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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 940
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |     |
That is the irony Ric. SDAs cannot recognize that they teach the same false gospel that Catholicism preaches as documented very well in Paxton's Shaking of Adventism.
Stan |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2032
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 6:39 pm: | |
The Truth or Fables website has a lot of interesting comparrisons of what ML says about himself to what EGW says about ML. It's an interesting website. |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 78
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:50 am: | |
I found the most amazing paragraph in the Luther book I'm reading
"Luther was thoroughly unsystematic in the use of money. He never sold a book or manuscript in his life, steadfastly refusing, although printers offered him hundred of dollars a year for his written works. These, he said, were the gifts of God and were not for sale. Nor did he receive a salary for teaching. He was supported after the break from the monastic order by an annual gift from the elector, which was increased steadily until it reached 400 gulden. But even with this he wrote a pathetic letter one day to a friend who had asked him for money, saying there was no money to be had - they were even pawning their wedding gifts. ....There were always friends and guests to be given lodging and food. Over the years eleven orphaned relatives found support in the Luther's home." Martin Luther by Edwin P. Booth, Published by Barbour 2003.
How can the contrast be more stark? Thank You Holy God for the rescue from the lies of Ellen White, and for bringing me and my family to FREEDOM and safely in YOU AND YOUR WORD ALONE.
Lisa
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2748
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
Lisa, I so relate to your reaction to the contrast and to your gratitude for God's rescue of you. It is amazing to me what cognitive dissonance I tolerated for so many years. Only a spiritual blndness can account for my lack of clarity on the true nature of Ellen and her doctrines.
Praise God for awakening me!
Colleen |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 325
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:20 am: | |
Lisa,
Just a couple days ago I ordered the book on ML that you are reading. I hope it will be here shortly. I also ordered a comentary that he wrote on Galations. I can't wait.
In Christ alone,
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:56 am: | |
Can I read Venden's 95 Thesis online? Can you list them? I've never heard of them before. What are they? |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 948
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:12 pm: | |
Richard,
You will really like those Luther books you ordered. The commentary on Galatians is a Christian classic. John Bunyan of Pilgrim's Progress fame said that commentary was second only to the Bible in his opinion.
Stan |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 333
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:47 am: | |
Richard-I have been reading the Commentary on Galations as well. I would highly recommend it to anyone, although it isn't something you can pound through in a couple of sittings. There are so many profound thoughts in a row, that sometimes I can only read a few pages at a time. |
Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 27
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 3:59 pm: | |
i'm not sure where to pose this question i have since it deals with soul sleep as taught by luther....question: it seems a lot of people don't agree with soul sleep but agree with luther. didn't he teach soul sleep, as evidenced by this quote:
Another place, proving that the dead have no feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, counting neither the days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall have seem to have slept scarce one minute. Martin Luther, "Exposition on Solomons Booke Called Ecclesiastes" Pg 152.
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Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 316
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:26 pm: | |
I have heard that Martin Luther's belief in soul sleep was a temporary belief. At one point, I tried to research on the web to find out what he believed and when, but it didn't look like an easy task.
Regardless of what Martin Luther believed, it is not a salvational issue, and I'd rather be grounded in what the Bible teaches than what any human believes. I would still think Martin Luther deserving of immense respect for his role in the Reformation, even if he had some beliefs I didn't agree with. For example, I don't agree with consubstantiation, but I do believe in other doctrines Martin Luther taught. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 341
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:37 am: | |
Pauls, I have attached a link from the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran website that addresses the issue of Luther's view of soul sleep.
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=78&cuItem_itemID=5626
I'm not sure how satisfactory this explanation may be, particularly without being able to read the quotation from Luther in context. Do you have a link to the document that is quoted? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2823
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 1:41 pm: | |
Ric, I appreciated the ending of the article you linked above. The writer concluded that the term "soul sleep" sometimes refers to a temporary state of annihilation or non-exitence instead of to a time when the soul "sleeps" and is not fully aware and hence should, perhaps, not be used because of the confusion.
I know of evangelical Christians who do espouse what they call "soul sleep", but they don't mean what Adventists mean. They still mean that there is an existing essence, a human soul or spirit, that survives the death of the body and awaits the resurrection. While I find Biblical evidence that suggests there is more awareness than this view implies, still I can live with this view in a fellow Christian.
Adventists, though, deny the existence of a literal soul or spirit that survives the death of the body. While they use the same words, they mean something different.
I like what Raven said above; I want to be grounded in what the Bible teaches rather than what any human believes.
Colleen |
Drpatti
Registered user
Username: Drpatti
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 4:56 pm: | |
Luther's "Tower Experience"
I skimmed this thread, and so I don't know if anyone has posted this yet or not, but here is a description of Luther's "Tower Experience" regarding Romans 1:16,17, in his own words. Well, in his words, translated.
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/tower.txt |
Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 1:45 am: | |
thanks, ric_b for that link...the term soul sleep seems misleading, because what the author of that link is talking about is soul annihiliation--sleep and annihilation are not the same thing...
I have re-read the 27 fundamentals, which I quote:
Conditional Immortality: At creation, God formed man of the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living being (Gen 2:7)....immortality is not innate to humanity but God's gift...[i insert this additional comment....they had to keep eating of the tree of life Gen 3:22, and God only has immortality 1 Tim 6:16) SDA Believe pg 350
resuming the quote---
The Nature of Death:...Death is a sleep. Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection. The Bible repeatedly calls this intermediate state a sleep......The Person returns to dust....the Spirit returns to God..There is no indication that the spirit or breath was a conscious entity separate from the body...SDA Believe pg 351-353
SDA's find two competing passages--the rich man and lazurus--which they understand as a parable based on a jewish mythology--whose subject is not the afterlife but about the finality of our life on earth--we must live for eternity with the choices we make now...and in Rev 6:10 where the souls of the slain cry for vengeance..which the SDA understands in the light of the "entire scripture" ascribing an interpretation which does not contradict other areas--meaning it is symbolic--just like in Gen 4:10--where the voice of Abel's blood cried from the ground....we often say "The facts speak for themselves--yet most facts have no mouth or voice!"
In luke 16 Jesus commended as shrewed the steward who was about to be fired by his master who seeing his fate, took his masters assets and gave them to his associates, so that when he lost his job--he would have some friends who "owed" him that he could fall back on....yet no one today would look up or consider as commendable on a person who stole from his boss so he could give gifts to another....stealing is stealing. the point of the parable was that the Jews were not wise by not considering where they were going in the long run/big picture...and making appropriate provisions for their future.
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Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 2:00 am: | |
i would like to throw some questions in about Luthor, I hope this is the right thread...
I was a litle disturbed thursday when a caller to Hank Hanegraafs' Bible Answer Man raised some concerns about Luther's teaching in several areas. (10/27/2005 first caller)
1. polygamy --apparently Luther endorsed it, or at least, said it was ok because he could not find a Bible command to prohibit it.
2. Use of a concubines in the event a wife is not cooperating in matrimonial matters, or as luther said ("a man's housemaid")
3. marriage to a young girl which was then kept secret from society at large. I assume this is dealing with statutory rape which apparently luther endorsed...
4. a prophecy he made which is clearly failed, which I will attempt to quote:
My words are the words of Christ. I am the mouthpiece of Christ...If my gospel is preached, within 2 years all popes, bishops, cardinals, statues, rules and vermin of the papal government will vanish like smoke.....
here is a link to the audio clip from the radio program:
http://www.oneplace.com/common/player/oneplace/CustomPlayer.asp?url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/swn/oneplace/wm/bam/bam20051027.wax&MinTitle=Bible+Answer+Man&MinURL=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible_answer_man/&MinArchives=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible_answer_man/archives.asp&Refresh=&AdsCategory=MINISTRY.BAM&Show_ID=243
Not addressed by the caller is the claim by Deitrich Bonnhofer in Cost of Dischipleship that Luther endorsed the use of confessional even after his separation from the catholic church....this is also troubling as it is not a part of New Testament theology--then again, what do we do with James 5:16 other than ignore it...
I understand the members of the body are all entitled to their own opinion, and we ought to give them charity and liberty as much as we can without compromising the fundamentals, but i am concerned a lot about his failed prophecy...here a man claims to speak for God and was clearly wrong.....Isa 8:20, and makes him subject to the same judgements we apply to other "prophets" who may also have been wrong....and makes them objects of the death penalty (Deut 18:22).
Does anyone have any wisdom or light on these particular subjects? Did luther really say this things? if this information is true, how is martin different from EG White?
Hank did not refute the caller's claims, but merely indicated he also had disagreements with martin, but that this should not detract from martin's honored status as the man who brought us the reformation.....
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Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 347
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 5:59 am: | |
How is Martin Luther different than Ellen White?
He didn't claim that truths were shown to him in visions by God and by angel guides. He didn't claim that the Holy Spirit was the co-author of his books. These are rather major differences. Ellen claims a level of authority based on the source of her writings. Martin Luther's claims to authority are based on what he understood Scripture to say, thus giving Scripture the authority.
I don't know about the first 3 statements, but I do have some comments about them as well as the 4th questions that you posed:
1) Monogamy is presented as God's ideal and the requirement for elders and deacons. But there is no Biblical mandate that polygamy is prohibited. Thus I would suggest that you need to look to the context of the discussion. I would be most displeased if you took my above comment away from this discussion and concluded that I supported polygamy.
2. What is your Scriptural basis that a concubine is prohibited? Please apply all disclaimers from point one.
3. What is the Scriptural age for marriage?
4. Again, look to the quote in context. Was it presented as a revelation, a vision, or a message that he was given from God. Or as a human boast? Was he suggesting that he was speaking words given directly to him for Christ. Or that the words he was speaking were the same words Christ spoke in the Gospels.
Bonnhofer is correct, Luther did endorse the idea of confessing sins to others, he did not endorse that a person forgave your sins or assigned penance and instead insisted that it was God's grace that forgave sins. James 5:16 is very relevant in this discussion. Lutherans still practice confession every week, but it is done as a group in part of the service. But this points out another difference between ML and EGW, Lutherans aren't forced to maintain everything that Luther taught or believed because they do not consider it given directly from God. Instead they can examine whether any teaching agrees with Scripture or not and accept only that which they conclude agrees. For instance, he personally continued to have certain RC views of Mary that have not remained part of the Lutheran church belief. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 961
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 12:17 pm: | |
Pauls, There are a lot of people out there who are currently trying to discredit the Reformation (see the PDL thread for direct evidence for that), and of course SDAs will try to discredit him. He was not perfect, but as Ric_b said, there is no evidence that he ever claimed to speak directly for God, the way EGW did. That prophecy that Luther gave may have not been too far off when you consider how fast the Reformation spread to the Western world. The effect of the Reformation message of justification by faith alone was to drastically limit the Pope's influence. If you get a chance, Pauls, I would strongly recommend that you get Luther's commentary on the book of Galatians, and see what the mature Luther really believed. His belief in soul sleep was only temporary, and he once believed in baptisimal regeneration, but gave that up. Luther's contribution to all of us was of unmeasurable worth. At the same time, he would not want people to follow him, but look to Christ and the Bible, and he said that many times. But, again, there is an unbelievable movement out there in pop Christianity which wants to declare the Reformation over, and that is what is going on with a lot of this.
Drpatti, it is good to see you back on this forum, and thanks for that link to Luther's Tower experience. I think I remember you saying that you were highly influenced by Paxton's "Shaking of Adventism", as I was, and that you said you were into Reformation theology.
Stan |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 93
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 1:41 pm: | |
Pauls,
If you will find a good book on Luther, these issues are addressed in context. He was not a prophet, never claimed to be. He also lived many generations ago when life was quite different. He was tore apart in his lifetime for these same issues, many misunderstandings, but what can be said for him that is not said for Ellen White is that he stood on the Scripture ALONE and all his beliefs were derived from the Bible including polygamy and confession. Yes, I see what you are trying to get at, but will not bite the bait as Jesus is my rock, not Luther. Confession is mentioned in the Bible ... confess your sins one to another that you may be healed... James something or another You seem to be a solid SDA from your thinking. God be with you.
LBD
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