| Author | Message | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2005 |
I grew up in an Adventist church that was very conservative. They were very careful in following the beliefs exactly as taught. Also, they were careful to follow Ellen White's every word. Many of the sermons were focused on Ellen White passages and not Bible text. Weird discussions on not eating meat were frequently brought up. Later in life I was introduced to a group of Adventist churches in the area I lived known as liberal Adventists. By this point I had been struggling with many of the strict, non-Biblical beliefs of Adventists. Members at this new type of Adventism acknowledged their own differences with many of the beliefs and talked how they are a group of people that are nonjudgemental and support individuality. They also know of the Ellen White controvesy and tend to rarely bring her up or use her writings. The liberals acknowledge problems with EGW's writing whereas the conservatives hang on every word as if were a faith test. So, this liberal Adventism seemed pretty likeable in the sense that they were very relaxed and let each person follow the light they are being led by. However, I soon found out this liberal ideology was true to the majority except on one belief that was unshakable - the Sabbath. The Sabbath was, just as the conservatives believe, their fortress of loyalty. You could be liberal about everything else, but never the Sabbath. Members frequently wonder why weren't you at church last week, or why don't you attend Sabbath school more often. Weekly Sabbath attendence observance was their sign that a person and they themselves were devout Christians. Strict Sabbath customs can be so bad that one often feels like the Jews did in the Bible careful not to break and and fearful of the consequences from fellow members. Point I wanted to make here is that the ideology of "Liberal Adventism" may try and sell freedom in Christ, but behind the propaganda still exists the Sabbath dictator. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 423 Registered: 5-2002 |
Liberal Seventh-day Adventism is really no Seventh-day Adventism at all. Trying to call onesself a Seventh-day Adventist without reference to the influence of Ellen White is like trying to call onesself an evolutionist without reference to the influence of Charles Darwin. It willfully ignores the obvious. Liberal SDAism has skimmed off a little of the bathwater, but the baby (the Sabbath) is still in the tub, so to speak. It sounds like your experience was one of still being bound to the Sabbath, only you had a longer chain than others. Welcome! | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2004  |
Hi Pigeonite - I feel that the Seventh-day Adventists only have a few bibical passages that they can use to show that they are correct in their way of believing. The Sabbath is their main foundation because it was written in the ten commadments by God's finger and is easier to convince people that are searching for the truth, that it is the truth. The SDA's do not see the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, in which He is our rest everyday of the week. They can not lose their one foundation, the Sabbath, because in doing so there is no Seventh-day Adventist Church. It's much easier to have someone believe in the bible and what it really doesn't say, then it is to have someone believe in a health message or other off the main stream ideas that would be strange to those who know about God and are searching for the truth. Not until they are lured into the fold and then presented with these lies in a fixed and calculated system, would most people take it seriously. So the Sabbath has to be the starting point. The Sabbath message is what took me off my feet and lead me to the SDA church. I thought I had finally found the truth, the truth that God was trying to teach me since I first got on that church bus to the Temple Heights Baptist Church at 6 years old. One day I will share my journey to Christ. But I think I have babbled enough. I totally agree with your post and you are such I good writer, I wish I had that talent! Patrick | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2005 |
I don't want to get into a Sabbath doctrinal discussion. We've all been there. But the Sabbath commandment says nothing about going to church or worshiping God. It speaks of resting on that day. Physical rest. I often wonder what Adventists think if ever they do think - using reason and logic - about how every single Adventist abides by his/her own custom-designed Sabbath observance rules and practice. So....who truly KEEPS the Sabbath holy? Has anyone? If that is impossible, why do they keep pretending that they are! One mistake and they are guilty of breaking the WHOLE LAW! And if as EGW insists (of course this info coming straight from God Himself) that even as Christ did not sin even by a thought and "so it may be with us!" ..... then who were and are all these Adventists who are reaching this goal? Ever seen one? Ever met one? Was it ever said at their funeral, "Bro/Sr. so-in-so reached perfection! Lived a perfect life"? Hmmmm? Is there something wrong with this picture? Guilt and FEAR....keep many Adventists "trying" and pretending they keep the Sab. holy! I was guilty of the sin of impatience even when my wife would not get the vacuum cleaner put away before the second of "sunset" arrived! But I considered myself a Sabbath keeper. I sin by impatience in my pharisaical way; but oh yeah! I keep the Sabbath! I threw a Frisbee in the park on Sabbath afternoons, while others played catch and kicking a ball around (but never the actual game!) and some took photographs, while others considered using a camera on Sabbath was a sin. A gentle walk was alright, but not a hike in the mountains which caused you to perspire. Throwing stones in a creek was okay, but not wading in it! Wasn't it.... isn't it...... so REDICULOUS? Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2637 Registered: 12-2003  |
Pigeonite--welcome! Glad to see you here. We look forward to hearing more of your experience! Yes, Jess, it IS ridiculous. I so well remember all those hair-splittings I went through. My mom believed that God would rather have us clean than dirty on His day, so if we finished the last swipe of floor-mopping after sundown, that was OK. We were doing it for God. Certainly we were allowed to bathe on Sabbath. Nonetheless, I struggled with guilt over the issue of "guarding the edges" well into my adult life. I would vow to finish every requirement before sundown--because finishing would CERTAINLY be preferred, if God were to judge--but I could never get it all done. I finally gave up trying since my life became far too full to hope to accomplish everything before Friday sundown. I prayed often about this issue, but I lived with an uneasy truce between my mind's warring arguments for years. Funny--God never clarified the issue of the edges for me while I was inside Adventism! There were always arguments pro and con. What a RELIEF to know Jesus is my Sabbath Rest, and He keeps Me! Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 424 Registered: 5-2002 |
We had a prophetess of God telling us when the Sabbath began and ended, but I often wondered when the edges began and ended... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2641 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! I believe, though, that Ellen even provided that information: all one's work was to be done, worldly pursuits and pleasures including secular books and magazines put away, clothes and food prepared, and baths done by 30 minutes before sundown. The family could then welcome the Sabbath with no trampling of the edges in the event one were uncertain of the exact minute of sundown. Further, one could be undistracted and peaceful, all wordly cares having been put out of mind by sundown. I don't think, however, that she gave a similar grace period before sundown Sabbath, of course. Richard's family lived with the 30-minute rule when he was growing up. And yes, they literally put away all secular magazines, toys, books, etc. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 985 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, I always thought "guarding the edges" referred to both a period of time before sunset Friday and a period of time after sunset Saturday. Meaning, even at sunset Saturday you couldn't start doing "secular" things right away--you had to "guard the edge of the Sabbath"! If you were to just jump right into secular activity, it would be showing disrespect to the Holy Sabbath Day which had just passed away, for another six days! The whole SDA Sabbath god just seems disgusting now! But I have a question: do you have to "guard the edges" of the edges of the Sabbath???!! And how do you know when the "30 minutes" arrive, if you don't know when the exact minute of sunset is?  And, Freeatlast, it took EGW something like 9 years before she even told them when the Sabbath began and ended--up until then they were all (including her!) keeping it at the wrong time, from 6pm to 6pm! So some of the time they actually kept the first day of the week holy! But wait, if you have to guard the edge of the Sabbath after sunset Saturday--then you are actually keeping the first day of the week holy and you get the mark of the beast!! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 30, 2005) | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2005 |
These more relaxed churches don't emphasize checklists of things one can or can't do, but rather focus on relationship with God as most important. It is this desire for relationship that directs them to keep the those customs ascribed by God, but relationship comes with a price. Sabbath observance represents our desire to want relationship with God. They believe God has set aside that special day since creation week to build relationships with man. Therefore, if one doesn't observe Sabbath on a weekly basis, then he or she discarding wanting a relationship. It is nice to see so many smiles greeting visitors, but after they join the church and choose relationship, Sabbath becomes a commitment test in the relationship. Unless your Sabbath observance is contiual those smiles turn into frowns. Befriending the Sabbath is the quickest way to be ignored by the church. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 850 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Pigeonite to FAF! You are right about liberal SDAs. They don't really keep the Sabbath anyway. Most of them do what they please. The Sabbath is only a symbol to their social club. As others have said, liberal Adventism is an oxymoron. If it's the liberal Adventism of Loma Linda you are talking about, well, they have Sabbath School teachers such as Richard Rice who literally don't believe in any of the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. They will look at you funny if you mention terms like being born abain, because they believe everyone is already saved, and they don't believe in the new birth. They scorn the idea of a blood sacrifice as being an actual substitutionary sacrifice. They don't believe in any type of hell, even a finite period of time. In their system, Hitler gets off scot free. In San Diego, Gary Mc Cary teaches that Daniel didn't write the book of Daniel, and Abraham was never asked to sacrifice Isaac. They deny any idea of scripture as an authority. They have created a "god" in their own image, and it is not Biblical Christianity. I admire conservative SDAs much more, because they at least stand for something, albeit wrong. Stan | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 425 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jerry, I knew about the 6pm - 6pm original Sabbath doctrine, but this is the first I heard of founders keeping the first day! Do you have any links or references I could follow? | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2005 |
Stan, that news about the teachers at LLU Church is sobering indeed. I knew about weaaring jewelry and eating out on Sabbath after church, but not the radical departure from Scripture! Colleen, we too gathered up all the toys and put away any secular magazines. We tried to have "Sabbath toys." Now that's a fun thing, believe me! I remember as a kid watching the second hand on the clock, like an Olympian sprinter crouched, with my little friends peering in through the screen door in summer, hands cupping their faces, ready for when I would leap off the couch and go running out to play! Ahh...liberation! Years later it was manifested by waiting to be able to turn on the TV or leave for a date. It seems like another world now to recall life within the prison cell of legalism. Remember searching to find the Sunset record - that card printed up quarterly, I think it was. How could we tell if it was sundown NOW or if we had more minutes to wait? "Where IS that sunset record card?" "Find it QUICK!" Jess | ||
| Jeannette Registered user Username: Jeannette Post Number: 103 Registered: 3-2003 |
Do any of you know when the jews started going to the temple on the sabbath? When did the transition from day of rest to day of worship occur? I'm just wondering. Thanks Jeannette | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 988 Registered: 10-2004 |
Freeatlast, I meant that they kept part of the first day of the week, according to how they reckon it now--from sunset to sunset. In the winter, when the sun set earlier than 6pm, they would have been keeping a portion of the "first day" (after sunset Saturday). But maybe they would claim that only "Sunday-keeping" (midnight to midnight) would get you the mark of the beast?? But they certainly weren't keeping the "right day"! And of course, they all did keep Sunday as the Sabbath (including EGW) for a couple of years after EGW's first vision even--until she became convinced of the "Sabbath truth"! Jeremy | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 426 Registered: 5-2002 |
I remember the heated discussion my family had surrounding whether it would be breaking the Sabbath to videotape the Georgetown-USC game during the second round of March Madness. My cousin was an assistant coach for the Trojans, and the game was scheduled for Saturday afternoon. Programmable VCR technology had just come to the market giving us the capability to "capture" secular moments for after-Sabbath viewing. The decision was made that, since there was nothing "official" from the GC, local conference, or local church giving guidance on the matter, it would be best not to tinker with the mark of the beast. We were aware that the game probably would still have some time left on the clock after Sabbath hours, so we elected to wait it out and watch the end of the game on live TV after Sabbath. We sat around watching the clock, just like Jess mentioned, and quickly turned on the TV as soon as the church bulletin's published sunset time arrived (guess the edges weren't so important that day, eh?). Anyway, we ended up tuning in with like two minutes left in the game, and Patrick Ewing had already led Georgetown to a massacre of SC. The score was like 109 - 65 when we started watching. We never did get to see my cousin on TV. sad, Sad, SAD! | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 76 Registered: 1-2005 |
This thread has me grinning - as I am reminded of all the sabbath gymnastics that have been played in our SDA experiences! The day I returned from being a student missionary in Micronesia - I left the island on a Sabbath evening and when I got to the states, it was Sabbath morning - again! I was still an SDA then but thought it pretty funny that I had two Sabbaths in a row! I was wondering how someone would rationalize that. Was I doubly blessed or cursed?? It's all too crazy. Thank goodness I don't have to worry about that anymore! There is such peace in resting in Jesus each and every day, isn't there?!! | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2004 |
Linylou, When were you on Mironesia? My brother in law was on Majuro in 1979-80 | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 82 Registered: 1-2005 |
Schasc, I was travelling through Majuro on my way to Pohnpei in August of 80. Spent the 80-81 year there. So we just missed each other! | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 56 Registered: 12-2004 |
As I read these posts I feel like its deja vu all over again. Growing up in Canada during the winter we had "Hockey Night in Canada" on TV at 5 pm Saturday night. As winter turned to spring and the playoffs approached, it would get later and later before we could turn the TV on. We would sit in the livingroom just waiting. I have to laugh, but that was still my reality up until a year ago.What an absolute paradigm shift I have been through. The sad thing is I spent the first 45 years of my life majoring in minors, and worrying about things that didn't matter and were morally neutral. Thank God the bondage of legalism is beening released and its not to late for me to share this with my children (and parents). Most of them do wonder however when I will shake this midlife crisis. In the recovery mode, Randy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 990 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hehe, I suppose it's time for me to relate a "Sabbath irony" story. I remember when my family packed for an overnight trip and loaded up the car and drove from Phoenix to the Grand Canyon, on a Saturday (I'm not sure when the packing was done, but it might have been on Saturday). All of that "work" on "Sabbath"! But then when we got to the Grand Canyon we had to wait until sunset to pay the admission fee to get in. Not only that, but we couldn't even go in at sunset because we had to "guard the edges" of the Sabbath--so we had to wait awhile longer after sunset even! Needless to say, we didn't get to see much of the Grand Canyon, until Sunday morning! Jeremy |
