is" he said. Point. Now I see again that E.White is the cause of such thinking. When I start thinking now about our study yesterday than I have mixed feelings...it was good in certain way because we could openly talk about our different views, but on the other hand, now I think about it, he made statements that really make no sense at all... "the burden that our fathers couldn't bear" in Acts 15 refers to the physical pain man feels when he's circumcised, and that's the reason why it wasn't a law anymore for the gentiles, but this has nothing to do with the other Laws that should be kept" he said to me with a very serious tone. I've read hundreds of books about all kind of topics, views, etc..., but this the first time I hear someone saying things like this, thinking he's got it all right... It makes me sad, really sad... | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2005 |
anytime anyone thinks they absolutely for sure got anything completely right--they should beware---probably got it wrong. knowledge puffs up and pride goes before a fall...we all now see as through a glass darkly | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 310 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, we do see through a glass darkly and I believe that's a big reason there are so many differences of opinion within the Body of Christ. However, the one doctrinal point the Bible is crystal clear about, is the most important one: over and over again throughout the New Testament, salvation = believing in Jesus. (Obviously I mean a belief that is placing our trust and faith in Jesus' finished work on the cross, not a casual intellectual assent that Jesus is God.) I think that's why Paul said in I Corinthians 2:2 that he desires to know nothing more than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I just wanted to make it clear that if anyone quibbles over what else is required for salvation, we can know that point is not disputable even though we "see through a glass darkly"--the Bible is clear it is only "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2005 |
Amen Raven! Amen. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 373 Registered: 7-2000 |
Williamjr, you're not going to get anywhere studying with these SDA's without coming to grips with the issues of the inspiration of the Bible and hermaneutics. Adventism is a cult and like every cult out there, they have adopted an approach to the Bible that allows them to be in conformity with their real source of authority--in this case E.G. White. So, without dealing with these root issues all you will be doing is talking past each other. As for the word 'commandment' in Revelation, John is consistent in using two words. He uses 'nomos' for the Ten Commandments in his gospel, and 'entole' for commandments in his letters and Revelation. Different word, different subject. That won't help you though as SDA's believe in 'thought inspiration' in which the words aren't important---unless of course, they want them to be! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2785 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amen, Raven--and Loneviking, you are absolutely right. Willy, many Adventnists avoid Paul's writings saying they "are difficult to understand". Many--especially, it seems, in countires other than North America (but even here as well) consider Paul "less inspired" or maybe not even really paart of Scripture. (I've seen this attitude also from Adventists in Spain--now Romania--) Peter is clear in 2 Peter 3:16 that he considered Paul's writing to be Scripture. (This is also the passage Adventists use to excuse themselves from reading Paul because he is "difficult to understand". They lift that phrase right out of the context in which Peter is insisting that people must take Paul seriously, without distortion, as they do other Scriptures.) The real problem in studying with Adventists is, as Loneviking has said, that they do not see the Bible as the reliable, inerrant word of God. They consider it and Ellen White to be inspired the same way. Since Ellen made mistakes they have had to ignore and edit out of her books, so they assume they can equally edit and ignore the Bible when something contradicts their theology. Although they publicly insist they base their beliefs on the Bible alone (and quote proof-texts to support their claims), in reality they interpret the Bible by Ellen White's commentary. SHE is their bottom line authority, not Scripture. You will, indeed, just talk past each other unless you can agree on the same foundational prinicple: you are dealing with the Bible as the inerrant, inspired word of God, and anything it reveals is authoritative over all other sources. They avoid Romans because they cannot reconcile it with their religion. If they read Romans, they would have to interpret Revelation differently than they do. They want to suck you into Revelation without laying a gospel foundation from the most careful and complete theological treatise in the Bible. Without a firm foundation in the gospel, Revelation is confusing and easily misinterpreted. Everything must be read from an understanding of Jesus, His sacrifice, resurrection, and ascension, and His fulfillment of all God's promises. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 217 Registered: 6-2001  |
In defense of Paul ... Paul's letters to the church are the best reference we have to how Christians are supposed to live and how the church is supposed to operate. How is that less important than Revelations? To me, Revelations is just there as a reminder that (1) the world is going to end. (2) God knows how its going to end. (3) It's going to have a happy ending so we don't have to worry about it. Practically, Hannah | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Colleen, You are absolutely right! Romans (especially), Galations, Ephesians, and many aspects of Corinthians do not reconcile with the SDA's so called "message". Also, how do SDA's explain the fact that there is no record of anyone keeping the "sabbath" before Moses was given the "Law" on Mount Sinai?? (See Deut. 5)I attended an SDA high school (Lynwood Academy), and when questions would come up in Bible class in regards to aspects of the SDA "message" conflicting with the writings of Paul, we were always told that the only time we should read the writings of the Apostle Paul was only in conjunction with the "Sabbath School Lesson", because Paul was to difficult to understand. Of course we all know that the writings and teachings of Paul, are as "plain as daylight". Even now, when I speak to friends and family that are still SDA, they will tell me that I "misinterpret" the writings of Paul. My dad who is still strict SDA even brought me a brand new bible (New King James version) for my birthday because he thought my Bible (New Living Translation) was WRONG. Isn't that amazing! In other words..."Your Bible does not agree with my beliefs...so your Bible must be WRONG...Let me buy you a Bible who's translation is more intuned to what I believe...! Amazing. SDA's will go to any lengths...:-O! Anyway, the New King James version that he brought me is a wonderful study Bible, and it says basically the same thing as my New Living translation  . So, Willy, you cannot win with SDA's. No matter how many Bible studies you have with them, In their minds, you are wrong because you are either misinterpreting the Bible... or, you are "confused" or being "mislead"(according to them)Also, when I was in High School, I always wondered why If SDA's had the "truth", why didn't God give the truth to the Jesus, his disciples, the apostles, and the other church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Papias, Justin Martyr, etc before Ellen G. White. Why in the world did God wait until 1860 (beginning of the SDA movement) to give man the "truth"?? None of this ever made sense to me! I knew by the time a graduated from High School that my SDA days were numbered. I just took me 30 more years to get the courage to finally leave... --Valerie | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2005 |
Valerie, I know (and experience) it's hard to convince them...I actually think (well I don't think, I'm sure) it's not possible without Gods help. I'll take my conclusions sooner or later whether to continue with the biblestudy group or not, but I still give it a try. I feel so sad to see those people proclaiming and believing things that are not right and most of them without really knowing. It looks like they are almost 'brainwashed', tought how to read the Bible without questioning what they read. If I didn't meet my girlfriend who appeared to be a SDA, I probably never got in touch with them because in Belgium there are not that much SDA (well, other christians either btw). Maybe you people think I'm a fool because I try to 'discuss' with them but I have to try it for the sake of my girlfriend. It's all new to me so that's the reason I keep on asking those questions but I'm thankfull that I found this forum because all the advise and experience I find here is really very well appreciated by me! And like Colleen mentioned once, it's also a blessing for myself because I've got to research all those things and by reading the Bible more than ever (and deeper) I'll hope I'll will be growing too to have a real strong foundation! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2790 Registered: 12-2003 |
Willy, we're glad you found us, too! Keep coming and "talking" with us. God will direct you as you study, and He will help you to know if and when you need to stop. He is faithful. I've no doubt He is using you to bring the Bible into focus before these people you're studying with--just remember that whatever they decide to do with the Bible and their Adventism is in no way your "fault". You're right--they are brainwashed. Many here have commented on that phenomenon over the years. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 334 Registered: 7-2004  |
Willy, I don't think any of us would think of you as a fool at all. Most of us know first hand how frustrating it is try and study with someone who wants to avoid what the text says and move along to their own pet ideas. Our comments can probably be more correctly understood as providing warnings of the actions you are likely to see as you try to study with SDAs. We are praying that God uses your insistence on His Word as a seed that can take root in their hearts and minds. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1145 Registered: 7-2003  |
And they don't take too well to being told their brainwashed. I'd avoid that one if you want to keep it a respectable conversation. B still gets mad that I think he's brainwashed, though I haven't said so but one time in 6 years. It was a conversation that really stuck....unlike most others..... | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 716 Registered: 7-2004 |
Last spring I participated in an in-depth study of Romans, and my appreciation of the writing skills of Paul are extremely high. Paul spent the first portion of the book making it clear that we are in a human state -- fallen, lost, and without excuse because the earth and the heavens around us shout that there is a loving, creator God. It is from Romans that we get the statement that "the wages of sin is death." When, in Romans, Paul says that God had given mankind over to his sins and lusts, you are I are in that lump of mankind. There is no us vs. them in that statement because without Jesus we are beyond hope. Unredeemed mankind is LOST. Paul does his very best to paint a very stark picture of our condition without Jesus. He then breaks the tone with the statement from Romans 3:20 that says that by the works of the law shall no flesh be made righteous. Let that statement sink in and fester for a while. The rest of the Book of Romans is about the way being made for helpless, hopeless mankind by the generosity of Jesus Christ through his very own blood, how he took upon himself our sin, our degradation, our evil intentions, our selfishness, and made a way for us to escape that ghetto mentality. So far we have done nothing. In fact we can DO nothing. We aren't strong enough, and we don't have the right capital or payment. We have all been saved by "The Faith of Jesus." That means that our faith isn't even called into play unless we exhibit the same kind of trust for what Jesus has done for us as Jesus showed in The Father when he went obediently to the cross, trusting The Father to raise him on the third day. That takes us back to the statement of faith made by Job when he said, "Tho He slay me, yet will I trust Him." Once again I was brought to the realization that any efforts I might make are laughably pitiful. Jesus needs me to surrender to His completed work of redemption, and stand in the place he has assigned me to stand. By standing, I become nothing more than a signpost, but I don't even get to decide where I will stand. He plants me, and I must surrender to his will with regard to how effective my witness turns out to be. Some signs are planted in busy places, some stand on lonely country roads where only a few will ever see them. Signs do their work by standing where they are planted, and pointing in the direction they were planted in. All I can say is that Jesus has promised me salvation as a now thing, and has promised that I will never fall from his hand, where the Father has placed me from the foundation of the world. Knowing that to be my condition from now until the end of eternity (oxymoron), I feel really secure. I pray that my amen of the completed work of Jesus is a worthy sign for those who need to see it so they can find their way by the effectiveness of that witness. A sign facing the wrong way is worse than no sign at all! | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2005  |
Valerie, you mentioned wondering why it took so long for the "truth" to get out. I was a little late coming up with that same question, at least consiously. Since then, I have have often wondered, if God is so almighty poweful, why would his church be so secretive and so small? I remember well that there was supposedly some sort of lineage of the remnant church. I'll never forget EGW's vivid imagery of the persecution and martyrdom of this "elect" lineage. (I swear, "elect" was probably her favorite word!!!) "Apocalypse Now" takes on a whole new meaning when you think of certain religions, such as SDA. The focus is so much more on the end times, and on whatever almost cabalistic rituals need to be followed in order to survive it. Instead, the focus, obviously, should be on everyday life and salvific issues. I'm not knocking Masons (heck, I know next to nothing about them), but it's interesting to compare the concept of degreees to the SDA church. You're got your lower degrees of SDA, where you're not expected to know very much. Indeed, you're not to question the edicts and sayings of the higher degrees. And so on, it goes right on up the ladder, all the way to the innermost, highest 333rd degree (I'll say it again, jokingly) of EGW. (I especially like the 333, because it's half of 666. Ok, I'm probably just amusing myself.) I don't mean to sound bitter, controversial, or mean-spirited. I just get exasperated sometimes in asking the question, "How could you not see?!?" -Tom | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2794 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tom, we were all in that "could not see" boat. It was a spiritual blindness, the veil mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3. We can all thank God for bringing us to a point where we could begin to see. Colleen | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 99 Registered: 1-2005 |
Colleen, I completely agree with you. What fascinates me is this, why do some come to see, and others don't? -Tom | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 313 Registered: 7-2004 |
Belva, I love your signpost illustration! | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 287 Registered: 2-2001 |
Being an accountant and having to deal with IRS regulations etc, I look for definitions of specific words or phrases, as without definitions in context you can get yourself sued real fast. When I studied the keep my commandments verse I looked for a definition in the Bible--guess what it was there!! 1 John 3:23-24 "This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abide in Him, an He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2802 Registered: 12-2003 |
Violet, you're right! Thanks for sharing that. Colleen | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 83 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thankfully, It is not our "job" to interpret the scriptures! The bible is so clear that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. We need to read and study yes! But the spiritual understanding comes from the Holy Spirit and is spiritually discerned. Valerie, Im a big picture thinker too! Those questions always bother me. Ive heard of the "veil being removed" referencing 2 Cor 3. and the old covenant. I wondered if that was so important, why was there only one text quoted to support the idea? Well of course there are many more that talk about the Holy Sprit. John 3:3 Unless a man is born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God...the Spirit gives bith to spirit.(Nicodemus and the great teachers, members of the ruling council didnt GET IT, without the Holy Spirit) John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of TRUTH. The would cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.....v26--But the counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things... (the disciples didnt GET IT with out the Holy Spirit) 1 Cor 2:10..but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.The Spirit searches all things, even the deep thing of God.......The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and HE CANNOT understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Why oh why, has the Holy Spirit been so discounted in my experience, in my church? (SDA). Why are we afraid of "too much" of the spirit. How can we study and understand without the guidance of the Holy Spirit?? Why would we want to even try, knowing the impossibility so cleary stated by Jesus!.... A colleague told me the other day, that she had noticed a big differnce in me since February. She stated that it was as if someone had opened the blinds!!! , a darkness and light difference, and she noticed a new light in my eyes, and a brighter countenance! This was an awesome confirmation for me, I had not mentioned the idea or the "veil being lifted" to her, but could not help but notice the similarity. I've begun to talk to some people regarding what I have been studying under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, mostly, they just dont get what the big deal is all about. One offered to study EGW with me. Others argured, most avoided. Im ok with all that. God's timing is God's timing, and I have a lot to learn...Im just blown away by the simplicity of the Gospel. Indeed Good News! JavaGirl | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 210 Registered: 2-2005 |
JavaGirl, you are so right about being led into truth by the Holy Spirit. The role of the Holy Spirit was never clear to me while an SDA. It wasn't something that was discussed with any regularity in my 19 years in the Adventist educational system or in sermons at church. It always seemed like this mysterious thing that you could ask to help you once in a while when you needed it, but then it got blurry from there, at least for me. Maybe I'm an isolated case but somehow I doubt it. As far as letting the Holy Spirit dwell in you and lead your life, why would you need that when you have the Law to govern all of your actions? Maybe the vagueness I encountered growing up, in relation to the HS, was due to the fact that most SDA's just don't understand it themselves. However, since leaving the SDA church earlier this year, my wife and I are discovering the reality of the Holy Spirit for the very first time for either of us and His leading in our lives this year has been unmistakable. As an aside, and I don't know if this is amusing or just plain sad, but I had this discussion about the Holy Spirit with one of my closest SDA relatives recently. When I told her that we've been experiencing the Holy Spirit for the first time this year, her reply was barked back at me, "The Sabbath School quarterly just covered this not that long ago! Weren't you listening at all?!!!" Heretic | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2809 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think one of the reason SDAs don't "get" the Holy Spirit is an outgrowth of their belief that humans have no spirit except their breath. What on earth would the "new birth" be if one has only a body and breath? They say that the Holy Spirit is perceived by the mind, the intellect--I've even read articles in the Review urging people to keep their kids in SDA schools because an educated mind is the way to preceive the Holy Spirit. Other publications urge "the health nessage" because a healthy mind and body are the way to perceive the Holy Spirit. (Where does that leave people with chronic diseases?) Yet 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 counter these ideas. In other words, if a person focuses on keeping her body healthy, she will then have the wisdom and ability to know God's will because her receptors will be alert. Further, without an understanding of the gospel, of the necessity of total surrender to a Person and the giving up of every good work and belief for the sake of trusting only Him, a person isn't open to being born again. Consequently, most Adventists have no real experience with the Holy Spirit. They have no idea how He would function inside them, and they aren't surrendering their cherished idols in order to make room for Him. Of course, many people besides Adventists fail to surender their idols, too. It's just that in this thread, we're discussing the SDA phenomenon. Colleen | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 85 Registered: 6-2005 |
Heretic, it seems both amusing and sad, i agree. Jesus, "covered" the issue of the Holy Spirit (A little more weight here than the Sabbath School Quaterly) many times, but the ones around Him didnt comprehend before the promised gift of the Spirit. I can count on my fingers the times in my life growing up adventist that I experienced the type of awareness of the presence of the Holy Spirit that I now appreciate on a daily basis. I had the knowledge, but not the experience, or the experience didnt last! And the goal of the presence of the Holy Sprit was sadly perceived as a means to produce self-righteousness. It all gets warped! The new birth experience is also downplayed in Adventism, but thats another thread... Guess we dont want to look like Baptist's or Charismatics! Praise God that I am discovering this new way of living. You are blessed to share this journey with your wife. Its frustrating to try to share this experience with others, but I know that actions will speak when words sometimes cannot. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2005 |
Javagirl, I completely relate to what you said about not feeling the Holy Spirit growing up. I felt dead inside, spiritually. I remember trying to "wrestle with God" to force him to show me a sign of His existence, anything, anything at all to substantiate the walk with Him, and my need for Him. Then I would feel terribly guilty for my lack of faith. It was all rather warped, to say the least. Tom | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2004 |
Weimarred, I second that feeling! I pleaded with God to show me something so I could have peace! It was a horrible feeling of dread for the end of time as I knew I was not perfect. It was a feeling of continuous guilt and knowing I wasn't living up to "all the light I was shown" which meant I would have to become like the "weird" adventists. Speaking of them, did you go to Weimar? That is self-supporting right? I had a very close friend whose parents shipped her off to a self-supporting place in Florida. I went to visit her once and it was horrifying. For sports they had to wear jeans UNDER long knee length skirts. They ate vegan and it was disgusting food. They listened to tapes about the time of trouble for HOURS in the evenings. I don't remember the name of the place, but it stuck in my mind how abusive it was. I hope she is not seriously messed up after that, I lost track of her. But as a young person, it seemed like the more "weird" you were into adventism the closer you were to being like EGW. And being like her was the only way to be saved. The problem was I had no desire to be like her! | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 110 Registered: 1-2005 |
Bb, Weimar left me with mixed feelings. It was was somewhtat similar to that place in Florida, especially with the vegan food. On the other hand, I think Weimar was in the 80s what other places like MBA were like in, say, the 50s. In other words, a little more conservative than what MBA has since become. Weimar was a little more main stream than other self-supporting places, hike Heartland, for example. I think some self-supporting places attach themsleves to a particular person, almost as if that person were the spiritual heir of EGW. That didn't happen at Weimar, thank God! Regardless, we were a pretty tight-knit group of kids, growing up. That was pretty special, whatever the environment may have been. That made it easier. -Tom |
