| Author | Message | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi, I read so much on this forum and to be honest, I get a little frustrated. Last night I had a bible study with a SDA (Like I mentioned in a previous topic : here in Belgium it seems to be more liberal than in the States, comparing to what I read on this forum). Anyway, in the end we discussed Sabbath, food-law, etc...and it appears to me that those people are really sincere in what they're doing. One guy said that it's a honor for him to keep he sabbath, not a burden or so, but as an expression of love towards God. There I was sitting, didn't know what to answer, because this guy was really sincere and showed a great passion for God (more than mine I have to admit). He also said that the ten commands where an expression how we should love God. Sorry, maybe I don't get it, but why are so many of you (according to what I read here on this forum) experiencing 'freedom in Christ' after you leave the SDA church?? Again, I really don't get the impression that those SDA people here in Belgium are walking under a heavy yoke or something...not at all, they're really 'proud' and sincere that they can show their love to God by holding the sabbath in obedience. Strange, but most of them are really happy with it...and that's different from the stories I read here. It confuses me so much... | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 82 Registered: 3-2005 |
Willy, I would have never told you while inside the church that the Sabbath was any kind of a burden. I LOVED SABBATH (other then the stress of getting things just right and unable to). But the PROUD word you used to describe SDA's is where it's all at. It has to do with placing Sabbath and what we do in a place of honor in our hearts that only belongs to JESUS. You will have to dig through the scriptures, especially Hebrews and Romans. Take your time. Let the Lord show you a little at a time. Freedom is found when we realize how utterly DESPERATE we are in our sin, and all the false pride of keeping the law for the sake of Christ is joke when realize that we have NOTHING to offer Christ. That's why JESUS HAS BECOME OUR SABBATH. I will pray for you. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2005 |
I've been adventist for more than 15 years and I'm sure many people here have for a lifetime. I was sincere, I didn't know I was brainwashed. It is full of love talk and has all of the answers. However, the core beliefs of this church are well hidden beneath layers of scripture that is pulled out of context in so many places. The bottom line is this church teaches the Sabbath will keep you out of hell, maybe, but you have to keep it anyway no matter what. All other churches are bad and if you leave this church once you know the doctrine, you will go to hell. Leave the Adventist church and go to a Lutheran, Baptist Church, any other church than the Adventist Church and you belong to the beast. You will go to hell. If you want to stick around for a while and do some bible studies, you will learn this. You will be so educated, because that is all you can do on the Sabbath. The word is twisted. True salvation is through Christ, not a church. Every question you have will be answered when you are there. I'm a new former adventist and am grateful for this forum. I was deceived by the church like many here. When you are violated you sometimes become angry. True salvation is not a game, it is what Christ died for so that we can live, not so that we could keep the fourth commandment to be saved. This is a satanic church that is a cult. You might find http://www.sdaoutreach.org/ helpful. He is a former adventist pastor. The church teaches the bible through the visions of EG White, not the bible. | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2000 |
Your observations about your friends, the Adventists, are very familiar. Their explanation about Sabbathkeeping--to show love for God--is a common mantra. Many of us formers, have uttered those words in times past. Sabbath days were enjoyable at times, but as we look back, we see how looney we were. It was empty. The missing ingredient? Christ, our Lord and Savior. Physical rest, not spiritual rest. I wouldn't envy or be intimdated by your friend's passion. "Zeal without knowledge is like a runaway horse." Ask your friends the follow questions: Who and what Jesus Christ is to them? Do they trust HIm alone, for their salvation? Is their Rest in Christ,or the Sabbath? How do they reconcile the letter Paul wrote the Galatians, with the commandments or the SDA teachings? Do they believe in the unity of the faith? Is the church of Jesus Christ composed of all believers Who place their faith in Him? Can they tranfer their church membership to another christian denomination? Is the SDA organization the church (Remnant), called out ones, with a special message to the world in these last days? Be not deceived. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1020 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hi William, I'm assunming from your post that you are not SDA. If I am correct then you should know that the information you receive will likely vary depending on whether the person you are speaking with is a current SDA or a former SDA. Speaking as someone who was born and raised SDA and went to SDA schools 1st grade through grad school (including 4 years in a SDA boarding academy) I can tell you with some authority that what a current SDA will say to a ěNon-Adventistî (also referred to as ěBabyloniansî, ěPhilistinesî, and ěSunday-Keepersî) is far different than what they will say to another Adventist. Itís a cultural thing. I learned very early to adapt my speech depending on if I was talking to an Adventist or non-Adventist. It wasnít something I did to be sneaky per se. Itís just part of the SDA culture. Let me give you a few examples from some of the hot button SDA issues: Any current SDA you ask will automatically tell you that Ellen White (EGW) is not a big deal and that what they believe is based on the Bible and the Bible alone. Sounds good, but thatís not the real story, thatís just what outsiders are told. Adventism as a system cannot exist without EGW and her doctrines. Belief in EGW is woven into the SDA 28 fundamentals and is also part of the baptismal vows that every SDA must sign before receiving baptism. Adventists will sometimes try to deny this as well, but you merely need to ask them who ěthe Spirit of Prophecyî in their fundamentals and in their baptismal vows refers to. SDAs believe that the ěSpirit of Prophecyî, as mentioned in Revelation, is EGW and that the ětestimony of Jesusî refers to her writings called ěThe Testimoniesî. SDAs believe that EGW is as inspired as any Bible writer and is inspired in the same way as any Bible writer. Although they will sometimes say that she is ěthe lesser light pointing to the greater lightî, in reality her writings are absolutely authoritative (as declared by Jan Paulsen General Conference President) and are used for the interpretation of scripture. So if EGW says something and you interpret the scripture in any other way, then your interpretation is invalid. Therefore EGW is functionally placed above the scripture as an inspired and authoritative interpreter of scripture. As to diet, EGW wrote much about diet and made it clear that you cannot be connected to God or have your prayers heard if you are not adhering to the dietary rules she taught. Abstinence from ěunclean foodsî is part of the baptismal vows SDAs must sign. You cannot be a SDA in good standing and eat pork or shrimp. Some SDAs will eat ěclean meatsî, but EGW made it clear that they cannot be translated (SDA speak for a post-trib rapture) as long as they are eating meat. The Sabbath is a huge subject. Nearly any current SDA you ask will give the standard company line on this when speaking to an outsider. They will say something like this: ěThe Sabbath isnít a salvation issue, but I keep it to be obedient to God.î In reality, itís very much a salvation issue. Ask them if they personally could choose to quit keeping Saturday Sabbath right now and still have assurance of salvation. SDAs teach that the ěseal of Godî is Saturday Sabbath observance and the ěMark of the Beastî is Sunday worship. One day this will become THE ISSUE that will divide Godís people from all others. Each person will either receive the Mark of the Beast by continuing to worship on the counterfeit day or they will be sealed by God by displaying their obedience in Sabbath worship. The SDA mission in these end-times is to call ěnominal-Christiansî out of Babylon (ěSunday-keeping churchesî) before Godís wrath is poured out on Sunday-keepers. At this time the Sunday-keepers of the world will unite to put Sabbath-keepers to death. Sabbath-keepers will have to flee to the mountains and endure a terrible tribulation at the hands of Sunday-keepers. After ěthe time of troubleî Jesus will return to save the Sabbath keepers and annialate the Sunday keepers. So yes, itís ultimately a salvation issue, at least once you ěhave the truthî. SDAs will allow that some who have gone before will be saved even in their ignorance, but you cannot have the Sabbath truth and then leave it and still be saved nor can you pass through the last days when the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue will be made plain and be saved if you are not a Sabbath keeper. I can pretty much guarantee that most any SDA would not want to admit any of this to an outsider and would even deny it. Iíve done it many times and been very convincing about it. The idea is that you ěmeet people where theyíre atî and ěgive them the truth that theyíre ready forî. You can give them deeper truth later on once theyíve accepted some of ěTHE TRUTHî. All of this is well documented, but the average SDA is loath to admit it. I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you great wisdom, insight, and empathy as you have the opportunity to witness to this individual. In Christ, Chris Lee Lincoln, NE | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2762 Registered: 12-2003  |
Willy, I'm glad you're coming back with your questions. I can completely understand your confusion. The answers above are 100% true. Adventists will tell you that we are "disgruntled" or "angry" or "hurt" and are misrepresenting the church. I tell you the truth: we are not angry nor disgruntled nor hurt. We are praising God for releasing us from a deceptive religion that taught us to rationalize instead of hold onto truth. Chris's post is completely true: Adventists will NOT tell you all they know or believe. They will NOT tell you that to them, Sabbath is a salvation issue. They will not tell you that they could never give it up and worship on another day because to give it up would mean they would be lost. Have you read any of the information on sdaoutreach.org? Or EllenWhite.org? Until you understand the true role of Ellen White, you will not understand where Adventists are coming from in their doctrines. They create wonderful, evangelical-sounding explanations for their beliefs, and they deceive much of the Christian world. But they are not telling you the whole truth. They do not believe they are lying; they are deceived themselves. They believe it is OK to convince you of their position using only part of the truth. Praying for you, Willy. Colleen | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thanks again for the replies! I just read an article someone here on the forum linked me to. It written by a certain D.M Canright and he states that "...their power lies in their unbounded faith in 'their' message, not in any thruth they teach.Evident sincerity, clean lives, great zeal an positive assertions win people regardless of whether or not their doctrines are reasonable and Scriptual." That's seems 100% to be true and according to my little experience with them I can say "amen" to that! Now, I decided to have with those people a weekly bible study and one of them(who is an "important" person in their church and used to be an elder too)suggested to start with lessons that the SDA church publishes. I refused because we agreed on bible study, not on "SDA study". Next he suggested to study the books Daniel and Revelation but according to what I already know about them I refused again because to what I know that's one of their fads (right?). I suggested to study the letter of Romans and I couldn't believe it when he said that he actually hardly haven't read books of the apostle Paul....How can he have a clear understanding of the Gospel if he hardly reads the NT and more specific the letters of Paul???? He said the 4 Gospels are enough and the OT. In the end we all agreed to study Romans. Pray for me for wisdom, I'll need it desperately! He also quoted a few verses from the book of revelations where is written about the ones who follow Jesus and keep Gods commandments to show me the relevancy of the Ten commandments. When I asked or he could show me that this text was talking about the Ten commandments I felt I had asked something sensitive 'cause he suddenly started to lashing out to all those 'sunday-keepers' who don't know anything about real sabbath-keeping. Ooops...a little later our bible study was over. He made the final comment that the Ten commandments are VERY important because according to Revelation 11:19 soon the Arc of the Covenant will show up and in it the stones with the Ten commandments written on will show their importance. Suggestions on how to study Romans with SDA are more that welcome because you people are more aware of the traps. Thanks, Willy | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 472 Registered: 6-2002 |
I must warn you, Willy, this is a "lose-or-lose" situation. The only reason they are including you in this "study" is to steer you towards their standard messages. Only if you could prepare a study and lead it yourself would it be edifying for you. However, it is unlikely this will happen. Even if it does, it is unlikely many will be listening. Perhaps the only way you might salvage this is to suggest that the Book be read aloud without any comments. again, not likely. Well, pray about it. Let us know what happens. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1021 Registered: 7-2003 |
Willy, in my experience there is only one text in Romans that SDAs will want to dwell on. They love to quote Romans 3:31: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." They are likely to minimize the entire rest of the book of Romans (not to mention the context of this verse), and focus exclusively on the so-called "fact" that Romans tells you in black and white to uphold the Law. SDAs can be suprisingly myopic when their long held beliefs are at stake. I know I was. I would be very sure going in that you thoroughly understand Rom. 3:31 because it's the one they will want to spend the most time on. Chris | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 286 Registered: 2-2001 |
Chris, Thank you for your post. The explaination is very clear and to the point. With your permission I would like to copy it and give it to my Sunday School teacher so that he can better understand. V | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1022 Registered: 7-2003 |
Absolutely Violet. Feel free to use it. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2767 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with Jerry and Chris above. The best hope you have of making headway in Romans with them is to read it IN CONTEXT one chapter at a time, taking all the time you need after reading the chapter to pursue the marginal references to other places where the same words/ideas are also discussed. Context, context, context--that is what Adventists lack and what they most fear. They will say, "But you have to read the WHOLE Bible; you can't just take a passage in one place and draw a conclusion." (They accuse us of their own deepest flaw.) When they say that, they actually mean that the context confuses them, and they want to connect what they're reading with their other proof texts which are further taken out of context. Willy, if you actually study the Bible with them, praying as you do for the Holy Spirit to teach you and to protect your mind and heart from deception and confusion, you will gradually begin to understand "Adventist-think". My experience is that the non-SDA Christians who have actually involved themselves in Bible study with Adventists are the only ones who have a clue what's really wrong with Adventism. There are a couple of physicians in our church who went to Loma Linda Medical School, and from the time they were in med school, they were actively involved in Bible studies with SDAs. There are several other physicians in our church who did residencies or otherwise attended Loma Linda, but those who actually studied the Bible with Adventists are the only ones I personally know who "get it". Many of the others try to convince us that we are being divisive and too harsh. Those who studied the Bible with them support us 100% and see it as we see it. It will be crucial, however, for you to be in prayer and completely open to the Holy Spirit. Those with whom you study may or may not be awakened to truth; pray that they will be. You, however, will certainly grow in your own delight in Scripture and in your understanding of the subtle but powerful heresy of "another gospel". Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 328 Registered: 7-2004  |
Just as Colleen says. Insist on going verse by verse, chapter by chapter through the study. Read the section of Scripture aloud together and discuss what that passage says. Avoid the trap of allowing them to continually jump to another text to "explain what Paul really means". Read what is says there! I would also suggest a translation where the meaning isn't obscured by the archaic language--use something like the NASB, NIV, or NKJV. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 950 Registered: 3-2005 |
That is excellent advice from everyone, and I can't add anything to it, but I do have to put in this plug for the FAF Bible studies that are going on that do in depth study. For example our group took six months of Fri. nights just to go through Romans 9, and it was one of the most rewarding experiences I have ever had. This is a difficult chapter, but it was so rewarding to go through the OT and other relevant NT passages and study God's sovereignty through history. I can guarantee you that an SDA Romans study probably would skip Romans 9, or skip over the implications of it , and put their Great Controversy spin on it. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2004 |
Our Bible Study/Fellowship group may be moving along a little more quickly than that, but even then we have spent 2 and half months (over 20 hours of group study time) to finish the first 3 chapters of Romans. And nothing in these chapters is nearly as contentious as Chapter 9! However, we did spend over an hour on Rom 3:25 and nearly two on Rom 1:17. And this wasn't the speculative conversation barely related to the content of the texts that we were so used to within SDA studies, this was time spent with word meanings, other uses of the words in Scripture, cross referenced citations. Studying like this as a group is very rewarding. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 125 Registered: 4-2005 |
I don't want to be a wet blanket here, however I have come to seriously doubt any positive outcome ~ meaning arriving at truth ~ from any Bible study where the atmosphere is one of trying to prove something to someone who is set in their belief while their attitude is totally a defensive one; and then, like "ping-pong" reversing those roles. If the motive is to convince the other party to believe in my convictions, my beliefs when that other party is not honestly seeking for truth themselves, I now feel it is a waste of time. If someone has an inquiring mind. If someone is confused over the Gospel and is truly seeking to discover the Biblical truth of it, then the ground is receptive to receive the seeds of truth. If a person wants to come to discover the heart of the Christian message - God Himself waiting for His redeemed children to push in to conscious awareness of His presence; if a person wants to study God's Word as one would sit down to a feast of good bread, THEN progress, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can be made. For years I have been endeavoring to share the authentic Gospel truth with an Adventist minister friend, who claims that the Bible is his authority for truth and not EGW. In spite of his claim to use the Bible as his source for revealed truth, He has rarely written or sent anything that is not 90 to 98% EGW and church dogma. I have nearly reached the point where I cease all efforts to help peel off the layers of distortion on his windows of perception, and give up batting my head against EGW & Adventist "programming" - a term he objects to me using; and simply pray for him. I personally think the true motive for studying with anyone, needs to be clearly outlined and agreed upon before serious Bible study begins. Otherwise it quickly turns into a "he said, she said" "I don't," "You do!" battle and instead of rising toward a new height of understanding, individuals find themselves rising to new heights of temper and frustration. If a person has eyes to see but cannot see, and ears to hear but cannot hear, nothing but the power of God can bring true sight and hearing. It is ALL God's power from beginning to end anyway. This Adventist you are studying with may not even be a regenerate Christian. They may know proof texting up the Wazoo River but not know Father through Jesus Christ! I think it is far better to seek for truth on your own. There are countless books to help; great men of God scholars whose research is honest and objective to help. Turning to an Adventist who wants only to proselytize and bend you into believing their dogma, and hoping to discover TRUTH in the process, is something akin to studying with a Ku Klux Klan the history of African Americians! My heart is terribly burdened and sad most of the time, a conscious sadness, over the failure of Adventist family members, friends and former classmates and members who give no evidence of having a passion for knowing God personally, and yet resist any pure word of the saving Gospel centering around God's Grace, based upon Sola Scripture. If a person is not honenstly interested, cease banging your head against a blockhead, and turn them over to the Lord in earnest, daily prayer. I cannot tell you how sad I feel typing those very words; but if the Spirit of the Lord does not cause THEM to seek for truth, cause THEM to begin to question certain teachings; what can man do to bring that about? Nothing! It MUST be the work of the Spirit of God, Who IS the Spirit of Truth. Our part is to love, help in any way when needed, and pray for the Light that has shown into our darkened hearts to pierce their sectarian shell of false security and lead them to cry out, "What must I do to be saved?" Humbly submitted in prayer, Jess | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 711 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jess, you can never know when the "just right" moment is, or the aha phrase is uttered. Having experienced just such a turn-around as an SDA, I truly believe that we need to share with our SDA brethren as we would share with anyone else. True, most of the time they will be coming at us like they are the bearers of light. When I finally had my roll-over moment I was trying to enlighten a fellow Christian to the deeper truths found within Adventism, but as it worked out I had to face that she might have more light than me in that particular moment. What really matters is whether or not they are open to the Holy Spirit, and only the Holy Spirit will know the answer to that. Belva | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2000 |
Amen, Jess! I sadly admit, I find your observations above to be so true. We have to stand though, and PRAY. | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jess, when I read your answer I too felt that you(ve got a point, and a very good point. I've been wrestling with the same arguments and many times I just wonder whether I should continue with those bible study because it's a ping-pong game after all and that was not the initial goal of our bible study. It makes me more tired and I can't say that "we're growing towards Him and eachother"... it's that my girlfriend is SDA...otherwise I think I stopped already... Thanks for your words. Willy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1942 Registered: 3-2004  |
Willy, I married a man who became SDA just to please me and as soon as we married he dropped the facade. It was very disappointing to me. He was not happy being SDA and I was not happy. After we divorced, with one child involved, I quit going to church, my name was removed from the church books, and 21 years later I discovered Jesus in the Bible. That is the short version of my story. The point is that I do not want you to go through all the hurt. That is why I said earlier, to "Guard your heart". If you go beyond boyfriend/girlfriend and get more serious, your girlfriend will get more serious about her religious beliefs. Why not ask your girlfriend to read the Bible with you, without the pastors or whoever is studying with you, without any EGWhite books, just the Bible?? In the meantime, you are on my prayerlist. God be with Willy as he is studying the Bible with these SDAs. You know what they teach and how confusing and convoluted it is. Give Willy the right questions to ask and Lord, send him the Holy Spirit to teach him. You are awesome in all you do. Diana |
