| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 860 Registered: 3-2005 |
I know I am probably beating this drum too loudly, but the concerns of so many godly spokesmen about this entertainment seeker centered phenomenom are continuing to surface. You may have read R.C. Sproul's article above, but that was from 2001. But here is a fresh hot off the press release by John Piper of www.desiringgod.org who has spent his whole pastoral ministry concentrating on glorifying God. He has not commented too much in the past about seeker centered ministries, but now he is reflecting on his perception that this emphasis on being seeker centered instead of God centered is actually creeping into attitudes towards missions, and as a result, the gospel is being watered down, and the Bible is not taught with clarity. Here are his reflections on this movement at www.desiringgod.org/library/fresh_words/2005/092805.html Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1090 Registered: 7-2003  |
Stan, you crack me up!!! I just read that earlier today. I thought his sermon for the week was particularly ironic too....Romans 14:1-9. Ha! He mentions the next sermon would be on the sabbath itself, and I can't wait to read that one. Please don't faint, but I don't dispute the questions and concerns he raises. What I do challenge is the presumption that people somehow don't care about God, their spiritual growth, because they've read these books and some of them found value in them. I personally just don't get the idea from listening to RW personally that he's got the goal of minimizing Christ, the cross or the scripture. Some of the other generalizations that always seem attached to the so-called "seeker movement" also irritate me. For example, the attacks on varying music styles. I disagree that someone has to be in a particular style of worship service for God to be honored or genuinely worshipped... (that's found where in scripture??). Afterall, David danced naked before God ... seems scripture is pretty open if even that was ok. If I don't like the music style or am uncomfortable in the service, it's really hard to worship. I feel my worship experience is far more heart-felt because I do enjoy the music...and don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. It certainly isn't identified in scripture as a sin to enjoy your worship time, so why the condemnation for the varying styles?! I think I'll just leave it at that. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1091 Registered: 7-2003 |
Oh, and Franklin Graham is supposed to be on Good morning, America in the morning talking about the recent hurricanes and God. I hope I can catch the segment as I've heard snippits of other things he has said on the topic and found it pretty balanced. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 863 Registered: 3-2005 |
Melissa, Rap music that is based on scripture glorifies God! You probably are going to be shocked by that statement coming from a conservative. BTW, what do you think of Harriet Miers? I am waiting on God to see what this is about. Notice though Melissa, Piper did not criticize any type of music in his piece. His point is about anytime scripture is minimized in the name of not offending seekers, then he has a problem, and I think you would to. Music is a question of style and culture. I just happen to be someone who thinks classical music is the most worshipful for church. And piano and organ is very traditional, and I appreciate hymns. However, I know of in L.A. a Christian rap group who is rapping about Reformed theology and the five points of Calvinism! How about that for a twist! God reaches people thru all types of music. If i have been unclear in the past, I now believe this. Franklin Graham is much different from his father. Billy said after 9/11, that Islam is close to Christianity. Franklin said Islam is an evil and wicked religion. Billy Graham also said that God loves the hijackers that slammed into the towers just as much as he loves those that are saved. He said this on Larry King. Franklin speaks with clarity and sounds a certain sound of the trumpet. I will give Billy the benefit of the doubt, since he has aged, and I still like him! Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1092 Registered: 7-2003 |
Oh, I know Piper didn't mention music, but a lot of people who condemn supposed "seeker" stuff also associate music style with their position. I know many people like traditional, organ and piano...but it is not a scripture mandate...which means someone's preference for traditional is no more holy than someone else's preference for contemporary. That is still getting hung up in external trappings, and not the heart of worship. That is where I get crossways with those who want to challenge someone's use of scripture and throw on top of it their style of worship service, as though scripture equally says you must use organ and observe silence in worship...or that variety in worship is a sin and proves shallowness. That makes it a bit ritualistic to me, which I know some people like. There are certainly personality styles that probably find great joy in the traditional worship setting...but if someone doesn't, why can't they enjoy a worship style that is genuine yet joyful to them? Somehow it's okay for those who like traditional services to like their service, but it's self-centered and self-serving if someone worships in a different style that they like. That is my main angst. So, God does not love "the world" (John 3:16) or "the world" does not include those that do a certain level of evil? I'm not sure that Franklin is really contradicting Billy in that respect...one is speaking to a religious system, the other is talking about individuals. If a muslim accepted Christ and moved out of islam, he's still saved like anyone else, right? No doubt, Franklin is far more direct and able to take the battle full force. I would love to sit and talk with Billy, though, and see how his perspective has changed through the years. I'm sure he has seen a lot through all his travels and time..as we all do. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2001 |
Our church started the 40 days of Community last week. My husband and I joined a group because the concept appealed to us--community service. I am finding some of the same issues in this book as the last changing versions to make a point, and in the original context it not being what the text says. What I do like about the book is it is focused on starting to love in the church than expanding to the outside. If you cannot love the ones of same mind how could you ever go out into an opposing world and hold fast? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1093 Registered: 7-2003 |
Our church is also doing the community study, though I choose not to participate. The sermons have been incredibly thought-provoking and challenging though they certainly are not doctrinally based. They are more a conglomeration of living the "One Anothers" and some practical ideas towards that end. My pastor tends to stick to the nasb or niv...depending upon which rendering he thinks translates a passage best. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 868 Registered: 3-2005 |
So Melissa, since Piper didn't mention music, then it looks like you agree with him and me on the merits of his article. I have now clarified my position to say that even rap music can be used if the words are appropriate. I like both Praise and Worship contemporary and traditional. Even John MacArthur, the biggest and most outspoken critic of Rick Warren doesn't condemn the musical styles, but he is concerned with the de-emphasis of expository Bible teaching, in the same way Piper is. When you think about it, all false cultic systems play fast and loose with scripture, and use any translation that makes their point. Warren is not a cultist, but he certainly can't be above criticism when it does come to his use of scripture. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1096 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, I agreed with the article's concerns. My thoughts on RW specifically are still mixed because when I've heard him preach or speak unedited, I haven't seen the sloppiness that is in some of the books. I don't know if you remember the girl in Atlanta who was held captive by a man who had just killed a judge, court reporter and someone else before taking her. Some media made a todo that she had read to him PDL and that lead him to let her go, and at least one article in this forum linked to a criticism that she choose to go get PDL to read to him instead of her Bible. Anyway, that woman was on Oprah last week and told her complete story. How she actually came to read him a section of PDL was VERY different than the article seemed to say. The article said she went back to get her PDL with the intention of reading it to him. What actually happened, as she herself told the story on Oprah, is that she had been with him for a number of hours, and she was wanting something to do and said she was reading a book and asked if she could go back to her room to get it so she could read. After she brought it back into the room and began reading, he asked her to read it out loud to him. So, she did. The article said she went to get the book to read to him about God.... Now does her account of the real events sound anything like that?? The article had also made it sound like she was a regularly "practicing Christian". She wasn't. She had lost custody of her kids because of her drug use and she actually gave her kidnapper some drugs she had in the house...though she claims she hasn't done drugs since then. She wanted to get out that morning so badly because she only got to see her kids once every two weeks and that was her day to see them. And he let her go when it was time to go, maybe the book influenced him but she had made the plea before she ever read the book to him. That's a very different picture than the "shallow" Christian some say PDL made her. She also said that Rick Warren had called her after that event and asked if she was okay, and prayed with her. I think most of us would agree that is a pastorly thing to do, and hope no one would find fault with that. I don't blanket criticize his use of scripture because I have seen it in two cirumstances. One is the book PDL, which stretches some passages (not all). The other is the times I've seen him speak and though he uses the "modern" translations, I've never heard him "water down" the gospel and can't make that assumption as some say of the so-called seeker movement. That doesn't mean he hasn't, I am just saying I've never heard it. I certainly don't liken him to an EGW or a Binny Hinn or Joseph Smith...and don't think you do either, but some surely seem to think he is... | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 870 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, Melissa, that is interesting. Ashley Smith actually gave that captive crystal methamphetamine! I wasn't going to bring this story up, but since you did, here is an interesting link with other links about the rest of the story with regard to that sensational hostage story. www.theologica.blogspot.com/2005/09/ashley-smith.htm Now, who gets the credit for this captive not being harmed by this guy? Is it PDL or the crystal meth? After this story was first reported, PDL sales went through the roof! Rick Warren came on Larry King, and this was followed by a response by John MacArthur who also appeard on Larry King. Ashley Smith got a book deal from Zondervan as well. Would she have gotten this book deal if the rest of the story were known? This whole Rick Warren phenomenom has gotten out of control. Remember, he is only about 51, and the Christian world as well as the rst of the world will be talking about him for a long time. We have only seen the beginning of the potential power of what he has accomplished through impressive Wall Street marketing methods. He recently spoke to the U.N. about humanitarian care in Africa--which is great in itself--but the web buzz is that he didn't mention the gospel of Jesus Christ when he spoke to the U.N. When he wrote a column for "Ladies Home Journal", he preached a gospel of self esteem minus any mention of Christ. I know he is orthodox on paper and that is all I can go on for now, but I know that the end time deceptions will be so subtle, that there will be false prophets who will come appearing to be very orthodox. I am not saying that Rick Warren is a false prophet, but I do say that I am going to be scrutinizing his ministry for a long time to come. As you know, I have been a skeptical critic of RW's ministry for some time now. Recently, I have had to search my own heart on this topic before the Lord. I realize how serious it is to criticize someone if the Lord is working through them. I am asking myself, "what is it about Mr. Warren's ministry and books that really just get to me?" I am not sure, and maybe someone can help me on this one. Maybe it is because of my experience in Adventism that I am very wary of anyone who can get SO MUCH POWER in the Christian community. You can go to Purpose Driven web sites and buy Purpose Driven coffee mugs, shirts, and all kinds of other stuff. I know Warren doesn't encourage any of this type of stuff. But he does admit that it is the professional music, and the "positive" sermons that does help make his church the largest one in the USA. He does give credit to Peter Drucker, the big time Wall Street marketing guru for the success of his Purpose Driven Churches. Warren has achieved prophetic status in many circles of Christianity. Michael Spencer has called him the Protestant Pope. Now with his latest global outreach to Africa, with the help of the U.N. (I am not a conspiracy buff, but you should see what some say about this), it does make you wonder. I am troubled. I can't put my finger on it. I don't mind the music and entertainment--I live in Orange County where Mr Warren is located--and we are an entertainment society. But I leafed through and read portions of PDL again recently, and I don't know what it is that bothers me. There is a very weak presentation of the gospel message on or about p.50-56, where all you do is whisper a prayer about accepting Jesus and then you are in the family of God. There is no background about the sin problem, or the wrath of God that is certain, and there is no real call to repentance in the true Biblical sense. Warren even says that God never created anyone who He didn't like. That contradicts the clear teaching of Romans 9, where Paul clearly says that some vessels were prepared in advance for destruction. When I was in Adventism, I followed blindly down a path thinking that Ellen White was a true prophet. I repeat--WARREN IS NOT EGW! But I will never again put any faith in any human leader whether it be Warren, Sproul, MacArthur, Piper, Packer, or whoever it is without putting there teachings to the test of scripture, and whether they rightly divide the Word of Truth. Romans 10 says, "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". If we faithfully teach God's Word, He has promised that it will not return void. We don't need PDL studies, we need BIBLE studies. A harvest of souls is still waiting if we just proclaim the Word! Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 871 Registered: 3-2005 |
That link above doesn't work for some reason, but I found an even more updated story on Ashley Smith based on a Larry King interview last night. The link is www.challies.com/archives/001353.php This is interesting. Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 296 Registered: 8-2004 |
Thanks for sharing that link Stan. I needed to read that article tonight. Not because of the connection to Rick Warren, but for the reminder that God truly is sovereign. I was especially touched by one of the comments that were posted. The one about the couple who lost their baby. God really does give and take away. I remember listening to an elderly immigrant lady tell of a family who was having worship in Eastern Europe when an armed group of men arrived. They said that the family was to die for worshiping God. The father of the house asked if they could have one last prayer session, and was granted it. The family gathered in the main room of the house and knelt in a circle . . . And then, as they prayed they were shot, and the house was burned down on them. I'd been trying to share with her that God is with us and is in control all the time. She wanted to know where God was then? Why didn't He answer their prayer for deliverance? What was He thinking? What good did their deaths do? She said I was just a 'too young, naive American who'd never seen hardship'. And yet, as I learn and 'grow older' (not that I'm that old yet, I have lots of learning and growing to do!) I still find that God truly is sovereign. As particular things in my life that I thought were constants have crumbled, I've had not only to learn to accept them as they now are, but also to recognise that God knew from the beginning that this would happen. The lesson is sometime bitter, and sometimes unexpectedly sweet. "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord." | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1098 Registered: 7-2003 |
Surely you are not blaming RW that the media jumped on that woman's story from Atlanta? Do you think he somehow orchestrated those events? And if not, why fault him for them? You know, I work at Hallmark. I've been here 20+ years. Hallmark owns Dayspring. It is their mission to take popular items and make money on them. I've watched Thomas Kinkade go from a beautiful paint artist to where he is now available on mugs, magnets, and cards. I've seen TDJakes ... now there's someone that alarms me! His messages are all over cards and I have Christian friends have no idea some of his more questionable statements. I watched a Sunday morning new magazine crucify James Dobson as having political aspirations because of his strong "grass roots" political base. Maybe because you are where he is, you see him more in the media, but I am telling you, we NEVER see him on anything local. He was on Oprah for like 2 minutes last week and they mentioned him on the national news once a month or so ago about him going to visit storm victims. But when people want a perspective on God around here, they go to a Franklin Graham quote or a local pastor. RW is never quoted on anything I encounter in the mid-west. Regarding the article...is it your perspective, since I presume you support this man's position, that God WILLED Satan to do to Job what he did? Was it God's will that Eve sin? She had no choice in the matter? She was not deceived, but fulfilling God's will? Did God want Noah to get drunk after the flood? Did he want Abraham to say Sarah was his sister? Did he want David to commit adultery with Bathsheba? Did he really WANT my daughter to be born retarded? And, if so, how that is "loving" her? And by that view of sovereignty, God wanted Lucifer to rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him...so why is he mourning that what he wanted to happen happened? See, I don't think it is God's WILL that I sin. Scripture also says that it is not his will that any shall perish, but clearly many do... The first scripture most of us memorize as kids is John 3:16 "for God so loved the world..." Well, not really everyone? If God controls everything, then we're nothing but a bunch of puppets and it doesn't matter what I or Rick Warren or anyone else does. By that position, you really have no argument because Rick Warren's actions are God's will. But if somewhere along the line, Satan does have influence, and people do have choices, then I don't disagree with Rick's half statements, which were frequently twisted and jumped on before complete. I've tried to answer the same questions to people who are not believers without getting into terminology they can't understand. Is that really watering it down or just trying to communicate? We have questioned on this forum whether Katrina was an act of judgement by God, yet why was that even a question if God orchestrates everything? Evil happens because evil exists in the world... I don't think God "wanted" it to be that way or he's just playing games with a lot of people's lives...giving them awful diseases and causing car accidents. Is that really your view of sovereignty? The thing RW said about the storms (when he did get a full sentence in) was the same I've said and I've heard other pastors I really respect say ... we live in a sinful world, just as Rick did (okay, he said broken, I guess that's watering down in his critics perspective). But I didn't really disagree with the pieces he quoted. I guess some would say I don't see God as sovereign, but that's not true. But I do think he is sovereign enough to let people make their own choices, as I believe he did with Eve, Noah, Abraham, David, Satan, etc. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, but if that means God intentionally makes broken and damaged people like my daughter, I'm not sure I want that. I accept sin exists and because of it, bad things happen. But to say that God wanted to make my daughter live in the kind of misery she does, and that he wanted all those people in the WTC to die as they did, that he wanted Lucifer to fall... I've got a real problem with that based upon what I see in scripture. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 873 Registered: 3-2005 |
Melissa, Please forgive me, but did you read my post above? It of course was not Warren's fault that the media jumped on that story, and I am scratching my head right now as to where I said that. Then you start in on something I didn't even address in my post. Surely I would never believe in a God who would want your daughter to be retarded! Please be careful Melissa, where did I say this? Mary commented above about how she needed that article last night to re-affirm the sovereignty of God, but it looks like you were offended by it. I actually was so tired last night that I didn't get a chance to read the article, but I am interested in dialogue, Melissa, so I will read it, and try to comment. I think this discussion is so important. I didn't mean any personal offense. We serve a truly gracious and awesome God! Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1099 Registered: 7-2003 |
I should be more clear....Your comment about RW phenomenon being out of control was what I was responding to being his fault. It's no more his fault that a woman read his book and the media jumped on it than yours or mine. I'm just trying to clarify/figure out what "phenomenon" you mean is out of control and was presuming you're not blaming RW for that response.... Not at all upset, just clarifying. In regards to Rachel, I'm not saying you said it, I'm making some assumptions by extension based upon the comments in the article, so sorry if that was fuzzy. And if you haven't read the article, we're really in different assumption bases! But if we're saying God controls everything because he is sovereign, then we're saying he creates broken children. And what then, does the role of a broken/sinful world play? My maybe-longer-than- necessary example was merely trying to show ways I think scripture shows God was not "controlling" particular situations, but allowing choice. I wasn't really offended as confused and trying to understand your point based upon the comments in the article. My general point, I didn't find Rick's comments "wrong" or "unscripturally based" as the article seemed to be indicating. Sometimes communication in 2D is so ... inadequate. Sorry if it seem confrontive. That was not my intention at all. Here was another comment from the feedback below that I thought stated my sense towards RW critics/criticism, perhaps better than I did. "I find it remarkable that NO ONE has at all in any way mentioned where Rick Warren actually said what everyone has been screaming for him to sayóinstead, it seems the corporate "we" keeps seeking to narrow in on anything he might have said taht was doctrinally (or shall I say, Calvinistically, perfect). Did everyone completely miss the place where he was talking about Celebrate Recovery and said: "Number one, there is a God. And we say who he is, his name is Jesus Christ." Ok, now this is exactly what so many critcis have been condemning Warreb for not doing. Not clearly defining Christ's identity. Well, here we have Warren VERY clearly saying Jeuss is God and I have seem no one, anywhere, noting this remark. Odd. I'm just curious as to why no one has mentioend this comment, when so many other remarks are already so very important. RA" (I copied and pasted, so all typos in original text). Again, sorry my original questions came across so poorly. I was just trying to make sense of my own confusion..... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1100 Registered: 7-2003 |
And I'm still not sensing I'm being very clear in regards to the article. I have questions on sovereign and free will. How the two balance and interact in general terms, then what that means to the situtions I've encountered in my life specifically. It's easy to say things in the idealistic 3rd person, but when trying to apply those thoughts to specifics, I'm at a loss to reconciling it. Am I making any sense yet or should I just give up?!  (Message edited by melissa on October 07, 2005) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 303 Registered: 7-2004  |
From Melissa's post: I read the article earlier this morning, and that was the main sentence that jumped out at me, because I too have noticed that many claim Rick Warren says little or nothing about Jesus. I just didn't post anything, because I'm enjoying reading the discussion between Riverfonz and Melissa! While I've never read the PDL book or attended any PDL groups, my personal opinion is that I prefer sold Biblical teaching, where the gospel is clearly presented instead of mainly presenting practical ways we can take care of our external problems. On the other hand, if Rick Warren is helping even one person with his book or ministry to find Jesus, then more power to him. And I agree with Melissa, that whatever the media does with a person is often the fault of the media. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 876 Registered: 3-2005 |
I appreciate your comments, Melissa. I will take the time later to read the entire article and respond more in depth. But one response about Job. I think the text is clear that God allowed Satan to attack Job, so in that sense God willed it to happen to Job. We live in a fallen world. Babies are born retarded, hurricanes happen, and terrorists do their thing. Jesus made it clear in Luke 13 that these calamities came upon the unjust and the just, and not because of their sin. I do believe in the Reformed doctrine of the total sovereignty of God, but instead of this idea being repulsive, I find it comforting. That doesn't make it any easier for me to understand why my wife of 50 years old had a career ending stroke at the time that it happened one year ago today. But in retrospect, Marti now understands why it was not God's will that we have children. She was in a state of depression for two years, and couldn't understand why God might be punishing her, but now she understands. Romans 8:28, 29 are so comforting, in that God works and wills through all circumstances to those of us who are called according to His purpose. In a fallen world God allows bad things to happen, but I see it as Him working out all things in the end so His name will be glorified. We exist for His glory and for His purposes, and Rick Warren does a good job of emphasizing this point in his book. The other point when I started speaking about the Rick Warren phenomenom had nothing to do with Ashley Smith. Warren came on Larry King to play down the effect. Look, Rick Warren is not a bad guy, I know he affirms the deity of Christ, in fact, he still professes to be a Calvinist, but a lot of what he writes doesn't fit the great writings of a Spurgeon etc. Let me illustrate further what I mean by the RW phenomenom. More Christian leaders are starting to question where this phenomenom is leading, as you noticed with John Piper's comments. I get in the car this AM to go to work, and I punch up KKLA 99.5 FM this AM, and what do I hear? It is Alistair Begg of www.truthforlife.org where you can hear today's message on audio, talking about effective preaching and Biblical preaching. He never mentions PDL or RW by name, but the whole message is illustrating the de-emphasis on line by line Bible teaching. He used the illustration of the parable of the sower, and did a little parody on it. 'One ministry does 40 minutes of solid Biblical teaching and gets no results. Another ministry does 20 minutes of teaching and 20 minutes of drama and gets no results, another ministry does 5 minutes of preaching, and 35 minutes of music, but another ministry publishes a book, and comes up with a certain methodology, and becomes the most sucessful ministry and largest church in the country (I am paraphrasing), so everyone has now figured out what the most successful formula and way to do church is!' I couldn't believe that this radio teacher had hit right at the heart of many observer's concerns. But look what has happened in the last 10 years or so. Willow Creek was considered the most successful model of ministry, so much of the Christian world flocked to take classes from Bill Hybels on how to build successful churches. Now that Warren has the largest church and most successful ministry in the country, RW is holding seminars where pastors (even Mormon leaders) are flocking to see how to build a successful church. This movement is very big, and will become even bigger. But, the Bible says that the true church will be built by the Holy Spirit, by the faithful, careful dividing of the Word of Truth, so the Holy Spirit can open the spiritual eyes of the hearers. At least, Alistair Begg gives us something to really think about this AM. Stan | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 429 Registered: 5-2002 |
sidebar - I LOVE Alistair Begg! I call his program "The Gospel According to Groundskeeper Willie." Those of you who have heard both Alistair and seen The Simpsons will understand... =) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 877 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, Freeatlast, I agree, and this online sermon he preached today is a classic Raven, I agree that Warren is orthodox, and criticism that he doesn't preach Christ is not fair either. Ric_b said it well on a post way back at the start of this thread, does the end justify the means? If it is true that Saddleback is the largest church and RW admits it is because of the music (no criticism there), and the fact that he preaches positive, practical, topical messages, instead of expository preaching, then that is where the problem is. No one in Christian leadership would be criticizing RW if his church was the largest because of it's solid Biblical exposition. Robert Schuller, who influenced both Hybels and Warren, had the same philosophy, and that is he would preach pop psychology from the pulpit, but once people were in the doors, then they would hopefully be led to some serious Bible study. I don't know. I just don't see a Biblical model for this. Stan |
