| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1101 Registered: 7-2003  |
Perhaps that's where the confusion was initially...most of my comments were related to the article, not your post. I never would have gone into my quandries with the article had I known you hadn't read it. I understand the issues of those concerned with the so-called seeker movement. Some I agree with, some I think are negative purely to be negative. The largest church in my area is a moderately liberal methodist church. It has something like 12,000 members, which is pretty big in the greater Kansas City area. Your ability to see your wife's situation is mostly different from mine. We all come to these discussions with our baggage hanging around, and I'm no different. Maybe Rachel's a bad measure. Most of the time, I have accepted her as the result of a fallen world, but to say her situation is God's will is to say that if no sin existed in the world, he would make her MR/DD. Maybe my understanding of what "will" means is flawed, but to use the Job example, God did not tell Satan what to do to Job, so in that respect, what happened to Job was the result of evil in the world. That is vastly different than saying God wanted Satan to kill 10 of Job's kids and destroy his livelihood, etc... you get the idea. I can say God "allowed" it and see that in scripture, but I do not see that God willed it, in that it is what he wanted to happen to Job. And maybe that's where I struggle with the calvinist position overall. It's not that I think God couldn't control it, it's that I think he choose to allow other factors to play out. I am at peace he knows the beginning from the end, so I'm sure he knows what the situation is going to result in the end, but to say he "wills" it to me says he "wants" it rather than "allows" it. And it's not just in that article, but in any article that would insinuate that God "wants" tragedy, either personally or globally, it's not going to sit well. One tv commentator noted that if God was judging New Orleans he missed...the French quarter was basically unharmed, and many churches were completely flooded. Maybe I just have growth I need to do in that area. Or maybe God really doesn't really "want" my daughter to spend her life in misery, it's just in some greater design somehow. I have to be able to personalize it to understand it, so sorry I can't keep it 3rd person. I don't mean to sound insensitive to my daughter. The opposite is quite true. And Raven, please, jump in. Most the time I'm just thinking "out loud" trying to reconcile what I read with what I've "believed" to this point in life. Someday, Stan and I might completely agree  ! Or maybe we'll get to heaven and laugh at how we were both wrong! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 878 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Melissa, and we do see through a glass darkly at times. None of us have all the answers. We definitely see this article from different perspectives. You were right in predicting that I would agree with this article. But look again at the last two paragraphs. There is that great paradox where God is not the author of evil, but he wills all things and works all things out according to His purpose. I also like the way Challies related all suffering to the cross of Christ. Yes, it was God's will that Christ suffer the ultimate insult, and He is with us in our sufferings. We just see this from different perspectives, but I don't claim to be able to explain it. With the example of Rachel, I think Challies was saying God did not author that evil, but He is ultimately in control of everything that happens in this world, and works in all evil to work out everything for good as Romans 8:28 declares. It still does not make suffering in any capacity easy. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2679 Registered: 12-2003  |
I really have no idea how to reconcile the apparent paradox between evil and God's sovereignty. Over the yearsóbeginning with my experiences with my first real teaching job at Gem State Academy and--well, never really ending after that!--I have struggled deeply over the reality of life-warping child abuse hidden inside "model" families, about the resultant fallout that not only the children but all those they love have to wade through and "deal" with--and, unless the victims discover the sovereign love of God and surrender their wounds to Jesus, they will likely perpetuate the trauma for generations to come. I am beginning to find peace in realizing that God is the ultimate "value" in the universeónever humans. He promises healing, redemption, justice, and glory, but these things do not culminate until His return. All the deeply tragic and unfair things that happen to us and to those we love ultimately become avenues for God to reveal His glory and justice. Now I can tell that I'm sounding trite and full of platitudes, so I probably should stop before I sound even worse. I just don't even know how to talk about this, because I know the deep, never-really-ending pain of trauma on innocent victims. I also have glimpsed the redemption of some of that painóbut the injustice and the consequences and the never-resolved relationships that can linger stand as memorials to the unavoidable reality of evil in this world. Still, knowing that God wastes nothing and redeemes everything we submit to Him has made life seem much less random. And knowing that the ultimate concern in the universe is the glory of Godóand every human that ever lives will have some part to play in revealing and testifying to that glory because God "works out everything in conformity to the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:11) has given me the ability to begin to let go of the struggle to understand how it all works. I have to trust Himóand He is faithful, and He will redeem those who have suffered for His glory. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1102 Registered: 7-2003 |
Your son's article was very nice Colleen. I'm sure you were quite proud of him. He shows a lot of maturity and insight for his young years... | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 307 Registered: 1-2003  |
I havenít had time to read most of the posts but saw one comment that brought some ideas to mind. ìhe would preach pop psychology from the pulpit, but once people were in the doors, then they would hopefully be led to some serious Bible study. I don't know. I just don't see a Biblical model for this.î The Biblical model I see is Christ himself. His sermons were not usually expository. He taught by telling stories and using examples from everyday life to make His points. He addressed the issues of the common man in simple language, which at the same time expressed layers of revelation and truth that were not readily apparent. Christ also addressed the felt needs of His audience. As our model, when they were sick he healed them. When they were hungry He fed them. These are the same types of things that Rick Warren and Bill Hybell do as ministries in their churches. They see the needs of the people and help to fill them. They repair cars, paint houses, and deliver food to those in need among other things. Church is not just worship, singing and Bible study. It is a community lifting HIM up and ministering to others for His glory. Building this type of community is the mission of both BH and RW. As a teacher Iím constantly reminded that each individual learns in often unique and different ways. Some here might discover truth through inductive study, some through the stories they read in the Bible. Some are drawn to God by the lives of those they see who live a Christ like life. God reveals the truth of who He is in a variety of ways. A personal note, while I value inductive study of scripture Iím most touched, listening/reading of the journey of others in their walk with Jesus. I was greatly moved reading a book written by a former SDA minister detailing how he transitioned out. It was a very Christ centered story and shared both the struggle and joy of his journey. God has ìspokenî to me in many ways. Iím sure that Iím moved and touched in ways that might be different than how He reaches others here but they are still a ìGod thingî. Well enough for now. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2004 |
What about Joel Olsteen? I firmly believe he is so popular because of his "prosperity theology". I can listen to him preach a whole sermon on how to improve your life here on earth...i.e. he told about one man who gave his life to God and then won the lottery! As if all your troubles will go away and your life (earthly life) will improve! Then at the very end of each sermon he offers a call to let Jesus into your heart. It is very weak and shallow to me. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 879 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Richard, Welcome back. That quote that you took from one of my posts was what Schuller actually did for years at the Crystal Cathedral (aka catastrophe) Schuller's brand of pop psychology and self-esteem has been deemed heretical by most responsible voices in Christendom. I don't think you intended to compare Schuller to the teachings that Jesus did in parables. Richard, I hope that you get a chance to read the posts and links. No one has ever argued that we shouldn't take care of the needs of people. What Rick Warren did was do extensive polling to find out what people want in church, and he gave them the music they wanted, as well as the positive, practical sermons, and by doing that he built the largest church in America. There are reams of documentation on his Wall Street marketing techniques, and his dependence on modern psychological techniques as well. Also, Richard, you said that Jesus didn't do much expository teaching. The sermon on the mount is a great example as to how He amplified the scriptures of the OT. Also check out Jesus' sermon in John 6. 5000 people started out listening to Him and by the time He finished that famous sermon on pre-destination there were only the 12 left. Jesus was not very seeker sensitive, as His very difficult teaching that salvation was entirely by grace, and the message that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him, and that all that the Father gave Him would come to Him. That message today is still very unpopular. If you want to empty a room today in Christian circles, then bring up the doctrine of pre-destination! That is what Jesus did, then look what happened. Then, look at the story of the money changers in the temple, (and sadly so much of evangelicalism looks like the moneychangers in the temple today) but He wan't the gentle Jesus, meek and mild on that day. The whole book of John is one of the most magnificent doctrinal treatises imaginable. That is why I say, if churches would have Gospel of John studies instead of studies revlving around certain other non-biblical books, then we would have a much more Biblically literate society. Sorry Richard, if this sounds mean, I certainly don't mean it that way. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2680 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, thank you for your comments about Roy. I am very proud of him, and you're right--he has unusual discernment and perception for his age. Roy is an absolute miracle. Discovering the forgiveness and love of Jesus has completely transformed him from the bouncing-off-the-walls, angry child he was. I still cry when I watch him playing the piano and worshiping in church. Twelve years ago I would never have guessed what a kind, gentle heart he has. His love of Scripture and his deep understanding of it have been key factors in his growth and healing. I praise God for Roy and for Nathanael. If I had ever doubted God's power, His work in their lives would be enough to convince me of His ability to transform and redeem us! He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 880 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bb, Thanks for bringing up Joel Osteen into this discussion of weak evangelical teaching. Joel Osteen is as bad, if not worse than Schuller. Osteen has a huge mega-church that meets in a sports arena in Houston. You are absolutely right, he is as shallow and phony as these teachers come. The so-called Christian world is wandering after these slick teachers who give them what their itching ears want to hear. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1103 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think it's a mistake to put Bill Hybels and RW in the same category as a Joel Olsteen and Robert Schuller. Bill and Rick may be trying to meet the needs of the people and to "do" church in a way that meets those needs (again, I find nothing in scripture that says there is the "right" way to do church, though I would hope we'd not look like moneychangers in the temple...I don't think it was their presence, but their cheating people that was the issue..."den of theives"), they are not changing the gospel. The other two and countless of other so-called theologians are teaching a health and wealth theology or a sort of vending machine or fairy land christian experience that is clearly contrary to scripture. As a single parent, I though it was a great outreach to change the oil in single mom's cars, or provide babysitting or some of the other things our church has tried. But not everything we've tried as had much success in our area. My pastor still believes it's better to have people doing their activities in the church building than out in the secular environment. If people will come for one type of thing, perhaps they will be more willing to come through the doors to find out what motivates such love. He believes relationships is what brings people to want Christ, not some "program". He, also, thinks its a better use of God's facilities. If the Bible doesn't mandate against it, I don't know why some people's personal preferences should take precidence. My music pastor, who obviously has only interacted with the Willow Creek and Saddleback musicians in the church with any time, says their musicians are some of the most dedicated and Spirit-filled individuals he's met. He says they're the "real deal", not merely performers. Their personal witness to him was not anything like the shallowness some seem to insinuate such a way of "doing" church would produce. Their example is one of the reasons we have an extensive testimony conversation prior to being accepted on the ministry team. He wants us to be "real" when people see us on stage or out in the community. People can speculate about a system all they want, but it would seem best to examine their fruit before being extremely judgmental about their techniques. (Message edited by melissa on October 08, 2005) (Message edited by melissa on October 08, 2005) | ||
| Melinda Registered user Username: Melinda Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi Stan, I'm usually a very quiet person, and don't really butt into conversations. This is one thread that I don't certainly don't ever comment on. However, I guess I'm a little upset because it seems as if you label people as "heretics" if you don't agree with them. I guess if you were living at my house, I would tell you the same thing I tell my kids. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Or I would give you 50 sentences, "Only nice words will come out of my mouth." I believe it's Biblical that God can use whoever He jolly well pleases. If God wants to use Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Joel Olsteen, Joyce Myers, etc., then let Him! Who are we to say anything otherwise? When we were first leaving Adventism, we visited a different church every week for about 3 months. We visted Baptist, Church of God, Methodist, Non-denominational, even Adventist at Christmas time when my in-laws were here. And you know what? EVERY SINGLE SERMON was on the same topic, something that we knew God was trying to tell us! I'm not kidding! It was so cool! There was one time in my life that God was impressing something on me for several days. I kept seeking confirmation from God. One day I turned on the TV and JM was on, reading a scripture. God spoke to me through that scripture. What if I had immediately changed the channel because it was Joyce? (And please don't flame me about Joyce. I already know everyone's opinion about her.) Not too long ago, I was feeling guilty because I felt that if I was a better mother, then there wouldn't be all the turmoil going on at my house. One day, a neighbor came over to my house and she was wearing a shirt that said, "I'm not perfect, just forgiven." Later that day when I was on some errands, a car was in front of me with a bumper sticker that said "I'm not perfect, just forgiven." Later that day, I passed a church that said... you guessed it. "I'm not perfect, just forgiven." I saw it a few other places the same day. There's no doubt in my mind that it was God speaking to me. I've had God speak to me through music. I've had God speak to me in the movie, "Incredibles." I've had Him speak to me through alien movies, which I normally don't like to watch! I guess my point is, the beauty of the Holy Spirit is that He will speak to us any way He can. And if He wants to use these people that you have branded as Heretics, than I'm going to listen. I will trust the Holy Spirit to filter the truth from the error. We need to be careful to listen to our hearts/spirits and not just the head knowledge. I'm not trying to be mean, Stan. I hope you forgive me if I have stepped out of line. I guess I just get tired of reading it over and over on here. Sometimes I feel as if it would be better if I didn't read this website at all. I grew up with total head knowledge about God. That's all I knew. Now that I'm free from Adventism, I've been experiencing the heart knowledge, and it's a wonderful thing. I don't ever want to lose it. Melinda | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1975 Registered: 11-2002 |
Riverfonz, You mentioned above that the minister gives his congreation what they want to hear. I guess when you really get down to the nitty-gritty of why I joined the Lutheran church it is because week after week I hear what I want to hear-grace, the Apoltle's Creed, the Our Father,good old fashioned sung from the heart hymms and so on. One time several years ago the pastor where I attend deviated from his usual grace theme for the sermon and gave a rip-roaring you're going to hell sermon about the people of God committing adultry with each other while showing the community what pious people they are. I was really taken aback by that sermon and on the way out the door as I was leaving I said to the minister, "That was quite a sermon. You must know some things going on that I don't know about. " He replied, "Yes, I do but I hope you learned a good lesson about sin anyway." But, mostly it's grace each week. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 881 Registered: 3-2005 |
So on the last two posts, I see Melissa saying that RW doesn't belong in the same category as Schuller or Osteen, which I at this point agree with. Then Melinda says that Shuller, Osteen, and Meyers are all used of God. Melinda, do you realize that Joyce Meyers teaches a damnable heresy that our wonderful savior had to go to hell to be tortured and become born again in hell? Are you kidding? Where does this teaching that Benny Hinn, and all his other false prophet friends come from? It is from the great Deceiver, and is a doctrine of Demons. Schuller says it is un-Christian and uncouth to ever mention the wrath of God. His self-esteem theology is the epitome of a man centered and self absorbed religion. The Crystal Cathedral stands as a monument to the great false religion of self-esteem. Also, it is well documented that Schuller has a direct connection to the New Age movement. Occultic groups such as "Course in Miracles" are allowed to be taught there. Norman Vincent Peale who was Schuller's mentor denied the bodily resurrection of Christ. One of the members of our FAF Bible study handed out CDs last night with a real eye-opener lecture by John MacArthur of www.gty.org or Grace to you ministries, and I am sure many of you have heard his national radio broadcast. He is a true prophetic voice today trying to bring the evangelical world back to the honest deep study of the Bible. He is very disturbed by the lack of discernment in the evangelical church today, and has been a critic of RW, and the seeker movement because of trends to de-emphasize expositional teaching of the Word. He is not afraid to go on Larry King and say it like it really is. He doesn't try to dodge questions about whether Jesus is the only way the way Joel Osteen did recently. He will not go on Larry King like Billy Graham did and extol the virtues of the late Pope, saying that the Pope was born again and saying that Catholicism is a true religion. This particular CD was specifically about Catholicism and it should be heard by every former SDA, and every Catholic. If you could only hear the reams of documentation that MacArthur gave on how apostate Pope John Paul really was. He was a Mary worshipper, he denied the all-sufficiency of Christ, he was a modified universalist the way liberal pastors in Adventism are. But the evangelical world including Billy Graham literally bowed down to this pope when he passed away. If Adventism is false, then Catholicism is false. They both have the same doctrine of faith plus works for salvation. At Billy Graham crusades, when Catholics respond to Graham's message, well, the couselors send them back to their same corrupt and idolatrous religious system. Where is any discernment left today in the Christian world? Melinda, I appreciate you coming on to express your feelings. In no way do I want to be interpreted as unloving or judgmental. Most of us came out of a judgmental legalistic system in SDA, and if you read my story in the previous Proclamation, you will see that is where I am coming from. Some have asked me why I am here posting on this forum, and why do I bother with a FAF Bible study, since I am 23 years removed from Adventism and have theologically moved on. Well, I honestly feel the Lord's leading to be involved with this FAF ministry. I do have a burden for my friends and family who are still in a false theological system. I am also perplexed by those who have left Adventism, now listening to other voices that are every bit as phony as what I heard in Adventism. The Lord has given me this intense desire to study the Bible and brought me back from a backslidden state about one year ago. I am concerned when I read posts above stating that God speaks to people in all these various ways. Because He is sovereign over all, yes He does save people who read Desire of Ages by EGW, but does that justify the means? I am amazed at the double standard. EGW is really bad, but Joel Osteen is being used of God. God has saved people through all of the false ministries mentioned above, but that doesn't mean that He approves of the Pope, Benny Hinn, EGW, Schuller, or Osteen. (notice I left Warren out of that list). I have noticed among many former Adventists a lack of grounding in the scripture. Doctrine isn't very important to so many. What I am saying about SDA, and formers is in fairness true in popular evangelicalism. It is so much easier to do a book study revolving around the 15 interpretations and paraphrases of Mr Warren, than it is to do an inductive Bible study like Colleen is teaching at our FAF study. I know what I said above may be offensive to some. But, the opinions I express are my own based on years of observation, and a lot of study. I know my views are not the popular views being expressed today, but I don't care about sounding politically correct or popular. After sounding so negative for so long, I want to express positive things. The Bible should be our primary source of study, but there are a lot of great ministries and books out there that are so worthwhile, and their authors rightly divide the word of truth. These are only suggestions, but they have been very helpful in my spiritual journey. A classic book is "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer. This book is easy to read, and expresses so eloquently what it is to know God. Another one is "Desiring God" by John Piper. Another is "Grace Awakening" by Chuck Swindoll. Another is "Knowing Scripture" by R.C. Sproul. Great radio ministries are J.Vernon Mcgee (I would love to hear what he would have to say about some of modern evangelicalism), another radio ministry is John MacArthur mentioned above, and Alistair Begg which was mentioned yesterday. And of course, Swindoll. All of the above ministries make God the central purpose of worship and life, and not ourselves. I am sure many others have suggestions that you would like to add to my list. But, if anyone wants to criticize my list, then feel free. I love the dialogue on this forum, and I thank Richard and Colleen for the opportunity this forum gives. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1976 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stan, I haven't a clue about most the people you mention. Buit, I did buy some Bible study books by Vernon McGee several years ago and I ended up tearing each one in half and tossing the halves in the trash. I don't like watching WSchuller at all. However, my SDA relatives set aside Suinday mornings so they can catch his Crystal Catherral program. It comes on right after the Mark Findley program. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1896 Registered: 3-2004  |
As I was reading this thread I remembered the Christmas program I went to at the Crystal Cathedral in Orange County in Dec 2000. I remember thinking, I want to join this church. Their Christmas pageant brought me so close to God, I wanted to join at that moment. Then I remembered I lived in VA and the Sabbath crossed my mind. That pageant really made Christ alive to me. Just my 2 cents worth. Diana | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 308 Registered: 1-2003 |
Melinda, thank you so VERY much for your post here. I've needed to hear this so much this morning. Like you I came from a "head knowledge" into a "heart knowledge" of who my Savior is. Most of this "heart knowledge" was "learned" in the time I was not attending SDA churches and in fact wasn't even attending church much at all for about 10 years. I'm so blessed now to know others who believe in the real live work of the "Spirit of God" working in and through me/us to do HIS work of change. It is totally not me but HIM alone. My theological understanding is of no value if I do not have God's heart to look at others around me. He died for me when I was wretched and sinful. He calls me to to see the lost in the same loving way. This same spirit needs to be exhibited when we talk of those we do not agree with scripturally and this includes those within the SDA church. I want to mention one name. I've been so blessed by the spirit I see in FlyingLadys posts. She has such a heart for those in the SDA church. I just want to say thank you publicly and ask God's blessing on her and her prayer ministry. She is not the only one that exhibits this spirit of love and intercession but she is the one who comes to mind most often. There are some that "appear" to lack this spirit but I can't read others hearts so I don't really know, I can only read the words and not the hearts. There if more on my heart but I'm "being told" to shut up. God is working in and through ALL of us. In Christ, Richard Flyinglady please email me. rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1898 Registered: 3-2004 |
Richard, Thank you, but I cannot take credit for what God has done through me. It is God's Spirit working through me. I am so very thankful that His Spirit is seen through me. I am humbled by that. I did write to you and hope you received the e-mail. Never forget that we have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 464 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, We received the latest Proclamation magazine yesterday--amazingly fast compared to usual. It is another excellent issue. By the way, as my wife glanced through it, she immediately recognized one author who had chased her through several classrooms at an SDA college with a dead mouse (smile). Apparently, he was aware of her fear of mice. The truth is that Sylvia's phobia of mice has never left her to this day. :>) Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 882 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard, I am sorry if I am one that you perceive as not appearing to have a certain spirit. I believe we are living close to the end of this age, and I believe Jesus warnings about false prophets who will come with increasingly subtle deceptions, and be sheep in wolves clothing is being fulfilled before our eyes. If you don't see this danger, then that is fine. I have been concerned Richard for a long time about the particular congregation you attend. They claim to have SDA affiliation, but the doctrinal statement that was posted several months ago on another thread would not qualify to be even within the pale of anyone's definition of orthodoxy. Everyone isn't already saved like they claim. Sometimes, the only loving thing to do is to express the truth, and if it comes off as unloving, then so be it, I don't know any other way to express it. We have had good fellowship at late night dinners at Coco's after FAF Bible studies, and I think you know that in person I am not as it might appear on this board. I don't know how to use the smileys! There is an objective guide to what is true in the Bible, and if I see a ministry or group that is far enough outside certain well established theological boundaries, then it is our duty as Christians to speak up about it. On the CD I referred to by John MacArthur on my last post, he gave a stinging indictment of Catholicism. He said the most loving thing to do is to tell Roman Catholics the truth, instead of lovingly re-assuring them that they are our brothers and sisers. Most everything he said about Catholicism could be said about Adventism. I have to admit I was wrong on one thread when I expressed the view that I didn't believe that the pope could be the anti-christ. I now have to retract that statement after hearing this CD last night. It is ironic that Adventism may have been right about Catholicism with regard to how false and idolatrous that system really is. But Adventism couldn't realize that they were staring right into the eyes of that beast, and couldn't see it in themselves. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 884 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, Please tell me why you tore up J.Vernon McGee's material and threw it in the trash. That makes me sad, as I would have loved to have it. I don't understand how it would be possible to do that, but you are welcome to explain to me why you didn't like it. Stan |
