| Author |
Message |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 100
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:25 am: |     |
What I can't understand is why SDA pastors move around SO much. In my area they can't keep a pastor for very long. One problem is that the pastor usually has to take care of 2 or 3 churches at once. How can he focus and keep it together? Then there is so much fighting within, and the ones who have money rule the church. I did not see unity when I used to be there, and each time I have spoken with a member they tell me all the problems within, and that the last pastor only lasted one year. He must have been a very conservative one because he was after the young girls for wearing nail polish! Oh my, when I left 3 years ago they were wearing jewelry. He must have had a fit. Anyway, apparently he drove the church apart...and such is the way things are around here. I can't see any of them prospering unless they are in the college areas. Just my observations.
Bb |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2007
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:42 pm: | |
On the other thread the discussion is about baptism. I have noticed that many SDA's get baptized SDA numerous times. When the SDA organization figures their newly baptized to they count those who are being rebaptized as SDA? Because if they do then that alone would way inflate ihe membership and the baptism numbers. I actuaklly met a SDA lady who told me she had been baptized in the SDA church four times! So, does the denomination count her as four people when they produce their official membership numbers? And, really, when we take communion we are renewing our vows before man and God but the question goes back to the numbers. Anyone know? Colleen? |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 86
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 2:23 pm: | |
They don't count membership by baptism. It is actually counted by membership. If a person transfers to another church leaving their membership in the old church and joining the new church on profession of faith, or through baptism, they would have a dual membership and thereby skew the numbers. People are not supposed to do this, and when they join the new church, the old church is supposed to be notified. If a person stops attending for a period of time, the church is supposed to drop their membership in order to avoid this problem. Rebaptism into the church where membership is currently held does not create a new membership. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 9:15 am: | |
Bb, I have had similar thoughts regarding longevity. B's church has had the same pastor the entire 6 years I've known him. But his dad (who is an SDA pastor) has been in 3 different locations in that same time period. And as you said, he has had multiple churches in each location. I'm not sure how you can get a good congruency happening when leadership changes that frequently. On the otherhand, at Bs church, lots of different people preach, not just the pastor. That is strange to me too. Neither of those situations necessarily define "normal", I just find it interesting. |
Marcell
Registered user
Username: Marcell
Post Number: 69
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 9:27 am: | |
Ha- the church is SUPPOSED to drop your membership, but I had to write them three times to get them to do it. I got mailings, etc. for years. And, of course, when we stopped going, no one called us. And I had been going to that church off and on for over 20 years - my dad went to college with the elders, I went to academy and college with folks there, etc. The new pastor called me when he came to town - I had never met him. I let him come over and explained that we were no longer SDA, etc. Poor guy - I really liked him, he was young and I could tell he was really wanting to change things - good luck with that.
I had to write a pretty vehement letter to FINALLY get our names removed. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2737
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
When I was younger, Adventists used to discuss openly the SDA practice of moving pastors from church to church every few years. The rationale behind those moves was so the members didn't get attached "to a person". They would move the pastors around so the people would keep their focus "on God" instead of "following a man".
In reality, they were, I believe, avoiding any one church developing more power and internal strength and indentity than the conference could handle. If a church developed strong connections to a pastor, that church could begin to insist on certain things it might want, and it could even, perhaps, begin to "vote" with its tithes/offerings.
It has been a way to keep the local churches from becoming too powerful and allowing the conference "brethren" to protect their positions and power and even to pad their own pockets. There's much less accountability all around if a church cannot identitfy with a pastor and if it's always being kept off balance.
Colleen |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 70
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:27 am: | |
ìÖinformation reported by Mark Finley during the recent General Conference session. According to Finley, during the last five years, five million people have been baptized into church membership, while 1.4 million have been dropped from membership ó a loss ratio of 27.7 percent. During that five year period, the loss ratio has increased from 20 percent in 2000 to 34 percent in 2004. Finley challenged church members around the world to study ways to retain members.î
I think the best way to retain members Mr. Finley, would be to straighten the path, tell the truth, correct the error, give the Lordship of Jesus Christ THE priority, FLUSH the false prophet, become the SERVANT of the world rather than the "special onesî, LET GO OF "POWER" IN EXCHANGE FOR CHRIST. Then you would have no problem retaining true followers of Christ, and would cease leading the weak ones astray "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear." Acts 15:10. SDAíS say we believe in the Bible only. Try that concept out and see what happens. Trust God, not manipulation and fear. I DARE YOU, IF YOU ARE READING THIS, TO CONSIDER PRAYERFULLY THESE RECOMMENDATIONS.
And for all FAF's, PRAISE GOD FOR THE LOUSY RETENTION RATE INSIDE THE SDA CHURCH. God is working. I'd sure love to see the denomination saved, but more than that, the people inside the denomination.
A sister In Christ,
Lisa
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Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 700
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 12:00 pm: | |
Hear-Hear, Lisa. Perhaps we should just copy your message and drop it into an email to Amazing Facts!
Belva |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2023
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 12:11 pm: | |
I went to Truth or Fables last night and read the article on Tithes. It answers my question and yes, according to that article the SDA church has investments in hog farms, fast-food reastruants and all sorts of businesses the church doesn't want its members to take part in. It is very interesting. Lisa, what you wrote above is 100% truth. |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 72
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 4:26 pm: | |
How could I get that address for Amazing Facts? I'd sent it in a heart beat.
Lisa |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2740
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 4:30 pm: | |
Lisa, I'm sure it's online. Just do a Google search, and you'l find their website. For that matter, they probably have email, too--but snail mail might be more likely to be seen by the eyes you wish to see it.
From my experience working in a TV ministry, it's not likely Finley would see any of the mail unless they showed him mail marked "personal". I can't guarantee he'd even see it then, but the chances are better.
Keep us posted!
Colleen |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 87
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 8:49 pm: | |
Finley isn't with Amazing Facts. Thats Doug Bachelor. Finley has left It Is Written to take a position as Vice President of the General Conference. He can be reached at:
Mark Finley
General Conf of SDA
12501 Old Columbia Pike
Silver Spring, MD 20904
I would suggest writing him with very specific questions and suggestions. If he doesn't answer, it was only 37 cents. If he does, well, that would be very interesting. |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 204
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 9:57 pm: | |
Bb, I can identify with your post about the in-fighting. Every Adventist church I've been a member of has had tremendous in-fighting, usually regarding legalistic issues. And almost invariably the ones who hold the purse strings seem to be the most conservative/historical, vocal people (usually a minority) in the church and have the most influence because of it. Well, I suppose at least they're puting their money where their mouths are.
I've also noticed when I was SDA that whenever I'd be talking to someone about the church and this dysfunctional dynamic, almost always it was dismissed as being something that just happens everywhere "in any church" and we need to just live with it. When I told my SDA co-worker that legalism hasn't been an issue in our new church, he's adamant that all churches are and it's only a matter of time before it becomes evident. I think it's hard for lifelong Adventists to imagine that it could be any other way.
Heretic |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2742
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:02 pm: | |
Oops, you're right, Derrell! Thank you!
Heretic, I know what you're talking about. I've pondered that Adventists always counsel us not to look to people but to look to Jesus. Actually, that advice is backwards from the New Testament admonitions. Jesus said to let our lights shine so our Father in heaven would be glorified, and Paul told Christians to live lives worthy of the gospel so they would not bring dishonor to the name of Jesus.
Of course, we are to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, but we are also supposed to be able to learn from other believers and be role models ourselves.
Colleen |
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 88
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 12:14 am: | |
All the churches I went to as a kid seemed to be dying out. The churches consisted of a lot of old people, with a few young couples with very young kids. The teens and middle aged people were all missing! Of course, they were all smaller churches.
In the larger churches, especially in the SDA "ghettos", the poplulation was much more spread out.
What I felt was interesting was the difference in doctrinal flavor. The smaller churches were conservative, and apparently less appealing, while the bigger churches were more liberal.
I was shocked, shocked, I tell you, by some of the "blasphemous" things that went on in the larger churches! Fortunately, I've left my petty thinking far, far behind me. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 372
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:55 pm: | |
It's hard to generalize about pastors moving around. My former academy principal has been at a SDA church in the Silicon Valley area now for 16 years!
A very good friend of mine who is an SDA pastor has been in the same area but pastoring different congregations for almost ten years now.
From what I've seen, a lot depends on:
1. How well the church and pastor get along.
2. How the pastor likes the area. Pastors are always getting calls to another congregation. They may like another area of the country better and decide to move---especially after their kids are gone off to college.
3. Redemptive transfers---lots of reasons for these, including pastors that can't control their kids and the church wants them gone. This is often a reason for a pastor being in a locale for a short time.
4. Talent! The best and brightest are usually ladder climbers and the G.C. does it's best to ensure that the ladder is made available.
The only other denomination that I have had any experience with is the Southern Baptists and they seem to move pastors around quite a bit as well. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1139
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:37 am: | |
But the southern baptist pastors aren't employed by the denomination. They are paid and supported by local congregations. Their ability to move to a different location is based soley on the individual church, not anything from the administrative hierarchy. I think the average stay may be 3-5 years, dependent upon the region. But I've seen the exception where pastors were in one location for 15-20 years or more. (from one born and raised primarily in SB churches  ) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2780
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 12:48 pm: | |
Interesting difference, Melissa--SBs are paid by local congregations, not the denomination--unlike Adventist pastors.
Colleen |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 102
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:20 pm: | |
Our Southern Baptist preacher has been here for at least 15 years! Maybe the SDA ones don't like this area, because there have been so many. |
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