| Author | Message | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2005 |
How can one preach grace in one breath, and then preach that if a person eats pork they are an abomination unto the Lord and will not go to Heaven in the next breath? Someone I know was reading an Amazing Facts brochure about how Isaiah 66:15-17 says this, and was disturbed by it. The people preaching this message might as well just come right out and say, "Look folks, it is nice Jesus died for us and all, but that just isn't enough." To preach that is so wrong. It is a false gospel. I love that the Lord has opened my heart to His message of grace, because I would be miserable if I believed anything else. I just pray that Adventists will have an awakening to this, and be led to Jesus only. I know that when I used to hear things like that from Adventist leaders that I respected, it would scare me. I would feel terrible and hopeless, and get upset with myself for not being able to just "get it together." I have often heard the Amazing Facts guy quote Hebrews 10:26 about there being no forgiveness for sins after we have received knowledge of the truth and go on sinning willfully. He usually quotes it after talking to someone about certain Adventist doctrines. I would get really concerned about that, because I often screw up and think or say or do things I KNOW are wrong. I remember the day that God revealed the truth about that scripture to me, and how free i felt. That it is rejecting the gospel of Jesus for which there is no forgiveness. I fully embrace that it is only by Jesus' shed blood that I am made perfect, and there is nothing that I could add to that. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1936 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Wooliee, you must have read my rant below about this very topic. Yes, I have some very special people who I love very much who truly, 100% believe that everyone who is an active pork eater at the time of their death or at the time of Christs coming they cannot and 100% willnot be accepted into the eternal kingdom with Jesus. They will insatead be annialiated in the lake of fire. I have had very near and dear loved ones tell me that Hindus and Moslems and Hare Krishnas and all other non-pork-eaters are more right with God than folks who profess Jesus but eat pork. It is explained to me this is because God referrs to pork as an abomination and that is the worst of the bad terms that God uses. And, my advice is to run away from Doug Batchlor and his Amazing Facts stuff as fast as you can go. Like, get the remote and change stations pronto. That program gives me the heebee-jeebees, if you know what I mean. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2005 |
Here's a quote from Robert Brinsmead's book "Judged by the Gospel":
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| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 292 Registered: 1-2003  |
Heretic, I agree with you TOTALLY but for me that same forgiveness must be extended back to those in the church who have/will offend us. If we are not careful we exhibit that same rigidity and unforgiveness in return. I struggle with this all the time and unless I quietly turn it over to God it is impossible. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 675 Registered: 7-2004 |
I totally stand with Richard on this one. It doesn't matter what is in our stomachs. Jesus has completely forgiven us, and I believe he calls for no less from us. Belva | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2002 |
Good point Richard, that is an area in which I don't shine. By the way, I am not fond of pork except in Hot & Sour Soup. A visit to the Chinese restaurant is not complete without at least one bowl. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 190 Registered: 2-2005 |
Richard and Belva, Oh, don't get me wrong, because I absolutely agree with what you're saying, that it cuts both ways. How can we expect to be forgiven if we, ourselves, are unable to forgive? This has been an area of great difficulty for me, personally. In regards to the church, I think I've gotten off relatively easily and don't seem to bear the battlescars that many folks here seem to have had to endure, so forgiving those in the church hasn't been that difficult for me. Ephesians 1 tells me that God had a plan for me before the foundation of the world and apparently that plan included me being raised an Adventist so it's hard for me to be bitter. Other than my clear disagreement with most of the church's doctrinal beliefs once I really studied them out for myself (righteousness by faith, in particular), my experience wasn't all that oppressive or deeply wounding. I suppose there's something to be said for growing up in "liberal" Southern California (at least in SDA circles) in the 80's and 90's (hey, my family even went out to eat sometimes after church!). My greatest difficulty has been in forgiveness of those one or two individuals in my personal life who have brought much pain and anguish to myself and those in my family. We're called to forgive them, too, and that's where I struggle continually. Heretic | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 459 Registered: 4-2000  |
Heretic, Thanks for sharing that excellent quote from Robert Brinsmead's book titled, "Judged by the Gospel." I need to add that book to my library. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2602 Registered: 12-2003  |
Heretic, I understand what you're saying. I have had the same struggle. There are a couple of things I've been learning (notice the continuous tense of that verb!). One is that forgiveness doesn't mean forgiving and forgetting because sometimes we have to remember in order to protect ourselves from future danger. It does, however, mean giving up the right to get even and turning that over to God. Another thing I've been learning is that sometimes it's really necessary to set boundaries, even when the person in question is quite close. It's awfully hard to admit that a relationship might never be what you thought it should be. Facing reality is hard to do--but that is part of the truth to which God calls us. As long as we don't face the reality of a painful relationship, the more damage is done. It's hard to learn to be commited to truth even in cases where the truth is painful. Colleen | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2005 |
Wooliee, after reading your post, I was thinking to myself yet again how I'm suspicious of any religious tenet that has nothing to do with how we treat each other. For me, odds are, itís baloney (no pun intendedóok, maybe it was intended :-) Then I read your quote, Heretic. That expresses the point very nicely. I had a hard time adjusting my thinking to focus on how I treated others as opposed to what laws I was breaking or not. How could I have been so blind? Life (even in the hereafter) is about people, not dogma. Tom | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1940 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'll share a SDA food story with you. My cousins were raised super SDA. The girl one gave up SDA'ism at a young age. The brother is still super SDA. The girl cousin at the time this incisdent happened must have been around 50 years old, her brother several years younger. She had to relocate many hundreds of miles. Her brother offered to move her as he had a truck. On the very last moving run she got out the ice chest and asked him to pack the food from her freezer into the ice chest. The pork was frozed ands furthermore it was wrapped in butcher paper. My boy cousin refused to touch the packages containing the pork. He wouldn't even take them out of the freezer and place them into the ice chest. I have mentioned this ordeal to several SDA's and they all respond the same-that my boy cousin behaved right, that they would not have partisipated in moving the pork either. I just think it is way spun. And, now another personal food story.My dad, bless his heart, grew very old and passed away several years ago. however around 25 years ago I was on the phone chatting away with a very good friend of mine. She still calls me up to tell me this conversation we had on the phone that day was one of the indicators that the SDA church was a bit too far out for her. We actually met in Cradle Roll when our oldest children were babies. However, back to my story. I had told her on the phone, "Oh, my dad just came over" to which she asked me if I needed to get off the phone so I could see what my dad wanted. I had told her, "No, I don't need to get off the phone. He'll leave right away. He's just going through my refridgerator and freezer doing his weekly pork check." She had thought that was so far-out. My dad just wanted to make sure his grandchildren weren't getting any pork. To me it seemed normal. To my friend it seemed way spun. Then one of my children ended up doing a spell in the state prison. My dad would visit that grandchild every Friday afternoon for an hour or so. I always went along because by this time my dad was very elderly and did not drive anymore. I will never forget this one visit. My dad leaned over to my son at the visiting table in the prison and said to the grandson he loved so much, "I know you don't get much say in what they feed you in here but you don't eat the pork, do you?" My son said, "Oh, grandpa, you know I'd never do that. No, grandpa, I trade it to someone else for something I can eat." My dad was so pleased knowing his grandson would never stoop so low as to eat pork. I was just blown away. I mean, there is not an inmate in any state prison who is in there for eating pork. There's all kinds of reasons why folks end up in prison and eating pork is not one of them. FAF Friends, I've got numerous food stories. Sometimes they strike me as funny and sometimes sad. And, none of my food stories focus on Jesus. Now my food stories totally focus on Jesus because I say grace and I am thankful for what I have. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2002 |
Weimarred, I am quite certain I remember you. There are things from your posts that have led me to think that I may know who you are, and then I noticed on the above post that you signed Tom. I won't use the last name on here, but if you are who I think you are, you were very easy going, had a huge red & white polkadot tie, and often went down to the coast where your mom lived. You also joined the military after leaving. (Which totally shocked me) | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2005 |
Derrell, sorry, for the life of me I can't remember you, at least by name... But yes, all you said was true, except that at many times I was uneasy-going, at least in heart. Don't get me wrong, I treasure most of my memories from Weimar, but there was a lot "under the surface". Of course, that had more to do with the church then with any particular setting. At any rate, I did join the Army. What an eye-opening experience that was! When you've been "withdrawn" from the world your whole life, the world is an incredible school, and boy, did I have some learning to do. Maybe we can e-mail, at least initially through the moderator. I'd like to hear from you. Tom | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 651 Registered: 1-2003 |
I made my own Chorizo last night. I got a pork butt and ground it up and added spices and it was totally delicious...I put it in a casserole. Now, from my upbringing...I have to say, I watched the pan very carefully as I heated the meat...for the rumored worms that crawl out when the pork heats up. I saw none. Then I added green onions and one of the onions came apart and really looked like a worm...I had to talk myself through it! Isn't that crazy? I went to church yesterday and my SDA mother went with me. She just sat there and didn't praise the Lord at all...I understand, she is old and set in her ways. Anyway...my sister-in-law goes too, without my SDA brother, and she loves it. When we got home, my mom said, "He really is a good preacher...but I just can't feel at ease going to church on Sunday." I said, "What if they met on Tuesday? Would that be ok? Do you watch sermons on the TV on weeknights? When is it ever wrong to worship?" It made me sad because the SDA have done such a number on people! They have made woshipping God on any day but Saturday a sin. It's not right!!!! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1081 Registered: 7-2003  |
My challenge is not so much forgiveness or even the anger that occasionally rears it ugly head, but it is understanding what my role now is in keeping my "brother" from stumbling because of my freedom. Case in point, last weekend we all went out to dinner Sunday evening. We do it occasionally for Jonathan. We went to a chinese buffet. Since it was B's time with Jonathan, I let him pick out his food, but my 12-year old gets what he wants...including shrimp. Jonathan eyed them on Christopher's plate and I just waited. I knew it wouldn't be long before he would want some for himself. And having been in the situation before, I knew B would get that just "punched in the stomach" look. Sure enough, Jonathan looks at Christopher and says "I want one of those", pointing to the shrimp. Christopher peeled him a piece and gave it to Jonathan who ate it and asked for more. B never looked up from his plate. But his face was all red. If meat doesn't "cause" a heart attack for him, eating with Jonathan's family will eventually. It is a completely double standard for me to say to son #1 that he can't share his food with son #2. And it is an even greater confusion to explain to 2-year old son #2 that he can share in some circumstances, but not in others. So, I do my best to be consistent with the boys recognizing that I'm completely defying B's "genuine" beliefs. I do that because I want them raised with what I believe is right, but to do that, forces B to endure what he adamantly believes is wrong, and an "abomination" ... as he spews that stuff Julie quoted at the top. Having been raised to not demand my own way, and to put others before myself, it has taken a lot of angst personally to not put up a facade when B is around in regards to Jonathan, but to be who I really am and expect my own rules to apply in my own home. It completely contradicts the self-sacrificing upbringing I was raised with. At times, it seems quite selfish, but at other times I feel I'm protecting my boys from seeing "two-facedness" about their faith and beliefs. This is an either/or issue. Either you eat meat (unclean or not) or you don't. There is no middle ground to the die-hard. And I've yet to meet a vegetarian who was willing to compromise as those who eat meat are expected to. But it is certainly uncomfortable to be in that situation regardless of how "right" you feel...and if you're uncomfortable long enough, it seems anger would equally be natural. A "lighter" question... do vegetarians consider honey an "animal product"? I heard a nutritionist on focus on the family a while back and he was talking about sugar. The body doesn't recognize "healthy" and "unhealthy" types of sugar, he said, so the white crystals, which come from sugar cane or sugar beets, are no different than sugar from honey to the body. Then he asked the question: would you rather eat something from a plant, or from a bug? Which, of course, made me wonder....do SDAs consider honey an animal product? And I'm guessing "no" because B will eat it...so why not? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2605 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki--I understand! The aversions and fears we have in common speak so profoundly about the effectiveness of "another gospel" to obscure the truth about Jesus. Goodness, when I stand back and look at the energy so many of us have spent worrying about and avoiding FOOD, of all things--it's so carnal. Our spiritual life wasn't even being addressed. Speaking of food and such, I mentioned last week or so that Richard is committed to overcoming his aversion to meat and is accountable to our pastor's wife who challenged him with the statement that ultimately his eating meat was a choice. Without making a choice, he would forever be paralyzed by his aversion. Saturday evening we took my mom and three of her friends out to dinner for my mom's 80th birthday. We went to a quiet Italian place my mom likes. Two of my mom's friends were dyed-in-the-wool Advenitsts. One was a delightful, lively lady with sparkling eyes from Trinity church. Roy, our older son, has no compunctions about food of any kind, and true to form, he ordered something he'd never eaten before: calamari. After a general discussion which informed the Adventist ladies that calamari was squid (oh, no!), Roy passed bite-sized tastes to my mom and to me. When he heard how much we liked it, Richard asked for a bite, also. As Roy passed him a piece, Richard explained to the sweet SDA lady next to him that he is learning to overcome vegetarainism. Richard was lighthearted about it and explained his deep aversion which holds him in bondage rather than allowing him to have a choice about whether or not to eat meat. She was polite and faintly amused by the very idea that one would try to overcome vegetarianism! He watched the lady from the corner of his eye as he put the calamari in his mouth, and saw her grimace and look sideways. To my astonishment he liked it. "It's better than chicken," he pronounced. All four women were close in age to each other--my mom was probably the youngest by 3 or 5 years. It was most interesting to observe them. The two Adventist ladies we picked up walked with canes. Both have fairly recently had total hip replacements following broken hips. The Trinity lady, who has not had an easy life and has endured some very hard family situations, drove herself to the restaurant and had eyes that were full of life. Until my mom told me later, I thought she was 10 years younger than the others. Two things struck me: first, knowing Jesus makes people completely different. The 2 SDA ladies had a background aura of fear and rigidity. They were most gracious, but there was a limitedness to their conversation, understanding, etc. that felt faintly like fear. The Trinity lady, on the other hand, clearly knew Jesus. Her eyes were alive, and she freely enjoyed her surroundings, the food, she talked easily, etc. Second, the Trinity lady (well, my mom, too), seemed stronger. OF course, many things contribute to strength or weakness once one is 80 years old! But I remembered my parent's doctor saying to me several years ago, "I see these Adventist ladies with bones of glass, and they refuse to drink milk!" The contrast between the Adventist ladies and the Trinity lady was hard to miss. I keep remembering that Jesus said He came that we would have life, and have it more abundantly. Living in fear and in the delusion that being vegetarian necessarily makes one more healthy is not part of abundant life. All in all, it was an interesting and memorable evening! Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2005 |
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ :-) (Of course, I don't believe I'll ever be able to put a shrimp in my mouth! But it's more of a personal foods thing with me I think. I can't get myself to eat guacamole either!) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 286 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Melissa that sounds so familiar! The 'Punched in the stomach' look when something was eaten that he believes is wrong. Because I left SDAism instead of never having joined the specifics were a little different for me but the outcome was the same. I would be told that if I really believed meat was appropriate I'd BETTER eat it. And then, if I actually did order something with meat in it (I was not allowed to brng anything like that home, so this only happened at a restaurant) my beloved SDA would sit there watching, crying, and glaring, and definitely looking 'punched in the stomach', telling me he couldn't believe he was watching me sin. About honey, the SDAs I know who even think about it decided that it is fine. I seem to recall that this is because EGW said it is better than sugar, but I could not quickly find any reference to it. Mary | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2005 |
The farther removed I am, the harder it is for me to relate to the angst over meat. It's sad to think that http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ isn't parody for some people (loved the site, Brian!). To me, it's obvious from history, even Biblical writings, that we were meant to be omnivorous, not vegans. Dennis mentioned that European SDAs related to Hitlerís being a vegetarian. I wonder, do they relate well to PETA, because they're vegans? As I mentioned sometime ago, my Bible teacher at MBA (he must have been a liberal thinker) explained that the whole clean/unclean tenet was not Biblically directed, but that the church could make new requirements of its members. He cited an example from the new testament to support his claim. That sounded ludicrous to me in more ways than one, especially since the church claims to be getting back to the true basics (a fundamentalist concept, whether SDAs call themselves fundamentalist or not). Why toss out all ceremonial laws, but pick and choose a couple to maintain? Also, especially in a legalistic form of salvation, why add to the already onerous requirements? The new testament church adding requirements of faith seems a debatable point to me. It would seem to open the door to the very thing that is anathema to SDAs, who often trumpet the point ìHe thought to change the laws of Godî, or something of that nature (Iíve long since forgotten, or I should say, ìavoided rememberingî the apocalyptic sayings). My point is, if youíre going to point out the Great Sunday Conspiracy, wherein the Pope changes the law of God, why run the risk of even appearing to change or add to the laws of God yourself? It was an epiphany to me. I felt from thereon that I was dealing with a silly belief system. I canít see a whole lot of difference between modern Adventists, and groups like the Essenes, etc., where eschatological perambulations and lots of legal minutiae take precedence over any personal salvation. As a kid, I remember we thought it was funny that some Jews actually write down prayers and literally strap them to their foreheads. But really, how were we any different? Tom | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 840 Registered: 3-2005 |
Great discussion and greetings all from Bullhead City Ariz. I have enjoyed reading this thread. Heretic and Dennis, That Brinsmead book "Judged by the Gospel" is a true classic to add to your library. I just wish Brinsmead had stayed true to the gospel. Does anyone else have any other info to share on him? Because, the last I heard, he had wandered a long way from the truth that he once proclaimed, and needs prayer that he will one day return. However, related to this thread on giving up our SDA hangups about food and drink, I clearly remember one great live presentation he made back in Monterrey, Calif. on about July 4, 1980, and I still have it on tape in the tape series which may still be available called "The Gospel against the Sectarian Spirit", in which he called Adventism as well as fundamentalism as inspired by a demonic spirit. But when Brinsmead started talking about this whole issue of food, coffee and tea, and wine, he was especially good. He used Jesus' example as the friend of sinners, and how they accused Jesus of being a winebibber, and Robert expressed great doubt that they were accusing Jesus of being a grapejuice drinker. But he was relating his experience with SDAs who have come to the truth of the gospel with regard to their sudden freedom to be able to relate to others in a much more meaningful way because they no longer have to worry about what they eat or drink. They don't have to ask questions about what is in the soup etc. His classic statement in his Australian accent, and in his own dramatic style was this, "You are free to join the human race! MOVE OVER HUMAN RACE FOR HERE I COME! This drew loud applause and tears of joy from an audience who had lived their lives in their prison of fear for so long. Stan |
