| Author | Message | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2004 |
I had a interesting conversation with a visiting relative and his friend, both lifetime SDA. It came up that several of my fellow ministers at the Sunday church I work at have become vegetarian due to concerns over the treatment of animals, and the environment, etc. (fyi, they are NOT preaching this to anyone, not legalistic about it at all) Anyway, he was genuinely curious and seemed to be in shock that someone would 'come to vegetarianism', his words, becasue of the effect on the animals instead of the people. I got a kick out of that - they were sitting there talking about how horrible the meat packing plants and the turkey processing is, how disgusting, on and on. One is/was a teacher at an SDA school and actually took a class to see the meat packing plant, I guess to shock them or disgust them into not eating it - BECAUSE IT'S SO UNHEALTHY. He said it didn't usually work for long, they would 'go right back to meat-eating'. I finally spoke up, gently, that maybe the problem with the way the meat is processed is not that it is unhealthy FOR PEOPLE, but that THE ANIMALS are suffering terribly and needlessly. It just seemed so self-absorbed to be horrified by this gruesome sight because of how it might affect oneself! People have a choice, the poor creatures don't. These are God's creatures too, and they deserve some sort of life. They both seemed stunned, but I could feel the presence of the Lord as the light dawned. It was awesome!!! One fellow had actually said, "We aren't guilty!", referring to the meat industry. I just looked at him and asked if he wears leather. More animals are killed for their skins than their meat. They had never even once considered this. Now, before anybody gets too excited, I wear leather, I occasionally eat fish, don't eat other meat only because I don't like it and certainly don't judge anyone else. I do encourage folks to at least consider choosing free range animals and those not treated with hormones. The thing is that I got the sense that not eating meat was another way to rack up points in the Big Book. We've all been there! But all along we were participating in the meat industry. Even ol' Ellen said something about the cruel treatment of the animals - but apparently that didn't get much press in their circle. Just how it makes us unhealthy - like our temporal bodies are the big thing! I guess if you aren't sure about the afterlife, staying healthy in this body is more important than ever. It was a blessing to watch these two fine gentlemen have a reframe about the whole issue right in front of my eyes. And I also had a reframe - they had actually never considered this side of it. Never. Marcell | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1984 Registered: 11-2002 |
Marcell, In my community we have the VIP Club. VIP stands for Vegetarian Inclined People. Thankfully a local SDA lets the community VIP'ers use it's social hall for the VIP once per month potluck and social. However, there are only a few old-timer SDA's who will even go to the VIP meetings. Most the VIP folks are totally into animal rights and are very active in organizations such as PETA and have no concerns about meat being a goldy way to live. Of course, these folks get very intent about leather and fur, which SDA's have no problem with using. And, the VIP potlucks are very nutritionally sound, mostly totally vegan with the rules being that if an item has any dairy, eggs, sugar or white flour the item must be labled as such with a big printed sign in front of the serving bowl. The few SDA's I know who attend the VIP meetings consistantly mention how much more nurishing the VIP food is than the Sabbath after church SDA potlucks are. BTW, those of you in the LA area-at one of the big parks in LA every year on Thanksgiving all the LA vegetarians meet at the park for a huge feast, playing football and having a good time. I've heard generally around 20,000 folks show up for the potluck feast. Sounds like a good time, make some new friends, eat good food. | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 |
ADVENTIST DIET NOT STRICT ENOUGH? Acts 15:20,29, and 21:25 seem to indicate that one of the first acts of the Jerusalem Council (Not the GC!) was to re-enact the restriction against eating meat from strangled animals (in other words, the meat eaten by early christians was REQUIRED to be KOSHER--(slaughtered and prepared according to the Jewish ceremonial laws...) How do we as 21st century Christians respond to this apparent "burden" of church authority in the NT era? (1 Peter 2:13, Rom 13:1-2,Heb 13:7, 1 Peter 5:5) Is it still binding on us? If I don't follow it, what does that do to my walk? I posed this question to a very, very high ranking, extremely well known Adventist theologian, (since adventists push clean and unclean, but make no distinction on HOW the animal was slaughtered which Acts 15 does!) and he did not refute my interpretation of the passage--but merely stated that the text is no longer relevant because Adventism has moved the requirement way beyond eating kosher meat-- Adventism is now moving its people towards Veganism which essentially obsoletes this requirement. however, it seems true that a large number of people in Adventism have stayed focused on clean/unclean meats and are not willing to look at the wholistic view of health, which includes fats, sugar, total calories, etc...and they don't look outside of diet--as in exercise, proper rest, adequate water intake, etc. etc... bowever, the fact they don't do it, or get it, does not negate the fact that seems to be revealing itself in America--we eat too much of the wrong foods and it is killing us! i know i could eat healthier! but i could also do better in other areas like exercise too! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1123 Registered: 7-2003  |
How do you get from "strangled" to kosher and all associated jewish ceremonies?? All the scripture references you quote (besides the 3 referencing idol worship practices and fornication) are about being under authorities, not eating meat. It is my understanding that meat offered to idols was offensive in the first century as some thought there was some sort of evil powers associated with it, and that some from non-jewish backgrounds also drank blood, which was equally offensive. But that is not the beginning and the end of discussion on food in the New Testament. Can't take just part, without the whole. Romans 14. Rom 14:2 One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables. Rom 14:3 The one eating, do not despise the one not eating. And the one not eating, do not judge the one eating, for God received him. ... Rom 14:13 Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward a brother. Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing by itself is common; except to the one deeming anything to be common, it is common. Rom 14:15 But if your brother is grieved because of your food, you no longer walk according to love. Do not by your food destroy that one for whom Christ died. Rom 14:16 Then do not let your good be spoken evil of. Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rom 14:18 For the one serving Christ in these things is pleasing to God, and approved by men. Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue the things of peace, and the things for building up one another. Rom 14:20 Do not by your food undo the work of God. Truly, all things are clean, but it is bad to the man who eats through a stumbling-block. Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is weak. Rom 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is the one not condemning himself in what he approves. Rom 14:23 But the one doubting, if he eats, he has been condemned, because it is not of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin. 1Co 8:1 But concerning the sacrifices to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 1Co 8:2 But if anyone thinks to know anything, he still has known nothing as he ought to know. 1Co 8:3 But if anyone loves God, he has been known by Him. 1Co 8:4 Then concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God except one. 1Co 8:5 For even if some are called gods, either in the heavens or on the earth; (even as there are many gods, and many lords); 1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him. 1Co 8:7 But the knowledge is not in all; but some being aware of the idol eat as an idolatrous sacrifice until now; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God. For neither if we eat do we excel, nor if we do not eat are we lacking. 1Co 8:9 But be careful lest this authority of yours become a cause of stumbling to the weak ones. 1Co 8:10 For if anyone sees you, the one having knowledge, sitting in an idol-temple, will not the weak one's conscience be lifted up so as to eat things sacrificed to idols? 1Co 8:11 And on your knowledge the weak brother will fall, he for whom Christ died. And that's not the whole either, but it's sure pretty specific in relation to this discussion. Seems scripture teaches that our food is not an issue when it comes to God. What people choose to do for health is their personal issue. It is not a spiritual issue to be judged by others. For the most part, we do not live in the same environment where food is considered "offensive" as it was in the days for Jewish/non-Jewish believers. So, though I'm sure that there are some situations where what you eat could be a stumbling issue, I don't think it's the norm except where religions teach doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:3). The SDA I know spends more time studying food labels and what is "good" according to this latest study (of course, only those published by vegetarians are legitimate) than he does reading scripture. And he spends more time working on that tent of a temple of his, than doing any "one anothers". I don't know how it is possible to keep a job and maintain the level of "health" he thinks he should. We certainly know more about health today than ever before, but we are still living longer than many generations too. I've been reading Walt Larimore's book on highly healthy people, and food and exercise are only two of a number of aspects that define heatlhy people. But little of that equates on the spiritual scale. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2005 |
Health like love is impossible as human beings because we are too selfish to find that balance. Jesus Christ gives me the balance I need to MAKE THE HEALTHY CHOICES AS THEY COME TO ME TODAY. The people I know who are "health nuts" are also selfish and disconnected. Thank Jesus for balance. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2738 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lisa and Melissa, great points! Colleen | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2004 |
kinda my whole point is that maybe there is an issue that has NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR HEALTH. Like what about the value we place on life, the value we place on creation. We have come to view animals as just another 'product', but I don't think that is what God intended for them. Focusing on not eating meat because it might not be good FOR ME once again points me back to my flesh, my own pre-occupation with this life. Once again, I certainly wouldn't tell anyone else what to eat or wear - only that there is a kinder, gentler side to choosing to come down a little bit lower on the food chain. As the Holy Spirit guides.... Marcell | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1128 Registered: 7-2003 |
What I know is Adam and Eve made clothes of leaves, and God made clothes of animal skins...that was his first restorative act we are told about after the fall. I personally would have a hard time thinking God would "lead" in one direction or another in this regard, neither do I think a personal preference is "sinful" one way or the other. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2027 Registered: 11-2002 |
Help! I'm have a food trama! I just went to Costco. The lady was giving out samples of glucosamine. Now, I really need to keep my joints in good working condition because my house is two story and I make scores of round trips on those stairs daily. I've never been grossed out before about glucosamine. However, the lady giving out the sample first wanted to knowc if I'm allergic to shell fish. I said, "I don't know. I've never ate a shell fish. Why are you asking?" Then she told me glucosamine is made from shell fish. I got all grossed out and now know I'll never take glucosamine again and I'll suffer from aching joints. Help! BTW, do SDA doctors recommend glucosamine? If they do shouldn't they be made aware that glucosmine is made from shell fish? Stan, you're a doctor right? Should I just get over my phobia about shell fish and take glucosmine or should I decide it's not worth the emotional anxiety I get from even thinking about putting a shell fish in my mouth and just go with the aching joints? And, no, this post is not a joke. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 704 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, I need the glucosamine, so I take it. The knees are still a basket case, but I would be near paralyzed without it. If you are allergic to shellfish you should avoid glucosamine as a supplement, otherwise tell yourself that God put all things at our disposal, even named us as guardians of all things. I know you have carefully avoided ingesting meat and animal products your whole life long, so you have to follow your own concience on these things, but I'm sure you have worn shoes made of leather at one time or another, or some other animal-based product has been used by you or members of your family whether you knew about that or not. I think someone else mentioned that if we get to looking at stuff like this too much, then we are just being sucked into looking at ourselves and what we can do instead of acknowledging the finished work of the cross that was Jesus' accomplishment. Glucosamine is made using oyster shells as one of the ingredients. I don't know about you, but if the shell of a bi-valve will help me keep moving, then I'll use it. Getting around even with that in my system is still hard enough. I can't even imagine going back to the arthritic condition I used to be in without it! Belva | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2002 |
Many medications and supplements that doctors prescribe are made from animal products. Some like thyrhoid and calcium are broadly used. In calcium and glucosamine, you are just using a product derived from the shell, not from the fish itself. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 941 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, please don't worry about taking the glucosamine. There are reasonably good medical studies showing the benefit of it. Also SDA doctors are not worried about it either. Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 310 Registered: 8-2004  |
Susan2, your question reminds me of when I heard that many vitamins - especially the B vitamins - were derived from horse urine. I was pregnant at the time and was especially supposed to be ingesting lots of B vitamins. It gave me the heebie jeebies! Mary | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2031 Registered: 11-2002 |
Actually, Belva, my family has always eaten the clean meats. I am the one on here that posted that I buy my beef a side at a time as a good friend of mine is a cattle rancher and I get my beef from her. At the same time though I just have an abhorrance about shell fish. I mean it, I stand in the supermarket and I watch the lobsters crawl around in their pen and they are so ugly that I just can't immagine putting something so ugly in my mouth. I live just a few blocks from some of the most highly acclaimed clam chowder restruants in California and I have never even been courious enough to step into the doors of those places. I know I'm not allergic to shellfish because until this afternoon I could take glucosiamine with nary a thought. I've decided though to go back to taking gluciamone because my joints need an extra boost. I have heard that stitches are made from pig parts. Do SDA doctors sew up people using string made from pig parts? Isn't that putting pork into those people? Gosh, shellfish gross me out! However, I love pepperoni pizza and bacon. But, shellfish! No way! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 705 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh, Susan, I'm so glad you have been able to resolve the issue for yourself. I'm so sorry that there is a religion that can worry us so about trivia, but distract us from blessed assurance. That's the real crime in all of this. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2033 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, This is off topic but do you still listen to Dr. Gene Scott? I have him on now. Generally I avoid preachers on tv or radio but I sure do like listening to Mr. Scott. I have learned so much from him and everytime I have him on I learn so much more. Don't you have some of his tapes? | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 |
thanks melissa for your thoughts. I wonder if my original post should have had two issues which would have been clearer. 1. dealing with church authority--what authority does a church body have to bind rules onto its members. a literal reading of the previously posted texts (beginning with Rom 13:1)would seem to give a church a lot of lattitude and put a lot of burden on people. 2. what do we do specifically with Acts 15:20,29 since it put a requirement which is burdensome to us. i got the idea that melissa felt the entire text dealt with animals sacrificed gods, and i see that in the text, but it seems to makes a separate distinction in that it states "From things strangled" and "from blood" in addition to referring to "pollutions of idols". since this "Act" of the Jerusalem council came early in the Christian Era, and Paul agreed to be bound by this council in His ministry, all Paul's subsequent writings would have to be intepreted in the light of this action. Paul would not have contradicted it intentionlly. Thus, even though Paul talks about freedom in what we eat, I am not sure that freedom should not be interpreted in such a way as to ignore or overthrow this council's position.... just like i could say that in america, "I am Free to do or be whatever I want", but that does not negate the fact that it is illegal to use certain drugs or kill my neighbor. the statement "I am free" is subordinate to, and should be understood in the context of the laws of the land... so when paul says "its all good" in all those other texts melissa quoted, would he be saying that without regard to this prior act of the jerusalem council? I don't know. I'm just asking. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2004  |
Pauls, While I don't think this will answer everything, I've read awhile back that the few restrictions given at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 were actually a restatement of the Noahdic covenant, and were not specifically about Jewish laws. When I look at Genesis 9:1-7, it does say "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant, Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." But I don't see anything in Genesis about "things sacrificed to idols" and fornication as stated in Acts 15. Maybe someone else has more insight about how Acts 15 relates to the Noahdic covenant. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 942 Registered: 3-2005 |
I think you are right Raven about the Acts passage reiterating some of the Noahic covenant. But those restrictions even in Acts 15 were later lifted by Paul when in 1 Cor. he said "feel free to eat anything sold in the meat market" Swindoll said it well once when he said that in Acts 15 during this transition period, that these were temporary table manners. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2750 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, thanks for the Swindoll reference. Yes, that is also how I have seen Acts 15. Since the Noahic covenant was not, as Raven pointed out, given to Israel, the Jews saw it as applying equally to all humanity (even if they didn't observe it!). Jesus Himself said (Matt. 15:11) that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean; it is what comes out of his mouth that makes him unclean. Peter's vision in Acts 10 made no distinction regarding what was permissible to eat, and Paul taught that nothing should be called unclean. Acts 15, I believe, was a requirement for Gentile believers so the Jewish believers could eat with them without offense. Clearly eating together was an issue then; Peter was succumbing to the Judaizers' criticism of his disregard for the "rules" when he ate with Gentile Christians. If the Gentiles avoided blood (also the issue in strangled animals--in other words, if they "kept kosher" minus the rabbi's blessing--) the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers could feel free to eat at the same table from the same serving dishes, and no one would be offended. The situation really reminds me of former Adventists eating together when some still viscerally cannot tolerate meat and some can eat anything. We always need to accommodate those who still can't internalize their freedom in this area. Conversely, those who truly have aversions, as opposed to free choices, about meat, etc., owe it to themselves and to their fellow brothers and sisters to ask God to help them surrender so their choices can be truly free. Colleen |
