| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1996 Registered: 11-2002 |
I read the Review and other SDA publications and I get the impression that the SDA denomination is growing in membership by leaps and bounds. Yet, when I go into an Adventist church it does not seem to me that the membership is increasing as people who once were active in any given parish may not be showing up anymore. Also, it seems to me the SDA schools at least at threw elementary and secondary levels are greatly declining. This really might be due to the cost of living in the United States being more and more out of a families income than the basics cost previousely more than declining membership. At the same time though from reading the Review I've pretty much made up my mind that the SDA denomination is pretty much becomming a third-world-nation denomination with membership increasing greatly in developing nations in which there is great desperation and poverty while at the same time the denomination is suffering from declining partisipation of members in the western nations. If my observations are accurate than are the SDA's in the western nations supporting the churches in the poorer countries? And since the SDA church teaches a mandatory 10% tithe plus they really press for a lot more money for this, that and the other then these really poor people in the really poverty stricken areas, where and how do they come up with the tithe they are supposed to pay? Does anyone on here have the numbers, the cold, hard numbers? | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 282 Registered: 2-2001 |
Susan, I do not have any numbers, but I do know that when we held Revelation Seminars, Ken Cox and Leo Screven seminars- we were a busy bunch- we may of started with several hundred on opening night but end up with a handful at best at the end. We found that the ones who were well versed in thier Bibles would not come back after a few nights. It was normally people who were down and uneducated that we could keep around. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2003  |
Susan I don't have facts or figures for the SDA church but many of the denominations here in the USA are growing most in South America and Africa. I heard a lady speak not many days ago who has "birthed" 100's of churches in Africa and God is working powerfully in her and her husbands ministry. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 200 Registered: 2-2005 |
A couple of years ago there was a Sabbath dedicated to personal giving. I think this was part of a push by the GC to beef up it's coffers by reminding people they need to be shelling out more to support "The Remnant". Our church presented a DVD obviously produced by the GC and part of a larger campaign and then had a sermon on giving. I found a website that I think is for that campaign (www.personalgivingplan.com/index.html). Here was the suggested giving as a percentage of your income: Tithe - 10% Local church - 3-5% Conference - 1-2% World budget- 1-3% Special projects - Depends on the need So then, if you max out on the suggested giving, you're handing over at least 20% of your income to the Adventist church. Hope that helps. Heretic | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 283 Registered: 2-2001 |
Heretic, Those were always the numbers where I grew up. If memory serves me it was the "8% plan" this was above your tithe. | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2005 |
I'm doing this from memory so my numbers may be a bit off, but they are pretty close. North America is less than 20% of the church population. Latin America is over 25%. Africa is catching up with Latin America. Europe is stagnant. I'll try to get more exact numbers in the next couple of days. North America is still the cash cow for the denomination, with most of the money (over 70%) coming from the good old USA. It will be interesting to see how anxious North America will be to keep on being the financial support for everything with a declining vote. Especially since the younger generation of SDA's is giving a much lower percentage of income compared to their parents generation. The Post WWII folks really gave a lot in both time and money. DT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2708 Registered: 12-2003  |
The latest Pacific Union Recorder reported on church growth figures given by Mark Finley during the GC session news updates this summer. I can't find the magazine now, but it reported that the church is losing 36% (it might have been slightly more or less, but it was over 30%) of its members annually. This figure appeared to quantify the numbers of those leaving officially as opposed to including those who quietly go AWOL. Here's the shocker: in the Pacific Union (includes California, Nevada-Utah, Hawaii, and Arizona), the annual percentage rate of member loss is 89%. I don't remember the percentage rates of new members--we know it's low in N America--but with these numbers its clear that there's a major hemorrhage in the Pacific Union. This is also the place where most young Adventists don't really know what the church believes--they just know they need the Sabbath, and they hear about grace a lot but in a setting closer to universalism than the true gospel. The question is where these people go. I doubt there's any follow-up data. About seven years ago, the figure was that only 2% of people who left Adventism actually ever attended a Christian church of another denomination later. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 307 Registered: 8-2004  |
And that doesn't count the kids raised in SDA families who never joined the church to begin with. Mary | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1919 Registered: 3-2004  |
When a person quietly slips away from the SDA church, from what I have seen, no one contacts them. That was my experience and I was active in my church. Just my thoughts. Diana | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 201 Registered: 2-2005 |
Colleen, So you're saying that almost 9 out of 10 existing members are leaving the Pacific Union every year? Can that figure really be correct? It just doesn't seem like it could be but maybe I'm just misunderstanding the data. Heretic | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2712 Registered: 12-2003 |
Heretic, I'm copying the passage below from the article in which the figures occur. This is copied from the October, 2005 issue of the Recorder: "Ernie Castillo, secretary of the Pacific Union, focused his report on information reported by Mark Finley during the recent General Conference session. According to Finley, during the last five years, five million people have been baptized into church membership, while 1.4 million have been dropped from membership ó a loss ratio of 27.7 percent. During that five year period, the loss ratio has increased from 20 percent in 2000 to 34 percent in 2004. Finley challenged church members around the world to study ways to retain members. "As Castillo reported at the previous committee meeting, the loss ratio in the Pacific Union is more than twice the international levels: 56 percent in 2000 and 89 percent in 2004. Committee members agreed that local conferences and churches should give serious study to this challenge, with special emphasis on retaining the churchís own youth and young adults." I goofed before--89% is a "loss ratio"--not a straight 89% loss. Sorry! Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on October 13, 2005) | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 202 Registered: 2-2005 |
Colleen, yeah those numbers make more sense, now. Thanks for clearing that up. So for every 1000 people baptized into the Pacific Union Conference, there are 890 leaving, a truly alarming rate no matter how you slice it if you're SDA leadership. Heretic | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2714 Registered: 12-2003 |
Right. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2003 |
Colleen, now the numbers make sense. While I know I'm not plugged into the mainstream of what is happening 89% lose of all members just didn't make sense. I can believe that here in this Union they might lose 89% of those newly baptised into the church. In talking to my parents they have mentioned pretty high numbers of new converts leaving that are newly baptised. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2002 |
Statistics given at the 2004 Annual Council. The following numbers represent membership and growth rates from June 2003 - June 2004. The Divisions are listed in order of Annual Growth Rate, the last two showing a net decrease. All growth rates are net. World Total: 13,663,497 Baptisms: 1,006,492 Net 12 month gain: 508,259 Southern Asia Total: 849,409 Annual Growth: 16.69% South America Total: 2,345,555 Annual Growth: 8.35% Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Total: 1,765,578 Annual Growth: 6.38% West-Central Africa Total: 707,276 Annual Growth: 5.62% Trans-European Total: 97,151 Annual Growth: 5.32% Inter-American Total: 2,504,422 Annual Growth: 4.11% East-Central Africa Total: 2,068,322 Annual Growth: 3.03% South Pacific Total: 368,682 Annual Growth: 1.73% Northern Asia-Pacific Total: 523,204 Annual Growth: 1.52% North American Total: 998,450 Annual Growth: 1.50% Euro-Africa Total: 171,076 Annual Growth: 0.79% Euro-Asia Total: 144,209 Net Decrease: 1.31% Southern Asia-Pacific Total: 1,120,163 Annual Decrease: 10.42% | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1116 Registered: 7-2003  |
I had a former SDA friend that said you can't even really count those kinds of numbers in true "growth" until you subtract out what he called the "incest" numbers. Those baptisms of current SDAs' children. That shows the real number of growth from outside adventism. Would anyone agree with that assessment? I doubt such numbers are kept, though. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2715 Registered: 12-2003 |
I suspect your friend is right, Melissa, because membership increase is calculated by numbers of baptisms. I suspect that the third world is where the most baptisms are occurring among those who are coming in from outside the churchósections of Africa, possible even South America--although by now, I suspect there are also quite a few "incest" baptisms as well in places like South America. Interesting. Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2002 |
Melissa, A statistical breakdown of baptisms by inside/outside category is not avaliable. Neither the General Conference, nor the Divisions collect information that detailed. I would be very surprised to find any conference that keeps that sort of info. Particularly in the third world countries. Many of them don't even have a listing of their church addresses. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm new here and was reading this. I found it very interesting. When I was first came to the church and was baptized over 15 years ago I had no biblical knowledge, so I accepted what I was told. About 2 months ago when I called around to the nearby adventist churches because I wanted to go back to church yet again, I spoke with one pastor who is building a church nearby our home. He told me how much the church was growing. Your statistics are very interesting. It is very sad though to think that there are so many people out there, perhaps such as myself, that aren't getting the real message about Christ. Here I am now, many years have past and I've wanted to be a sincere christian, but continued to struggle as more of a natural person trying to be a christian because the message just wasn't right. I wish my eyes were opened sooner. But I'll just move forward and pray for others like myself. I will try to unlearn some of what I've learned. It will take a little while though. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1923 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lynne, Colleen has a saying that I have taken to heart because it is so true. The saying is that "God redeems all of our past". What ever has happened to you in the past is not in vain. God can use it to help you grow and it will not be wasted. Just trust God and the Holy Spirit. God is awesome in all He does. Diana |
