| Author | Message | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2005 |
1 cor 9:27 (see also Col 3:5) why does paul keep his body under submission--to what rules, laws, etc does He keep his body in submission to? and if he is saved by grace and grace alone--it being a completed work on the cross--why does he fear being a cast off in the end.....or is he too a struggling ex Adventist? i ask the same question about luke 13:24 strive -what does that mean in the context of completed work on the cross? | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 669 Registered: 1-2003 |
Who fears being cast off in the end? | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2004  |
Pauls- Paul believed that Christ would return and take those who believed to heaven. He was an adventist, but not a Seventh-day Adventist. Picking scripture out of text is a game that Seventh-day Adventists play on a daliy basis,and also was what drew me into the cult. They're no different then Jehova Witnesses or Mormons when it comes to deception. Luke 13:24, Colossians 3:5 and 1 Corninthians 9:27 have nothing to do with the old covenant laws or the Sabbath, and everything to do with walking with the Lord and keeping his New Covenant commandments- To love the Lord God with all your heart and soul and to love your neigbor as you love yourself. Jesus said " It is finished" and I believe it. Praise God our wonderful Lord and Savior! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2018 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Patrick, I agree whole-heartedly with you about the commands of Jesus-to love God with your entire being and to love your neighbor. However, when I point these things oput to my SDA loved ones I am told that THE ONLY way to show God you really love Him and desire to follow Jesus is by following the o.t. laws. Not all opf them, of course as there are 612 laws in the o.t. but only the ones the SDA's have decided to emphasise and twist to their liking. I have walked out of the room with dealing with my SDA kin so often aboer this. I then point out to them that there are numeerous community ministeries that many different denominations come together to support, such as totally supporting a home for women in crisis pregnancies whose only other option would be abortion, a community foodbank, a daily lunchline for anyone who wants a good, hearty lunch, etc. The SDA church is constantly offered to partisi[pate in these outreaches which show Christian love for one another. And, true to form the local SDA church refuses to get involved with any and all of the programs. Then the SDA's I speek with get all indignant and act put-out because the general publuic in the community think of them in the same way they think og the JW's. They just always tell me the only way to show God your love is by keeping Sabbath, not eating this or that , nopt smoking, not drinking a beer now and then. Forgetr about actually getting involved with things that really do indicate Christian love. Thanks for hearing me out. When I get confronted by SDA's on those texts I just have to vent! | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2005 |
I was taught in the SDA church that the 10 commandments were the only thing God directly said in the bible to us, making them most important to God and they are all based on love and we can't leave out any of the 10. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1122 Registered: 7-2003  |
If you believe that God is Jesus and Jesus is God, Jesus said a lot of things directly to us...take the sermon on the mount.... Then we have the Holy Spirit...and if the Holy Spirit "breathed" God's words called scripture, then the whole Bible is God speaking to us..... It seems very odd to say the 10 commandments are the only place God is speaking directly to "us". He was speaking to the newly freed Hebrew slaves just like Jesus was speaking to the people in the crowd in his day. If the words from Horeb are for us "today" then surely Jesus words are equally for us "today" and if Jesus spoke to Paul on the Damascus road and made him the apostle to the gentiles and the Holy Spirit has spoken through him to write letters, surely those are for us "today" all equally in context. Paul, who was specifically to teach gentile Christians, NEVER quotes the 10 commandments in their entirety...and he certainly never tells anyone to keep the sabbath... in Galatians, he is pretty critical of those keeping holy days. Calls them foolish. Jesus changed everything when he came. He fulfilled all the shadows that the Old Testament foretold. You MUST view the Old Testament in the context of Jesus completed work. If there is not an old covenant (which Deut 5:2-3 clearly identifies as being given at Horeb to the Hebrews for the first time and repeated in the following verses in Deut 5), then there is no need for the new covenant, which Jesus brought in with HIS blood. He did more than save a few animals from a sacrificial system. Problem I have with that SDA teaching is it's not in the Bible. It sounds theological, but where is the scripture reference for anything remotely related to it? (Message edited by melissa on October 17, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2734 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lynne, That argument is really blasphemous. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." Further, Hebrews 1:2 tells us that "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times AND IN VARIOUS WAYS, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." The inscription of the 10 Commandments was merely ONE of the ways God spoke to people in the past. His personal revelation of Himself through Jesus, however, transcended all other communications God made with mankind. Jesus Himself personally spoke to humanity and revealed the Father and salvation and life and immortality. To say that the 10 Commandments are the most important thing God told us because He inscribed them with His hand is to say they are more important that Jesus Himself, the very Person of God and the incarnation of Deity in humanity. Jesus surpasses all other revelation given to men. Even further, for those who accept Jesus and live on this side of the cross, we have the literal indwelling of the Almighty God in our own spirits. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit--God Himself--lives in us. This intimate teacher and comforter and discipliner far surpasses the mere 10 Commandments which were carved in impermanent stone. The Holy Spirit makes us eternally alive, and we are eternally united with God through Him and the the provision of Jesus' blood. Pauls (welcome to the forum, by the way--I haven't seen your first post yet, but welcome!) "Striving" in the context of being born from above and saved by Christ's completed work simply means continuing to submit to the Holy Spirit. It means living by the Spirit instead of by the sinful nature (Romans 8:5-14). It means knowing Jesus and surrendering to Him, not just knowing about Him (Matthew 7:21-23). It means being made alive with Christ and seated at the Father's right hand in Christ Jesus, realizing the transformation of becoming God's workmanship "created in Christ Jesus" to do the good works which "he prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:6-10). "Striving" has nothing to do with the law. It has everything to do with persevering in surrendering to Jesus. It means not reverting to perfecting myself by discipline. Instead, we submit and surrender every sin and habit and secret thing we hang onto. Only in surrender is there victory, because then it is not my discipline accomplishing the task. God's own power works in me when I susrrender my vices and longings to Him. It can't have anything to do with law, because Jesus destroyed the dividing wall of hostility between the Jews (who had the law) and the Gentiles (who didn't) by "abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations" (Ephesians 2:14-15). Instead, Jesus created "in himself one new man out of the two" and reconciled both of them to God "through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility" (Ephesians 2:15-16). The cross of Jesus completely settled the problem of our intrinsic sin. At the cross Jesus "abolished" the law which was not an eternal madate but was a written regulation which condemned all humans to death for not perfectly keeping it. Instead of leaving us with law, Jesus left us with Himself and His Spirit--who demand far more sepcific accountability and integrity than the law did! No, when we are in Christ, "striving" is about persisting in surrendering, persisting in being committed to Jesus and willing to grow and be disciplined and to allow Him to heal and perfect us through our suffering and our calls to give up all the things we think are important. "Striving" means always seeking after Jesus, always being willing to learn to trust Him when we face shame and insult and pain and loss. It means learning to take the arrows for Jesus without defending ourselves. It means learning humility for the sake of God's glory! Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thank you for the clarification. The adventist church is the only place where I learned about Jesus and I need these answers. They always had the answer, but the answers I've seen here are bringing more peace in my heart. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2021 Registered: 11-2002 |
Melissa, You mentioned Jesus is God. Yes, that is true. That is exactialy what the Bible teaches. However, it is my understanding that generally SDA's don't accept Jesus as equal to God the Father but He rather is thought of as a lesser manifistation of God. Therefore, no matter what Jesus taught it will not be equal to what God the Father had to say about such things as a day to reast or food, etc. | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 |
It might be helpful to consider the texts you mention (1 Cor 9:27, Luke 13:24) in light of the fruits of the Spirit. We are counseled to grow in Christian graces - temperance and self-control (self-discipline) are things most of us need to 'grow' in. I think that is why Paul mentions it in 1 Cor 9 - he likens it to atheletes that train for months to achieve a temporary crown. They 'beat at the air', I 'fight'. He knows the race he runs is for an eternal crown. Should he strive less than they? Don't think I am advocating a 'works righteousness' - I am not. We are to 'run the race' so that we will be a useful instrument of God, to be used whenever and however He sees fit. I agree with Colleen that 'striving' is largely persistance in surrender. The 'putting to death of our members' (Col 3:5) appears to relate to putting off those things of our former life (the old man). This did not (and does not) happen overnight. Paul says in Col 3:8 that 'now' (after leaving behind those things we once walked in) we must put off anger, wrath, filthy language, etc. This indicates to me that surrender and self-discipline are involved. Again, not in support of a 'works righteousness', but it seems clear to me that surrender and self-discipline appear to be what Paul is trying to teach here. Forgive me for going on too long. InSearchOf | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 932 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Pauls to FAF! I agree with Colleen and insearchof. Those texts you mentioned at the top speaks also of rewards, and not salvation. I think it might be possible to be saved but lose your reward as 1 Cor. 3:15 seems to teach. The Bible, and the cleares teachings of Jesus which are located in John 5,6, and 10 teach that it is not possible for one of God's elect who has been truly born again by a miracle performed on the heart by the Holy Spirit to be lost, as the Spirit seals us for redemption. (Eph 1) John 5:24 is one of the clearest words of Jesus where He says "...whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life". If that life is eternal then how can a true child of God be lost? John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me...v39 "I will lose none of all that he has given me". When that miracle of saving grace occurs at a time of God's own choosing, then we are new creatures in Christ with a heart that has been changed to want to do the Father's will. The fruit of the spirit will become more manifest as we grow. So, all the texts that seem to indicate that a believer can be cast off must be interpreted in the light of the clearer portions of the Bible. Stan | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 |
wow! I'm overwhelmed. thanks for all the great thoughts. I never had any idea my little post would generate such attention and response. I am going to need to take some time and think through what everyone has said to this point. Colleens thoughts are not only affirming, but easiest to grasp as they are not new to me...I identify with the struggle we all face as christians to live lives "under the control of His spirit." (which is how I understand Matt 11:28-30). I also found riverfonz comments to be reflected in my own experience-and re-assuring-in that we look for Christ in His time and way to make us into new creatures who delight to do His will...and not on how well we perform, per se. To go one step further, it seems the proof that we are "performing" best as Christians, is that we we aren't even aware of it--matt 25:37-38. It seems the fruit of the Spirit will grow naturally, and thus unconsciously and without effort if we re-born and remain connected to the vine. And also that once sealed, God owns us forever, and will draw us back to Him if we ever leave Him and if we allow Him. point in case: me. I am now in my 40's but was raised adventist (a pharisee of the pharisses by pedigree and training!). I left the church (and all christianity for secular humanism) at 17 yrs of age because all religion appeared powerless in the lives of those around me to deliver on its claims--(i.e. there appeared to me to be no differnce between christians and non christians, so why encumber myself?), but I returned to Adventism in my mid-late twenties after the birth of my kids...and after i met some real godly adventists who mentored me without their knowing it. it was their love and kindness, along with reading the book patriarchs and prophets that turned me around....it has been a good journey as I have been fortunate to almost always be a part of a contemporary celebration church--where grace was taught and felt, but my point is that in looking back, I believe I did experience a conversion (at about age 13) and it was then I was sealed, and despite the fact i left christianity and embraced secular humanism, God orchestrated events to call me back into His body. when we first came back, we got into all the stuff you do as Adventists-- not to earn any salvation, but as a response of gratitude and a sincere desire to please God with our living... for the last 5-10 years, my wife and I have felt that God has been calling us out of our focus on mere obediance to "law" and into a living relationship with Christ as Lord (Gal 3:24,25). however the result is interesting, because many conservatives see us as inconsistent in our obediance to the law, and the liberals don't know what to do with us because we appear conservative to them. i think we make both angry. To give you a sense of how confusing our lives appear to our Adventist brothers--we are homeschooling vegans that live way out in the country. We do not have a TV, we do not attend movies or read secular novels. On the other hand, we freely interact with other faiths (I was in two Baptist Bible study groups), we are involved in community service as a family and individually, we read widely in contemporary christianity, we dress and live modestly, and contribute a large portion of our incomes to various christian organizations, and we are often seen at contemporary christian rock concerts WITH our teenage kids, and we attend christian art and drama presentations. We have not yet felt God is calling us away from such uniquely Adventist practices as worshiping on Sabbath--I never felt I had to "keep" the sabbath to be saved--but I do value my weekly "date" with Jesus--and i find that my "Sabbath" time is more enjoyable when I've spent a little time each day in His Word, in Prayer, and when I allow God to interact with me each day--and by the same token, my sabbath dates have been dull and stiff and boring when something is not right between me and God or I have failed to nurture my walk during the week-- Point is that I've never felt any urgency to change my "date" with Jesus from Saturday to Sunday, as some have. perhaps someone could help me understand the urgency and rationale of doing this? Clearly many Adventists have substituted and actually prefer the bondage of the law for a walk with Jesus. I am sad for them. Pray I never become one! On the other hand walking with Jesus can be a little scary because He often takes us out of our comfort zones. enough said about me. Thanks for all your thoughts and input on this issue of the "striving" we need to do in our walk. Its great to be able to discuss openly and see the different ideas develop. Thanks and God bless you all! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1124 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks for sharing your story. The only thing I have to offer is in relation to what you see as an urgency to switch from Saturday to Sunday. If you read long enough, I think you may see it is not an urgency towards a day, but towards finding a body of believers to worship with. If such services were available on Saturday, I suspect most would prefer to not change their traditions and habits. But reality is that there are more bodies of believers worshipping on Sunday than Saturday. At least that's how I read most people's journeys. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 81 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen, You speak often of surrender, Have you ever compiled your thoughts in a thread or article? Surrender appears to have so many levels, and for me, requires trust first, which requires relationship, and so forth. Belated welcome to Lynne and Pauls. Im still "on the books" as SDA, but find my beliefs less compatible all the time. Striving to keep "the law" has been a dead end for me. I have never been able to maintain that standard, and have a long history of effort, failure, disallusionment with Christianity, abandoment of even trying, and then a return to effort and desire to know "the truth". I have had periods of returning wholeheartedly in thought, to practicing my religion, including encounters with God and the Holy Spirit that lasted for quite some time, only to repeat the cycle. I think being in a legalistic enviornment helped to perpetuate that cycle. In addition to family tradition, I think that legalistic churches appeal to certain personalities more than others: black and white thinkers, perfectionists, those with power and control motives in either direction, (control or desire to turn responsibility over to others) those with obsessive/compulsive tendencies, and definitely those with deep shame, with an unconsious desire to "atone" for their shameful behaviors or experiences. The only finger pointing going on here is in my direction  . And these thoughts are based on "clinical" observation and experience over the years! The "good news" here is that when I discovered the law of Grace that set me free from the law of sin and death, the freedom is all that more sweet! Who better to experience and truly appreciate Grace, then someone so tightly bound by self-serving effort! I am amazed by the way the Holy Spirit convicts me, with no effort on my part! I can be starting a sentence, and be convicted that I am about to sound critical, take a breath, and have loving words come out of my mouth. It blows me away! It is so obviously not of me. My focus has changed to "ok God, what are you going to do in me today" rather than what am "I" going to focus on. Attempting to "keep" the Sabbath, or the law, binds me up in my old pattern of focusing on myself. THe enviornment of Adventism "chokes" me with the weeds. The focus on doctrine "chokes" me. I can only take short doses!. I don't know where I will end up for corporate worship experiences, but I am most Christlike when I am at the feet of Jesus. Pauls, it seems like you are enjoying the daily walk with Jesus. Someone here (I think melissa) said that a decision to leave Sabbath observance did not have to be a permanent one. That thought game me freedom to let go of that for now, to cling to Jesus alone, and to see where that will take me. So far, I am delighting more in my Savior. I am getting steady doses of what it means to "rest" in Jesus. I am worshipping in all types of daily situations. I am experiencing the "good news"!! I can harly keep my mouth shut to others. I continue to pray for each of you here. Susan, the Holy Spirit has really been speaking to me regarding community service, to care for widows and orphans and the hungry etc. Hugs all JavaGirl | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2745 Registered: 12-2003 |
JavaGirl, I have to say I am thanking God for the growth and "deepening" I see in you these past weeks. God is working in you! Pauls, thanks for sharing more about yourself. I understand your being inscrutable to both the conservatives and the liberal Adventists. Following Jesus gives us freedom the law-keepers can't understand and also convicts us us in ways the "liberals" don't understand. Just a few thoughts on the Sabbath. Melissa is right about the essential need for finding a body of believers with whom to worship--a healthy, Bible-focussed, Christ-centered body--and those seem to meet on Sundays! For us, however, and I suspect for many others as well, it did become necessary for us to give up Sabbath completely in order to act in faith that Jesus was all we needed. Because of the deep spiritual overtones associated with Sabbath-keeping, as long as we observed the day, we had a sense in the backs of our minds that just in case there was something signficant about the day, we were covered. I believe the reason the Sabbath is so deeply ingrained in anyone with an Adventist background is that SDA Sabbath-keeping is connected with the spirit of Adventism. Since Adventists call the Sabbath the seal of God (or now, the sign of the seal), it has taken the place of the Holy Spirit in Adventist hearts. They will honor and defend that day as the mark of their salvationówhen all the while, the Holy Spirit is the true seal of God on His people. Sabbath has been placed in the "seat" of the Holy Spirit. This substitution of a created day for the God of the universe is idolatry and comes awfully close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The Sabbath has a spiritual hold on Adventist hearts because of this traditional, heretical substitution. That's why it's SO HARD to let it go. We love the Sabbath; it's emotional and spiritual hold on us is profound. These reasons are why we had to choose to "desecrate" the day deliberately. If we hadn't walked away from it completely, we would always have been hedging our bets. The fact that there is discomfort associated with not keeping the day is the indicator that how we spend the day is not a neutral, free choice. I believe that most Adventists have to deal with this bottom line reality. If Jesus is truly eough, then we have to let go even of our most loved symbol of belonging to Him. This doesn't mean that keeping the Sabbath is wrong; it may even mean that one could eventually continue worshiping on that day. Unless one is willing to let go of EVERYTHING, though, even the spiritual symbols we most loved, we'll never know if we're really throwing ouselves completely on the mercy of Jesus. He asks us to be willing to give up everything for Him--and for us, that "everything" included the day that had always been the symbol of our spiritual commitment. It's like the recommendations in 1 Corinthians 8 and in Acts 15 that the Gentile Christians not eat meat offered to idols. Paul said those idols were nothing to him, and eating meat offered to them meant nothing to him. For those "newbie" Gentile Christians, however, to eat that meat would trigger a cascade of habits and memories and feelings that could pull them back to the past or could give confusing messages to other people just giving up paganism for Jesus. Even though we may have moved beyond the tradiutional Adventist understanding of Sabbath, still its emotional and spiritual mark is on us, and we have to know we trust Jesus alone--and trust Him to be intimate with us in ways that surpass meeting with Him on Sabbath. We have experienced that confirmation from Him. We are aware of living with Him and being personally in His presence every day--and the closeness surpasses anything we ever experienced on Sabbath. Just my observations! Oh, one question, Pauls--what is your view of Ellen White? I have to say that how I saw her profoundly affected my eventual response to every spriitual belief and pracitce I had. Colleen (Message edited by colleentinker on October 18, 2005) | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 |
I appreciate what you are saying about giving up the idols in your life--including Sabbath if it is one--for trust in Christ alone.... I spent 15 years as a serf shoehorned into corporate America when it didnt fit who i was. (The book Fire in the Belly described my situation exactly and I wept when I read those chapters dealing with how corporate America has raped the souls of men) Having entered corporate America at age 20, when my hair was still long and my clothes were more fashionable, i read "Dress for Success" and the company's employee handbook, and shaved, cut my hair, changed my ward robe, (back then, tie pattern shirt color, and suit color were all prescribed based on rank in the company. even jewellry and tatoos were controlled! and this was corporate america) and overall I forced myself into becoming the picture of corporate success. This along with 18 hour/7 days a week of slaving paid off, as I became the youngest corporate officer (27 years old, VP Finance, in 2 separate $50 million divisions, with a reputation for turning around bad situations). The personal price I paid was high, (almost lost my marriage, left some damage on my kids!) and God eventually showed me it was killing me, and i left corporate america for self employment...or should i say, direct dependence on God for daily bread. I remember, the first year I was free of corporate america, I grew a long pony tail just as my private way of saying good bye to corporate america with all that it had forced me to be that I was not. For me to violate the dress code was my way of proving I was free. I was real proud of my hair, but after about a year, I cut it off. But I think psychologically it was important to make a statement of my freedom for myself-nobody else really cared.... I have a SDA mother in law who recently discovered she is saved by grace and not by following the church, and she had her ears pearced. Every time she puts on her earings, she says, it reminds her she is saved by grace and not by works, every time she turns her head all day long, and feels the earrings dangle, she says, it is like God whispering in her ear: my grace is sufficient for you.... so i think i can identify with your general comments about breaking the old associations of sabbathkeeping. However, i have not felt that way yet about sabbathkeeping. Remmeber i left the church at 17 and left a lot of that baggage at the door when i came back...because i came back as an adult, freely, on my terms, and with Jesus as the foundation of my life, not a system of beliefs.... as to the question my views of Ellen White, i am going to have to think on that a lot to be able to summarize it succinctly. This is my second go round with Adventism and I havent picked up a lot of the baggage/damage that a lot of people around me have relative to her. I have always read widely, and had more friends outside the church than inside, so although I have read some of her stuff, I have always placed it in perspective of the broader works of all christian authors. For example, on my desk at this moment, are the following books: Exploring Worship (Bob Sorge) My Utmost for His Highest (Oswald Chambers), Purpose Driven Life (Rick Warren), Lessons on Faith (EJ Waggonner), Sacred Marriage (Gary Thomas), Cost of Discipleship (Dietrich Bonnhoffer), The Big Book of AA, Hunger for Healing and a Taste of New Wine (Keith Miller) Escape to God (Jim Hohnberger), Adventures in Missing the Point (Campollo & McLaren) The complete husband (Lou Priolo), my trusty KJV and my Living Bible, and Desire of Ages (EG White), the man in the mirror (Phillip Morley), the Road less travelled (MScott Peck) I have wanted to dig into Luther as God gave him tremendous insight and have been following the Luther thread--i will probably try to chase down that book by Barbour Publishing... my focus with all these authors is to focus on what is good, helpful and beneficial to my walk with Jesus, and leave the rest on the pages of the book. I like to evaluate the information the author provides one page at a time in terms of its usefullness, and not judge the author as a whole or personally----why should i judge the person who wrote it down if the words are inspired--judging the author tells me nothing about the words, really--since all humans have failed personally. for example: David was a great prophet in Israel, giving us many Messianic prophecies, yet looking at his life, he lied, he murdered innocent women and children, he took another man's wife, he did things God speciclly told him not to--like number Israel, and if David appeared in the New Testament church where Timothy pastored, David, that great prophet, would not even qualify for a deacon position! See 1 Tim 3:10-12 I think John the Baptist is another. Morally he was probably pure, but his theology was screwed up in relation to Jesus 1st coming. I don't think he understood the cross--I think he was totally sold on the popular Jewish theology of the day--that Messiah would come and make Israel rule the world. Yet Jesus called him the greatest prophet ever. (personally, when I read the OT prophecies it seems to me the 1st and 2nd coming ones are jumbled together in a manner that it would be easy to confuse--that means we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret for us John 16:13) one proof they words are inspired is that they are out of character for that person. (could be inspired from above or below) the other is that they are consistent with Biblical teaching and the other is that they are useful to my walk. ( i Cor 14:3-4) I have heard people say the most God inspired words one moment, and fail so miserably the next that I have come to realize that "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of Us. 2 Cor 4:7. God is incredibly large and mysterioius. Bigger than any of us can get our brains around. I don't believe any one person has or will have the last word on God--either in describing God or in how best to experience Him. On the other hand, God often gives little glimpses of Himself to all of us. Some of us were fortunate enough write it down and share it--we call them authors but we are all part of the priesthood of believers and we should all have a personal experience with God. I think that religion is mans' attempt to contain God in a box and create a repeatable formula for a spiritual experience--do it the baptist way--no the mormon way is right--no the sda way--but my God will not fit completely in any man's box!! and He promises to reveal Himself to the humble seeker. He will smash through the artificial political divisions man creates with His Truth in His Time! I had heard rumblings about ellen's copying, and all, but never really gave it much thought--other than to think--that's too bad. Recently i have visited truth or fables .org and several other sites which have set out to defame her. I think there are a lot of valid issues raised which the SDA church has not adequately or openly answered, and a few invalid ones that have been raised, and some which i need time to consider. It seems to me that these sites are definetely taking a slanted position--interpreting everything they can in as negative a light as possible without considering alternative interpretations which would resolve the issues. I would appreciate an unbiased look which i probably can't find--either people want her gone or people want her placed as an infallible prophet...the truth is probbaly somewhere in between... for example: i read a section about how mrs white was opposed to the pub house buying manuscripts and wanted instead to retain the royalty model--the author submitted this as proof of eg whites greed. there is another way to interpret this and its not just about money--its also about who owns the material--eg white obviously believed in what she did and wanted as many people as possible to read the materials...so she would not want a publisher to buy her material and put it on a shelf--by retaining the rights, she could continue to re-license it to publishers until she could find one who would give her the distribution she felt she needed. I also read about how mrs. white ate oysters, chicken, beef, etc. and this was some how hypocrital. It just proves she was human and full of sin (like David or Paul) and struggled with addictions and appetites like I do! I know first hand it is easy to write on paper how to live--how often do I know the truth but find myself living outside it. (Rom 7:14-25) I recently heard a sermon on Micah 6:8 and God really hit me hard that I should be a kinder, gentler, more caring person. God asks me to do things all the time that I can't do--not to make me mad or irritable, because He is teaching me to depend on Him. And I am amazed at what the life of Christ in me can do when I let Him have His way! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 675 Registered: 1-2003 |
I read "Escape to God"...it was a really hot book about 3 to 4-years ago when I would comb the ABC looking for salvation. I would be interested to re-read it now that I am not an SDA. The guy seemed to be the perfect Christian at the time...moving to the mountains with his sons and wife and forgetting "everything". Have you read it? | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pauls, Thank you for sharing your journey. I just want to say that God grows us up in His Time. I also want to say that some web-sites are better than others. Some are angry and use the same kind of dishonest argumentation as those they oppose. I personally appreciate Jack Gent's studies...I think itís either @ www.exsda.com or www.ex-sda.com and the new covenant studies at the Grace Place web site are AWESOME . I left Adventism because I wondered forever why 2+2 never made 4. Why did we have the "truth" yet refuse to stand up against abortion, yet the Catholic Church does and has lots to loose from it? Why were SDA kids so rebellious and very few "sold out for God"? What could I do to raise kids alive for God in my dead culture? Why are jewelry or music styles even discussed at church in 2005? TOTAL NON ISSUES. We attended an SDA church whose pastor rarely if ever quoted Ellen White, and who preached grace. Our particular church happened to be one of the healthier SDA churches around. Why then, would we leave? Because God in His Mercy removed the scales off our eyes so that we could see that any time we live in ANY WAY under the law, that we are under the law of sin and death, and unable to respond in any fashion other than rebellion. That when we believe in the COMPLETED work on the Cross, that we are living in the Spirit. It took months of study to undo the mixing and matching that took place in our hearts and minds, being raised Seventh day Adventists. I do not believe that All SDA's are lost. I do believe, however, that MOST that stay inside the system because they think they have "the truth" have been unable to let God clean their heart of pride so that they can see in all it's fullness the gift of the cross of Jesus Christ. I could try to explain till I'm blue in the face the lies mixed with truth inside the church, however, it's a God thing that takes you out. And to leave prematurely could also be dangerous as many who leave become disconnected with God altogether and disillusioned about what it means to serve God. It's not a church, you are right, it's a PATH. THE ONE WITH TRUTH IS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF AND THE SCRIPTURES ALONE. Be carfeful in pointing to authors of the Bibleís mistakes as a means of justifying EG Whiteís prophetic calling. I know you were speaking to the issue of meat eating.. also a NON ISSUE. However, it is very common inside Adventism for people, when supporting Ellen White, to use to Bibleís authors such as David to show that God used imperfect people to do his work. God is very clear, however, in stating that there would be false prophets inside the ìflockî and how to determine who is a false prophet and who is not. The Bible stands alone and is not to be lessoned so that we can pick and choose prophets to our liking. Mark 12 :1-12 tells a parable that suggests that God sent many prophets to his people and that the last word was Jesus Himself. Some might conclude that he was referring to the Jewish people only. Jer 23:25 and on might interest you regarding plagiarism. The last thing I want to say is that the way my husband and I were completely lifted out of Adventism and guided to Jesus was by reading the entire New Testament, book by book, over and overÖ. It was no study or argumentation that lifted us out, it was Godís Holy Word. About Corporate America and the SDA Church, all good gifts are from God. Take the good you learned and leave the rest behindJ God Bless you as you walk with Him. Lisa | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 326 Registered: 1-2003  |
Pauls, if you are comfortable doing so, I'd appreciate having your email so I can communicate with you a little. Some of what you say resonates with me. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2749 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pauls, God is working in your life. It's clear to me that He has taken you through many things that have both opened your eyes and burned you, and He is healing those wounds. He is faithful; He will continue to lead you and reveal truth. I have a very close friend whose story, while different in many ways, has a similar theme to your own. She asked to have her name removed from the Adventist "books" in her early 20's. She immersed herself in business as a real estate broker and learned to play hard ball with the most difficult clients and colleagues. One day in the early 80s, shortly after marrying a man who was then an alcoholic, she picked up Chuck Colson's book "Knowing God". When she finished reading, she knelt and gave her life to Jesus--telling him she would keep no one's rules and follow no one's demands. She would only do what He asked her to do. She began attending a local Christian church, crying through every service--to her puzzlement and astonishment. A few years later, as more and more of her life began to become disciplined, she returned to the Adventist church, no longer in rebellion. She became active as a Sabbath School teacher and eventually took a position teaching in an Adventist school. Meanwhile, her pursuit of God's word intensified. Increasingly, the Bible was becoming more and more clear, and she began reading some of the research done re: Ellen White. What she was reading in Scripture began to contradict EGW in more and more ways. Ultimately, in the late 90's, she left Adventism and has returned to the Christian church she attended 20 years ago. She has been up front with her employer about her non-SDA status and has nonetheless retained her job (it's at the university level). This is what she says today: I had to return to Adventism so I could learn what it really was. I left for all the wrong reasons. If I hadn't returned, I would still be angry and wouldn't really know why I had to leave. I had to understand its doctrines and claims in order to leave it for Jesus instead of in rebellion. The biggest difference between Ellen White and all the other Christian authors you named, Pauls, is that Ellen claimed she obtained her material from God. She claimed God's revelation for lifestyle and doctrinal directions which are opposed to Biblical revelation, and she also claimed God's revelation for the reversal of many of those messages. [Case in point: in the mid-1860s she claimed God showed her that "reform dress" was not to be worn by His people. Following her stay in Jackson's sanitarium in NY, I believe, she had a vision that God wanted His people to wear reform dress--but just a little longer than the common design. After producing patterns and dressing the SDA women in reform dress, she then had another vision in which God released her from reform dress, and with barely a word about it, she moved to California, quit wearing the garb, and Adventist women gradually quit wearing it also.] A secondary contrast between EGW and the other Christian authors mentioned is that they have not produced an opus of work which massively contradicts itself internally. While they may have changes of opinion, they explain that, but they tend to be internally consistent with themselves. The problem with Ellen is that she was not internally consistent, and she attributed her astonishing reversals and her sometimes destructive "testimonies" to God instead of owning them herself. She claimed to speak for God and to be His messenger. Other Christian authors do not make that claim. What I have found is that retaining respect for Ellen as a Christian author even if I don't honor her as a prophet forced me also to hold a low view of Scripture. If she truly wrote Godly material but I had to pick and choose which parts of it were for "today", I found I approached Scripture the same way. If, on the other hand, I take a high view of Scripture and see it as the "official" word of God preserved and intended for my own rule of faith and practice, I then have to submit every word I read from other authors to the Bible. I can't excuse other author's views by adjusting my reading of Scripture. When an author does not claim to speak for God, there's no real problem with dismissing the parts of their work that might not be Biblical. If the author claims to speak for God and disagrees with Scripture, however, I either have to decide that the author is not telling the truth and is therefore unreliable, or I have to adjust my view of the Bible. That author then becomes the foundation of my world view, not the Bible. If the Bible is my foundation of revealed truth, then I must submit all other authors to its revelations. I found it made a very BIG difference in my experience when I decided I had to take her own claims seriously. I couldn't just decide she was not a prophet based on my own exposure to her. She claimed to be more than a prophet. She claimed to be God's messenger. That claim underlay every word she wrote; she even said that either all of her words were from God, or none of them were. I had to evaluate her by her own claims. If she believed she spoke for God, then I had to evaluate her life's opus in reference to that claim. If she didn't square with Biblical truth, if she didn't meet the Biblical tests of a prophet, then she was not a messenger of God. Further, I couldn't just call her not-a-prophet. She clearly believed she was one, and she clearly had dreams and visions and a consistent "young man" who directed her in her dreams. I had to let her BE a prophet (or messenger) if that's what she claimed to be. My role, then, was to decide whether or not she was a true prophet of God or a false prophet. Seeing her as a false prophet rather than as "not-a prophet" completely changed the lens through which I saw every theological idea I had ever had. It was quite disrupting, but it has been an astonishing and worth-it "ride"! Praying for you, Pauls, and thanking God for His leading in your life, Colleen |
