| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2613 Registered: 12-2003  |
I just have to share this. Every fall, Trinity Church hosts a sacred dance concert. Worship dance troups from churches as far away as Los Angeles apply and come to Trinity to participate in the program. The local Celebration Church (Adventist) always participates by sending their dance company--which is quite good. Richard designs the printed program for the concert each year, and the production/organization of the concert is organized by a Trinity member who is a former Adventist who has been out nearly 15 years. Today said coordinator called Richard with program details, and she told Richard that the Celebration dance group has changed its name. Now I ask you, what name could an Adventist dance troupe call itself that would always inform other Adventists of their identity but would not necessarily let other Christians know? Give up? Well, here it is: Steps to Christ! It's a clever name for a dance company...and it's also quite revealing. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1941 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, That is really super-duper far-out. It's a good play with words, the meaning that most folks would apply to it and then the alternet meaning within the bonds of Adventism. However, I grew up in the days that even the most clean-cut movement to music was considered to be of satanic influence. The groun-ups at most would tap their toes or their fingers to the rythum/beat of the music but any more than that was considered sin. Have any of you read the Pat Darnell story? You can access it on Janet Brown's website. Pat was a little girl taking ballet lessons. Then her mom converted to SDA and she wasn't allowed to move to the music any more. At the Lutheran church I attend several folks do prayer dancing. When the congreation sings the Our Father there is a lot of movement with a very prayful componant to it. It is very reverant. I love the prayer dancing. i think with a SDA church being involved in prayer dancing just shows how many individual SDA people as well as individual SDA churches deviate from the official church doctrine. I know I could get out the fundamental 27 or the baptismal vows form and show anyone right there that it is against SDA doctrine to dance. I have brought this up to numereous SDA loved ones. They will tell me every time that the SDA doctrine on dancing means to use good judgement, to stay out of sleezy dives, etc. I just tell them the official doctrine does not say what they say and that any practicing Christian who uses Jesus and the Bible as a guide will use good sense and stay out of sin dens so their explaination just don't cut water with me. Thanks for sharing that. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 300 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, don't jump to premature conclusions.  I'm not even sure if the person who is in charge of the dance ministry is an SDA. There is dual membership there and many members of Celebration are not on the denominational roster. Every once in awhile I'm surprised to find out a person is or is not a member of the "church". I realize the play on words but it might not be as revealing as you think?? This past weekend we had a great time with praise/prayer dancing and worship flags. The use can be so beautiful and reverent. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 191 Registered: 2-2005 |
Richard, I know this is probably an elementary question, but what are worship flags? I "googled" them and found sites where they were for sale so I have an idea what they look like, but what exactly is done with them? Just curious, Heretic | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 202 Registered: 6-2001  |
When I was in college I attended for awhile a very ... hmmmm ... expressive church that had worship flags (although I never knew they were used in any other church or even that they had a name!) People, usually people near the front, would wave them during the singing at the most heartfelt point during a song, at the point when you would see a lot of hands being raised at other churches. The church also had a rams horn that someone would blow occasionally, and people would sometimes dance to the music in the front or in the back. The oddest form of expression, was what my husband and I called "the sword row." Now it seems so odd, but back then we were used to it. A row of people had these wooden swords and they would thump them on the floor! The church even had this special platform thingy for them to thump on, presumably not to damage the carpet. (this is my experimental phase in my life, ha!) There was a little speaking in tongues, but not formally. They would have a time when music played and people could pray out loud or quietly all at once, and that is when you heard it, if you were listening for it. I honestly don't remember much about the church, since it was quite awhile ago and I didn't attend very long. But I remember the whole church was sweet and welcoming. Unforgettably, Hannah | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 302 Registered: 1-2003 |
Heretic <smile> the question is understandable. Sometimes they are combined with praise dancing. Sometimes for those who are "dance challenged" like me we just move and wave them with the praise music and lose ourselves in prayer and worship. This last summer I had a wonderful experience going down by the Eel River in the redwoods here in CA. A group of us when down at dawn and worshiped with music and the flags as the sun came up over the river. They should never be used as a performance to show off "talent" but used as an act of worship. If your interested I'll send you a VERY short video clip showing something from this past weekend. I'll see how long the file is. Let me know. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hello everyone! I have not posted anything for long while, but I have been reading all the posts in the forum! The Adventist Have a DANCE Troop??? Boy, have I been out of the SDA Loop for a long time! I had no idea! I wonder how a church the considers itself the "true" church can be so ever evolving with the times? Whats going to change next?? --Valerie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2622 Registered: 12-2003 |
Valerie, it's so good to see you again! Glad to know you've been around. How are things going for you? The dance troupe is at a local Adventist church, Celebration Center. It has always been "on the edge" as far as traditional Adventism is concerned. Not all SDA churches have praise dance teams! Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 304 Registered: 1-2003 |
Valerie, the dance troop that is referred to is a group that does praise dance during worship time at church to bring glory to God. It is not provocative in any way, except maybe provocative in eliciting a sense of awe as we worship God. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 305 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have a question of everyone posting here. Why can't there be a sense of thanksgiving when we see evidence of some in the SDA church drawing closer to God in a personal relationship and not bound up in the traditions of man. God works in mysterious ways His wonders to behold. I wish everyone would stop being blind to this and getting stuck on the "how can they be an Adventist?" I don't agree with all the changes I see happening in the Adventist or any other church, but I do believe in lifting all God's children up in prayer and giving thanks as I see His work manifesting in their lives. No one makes all the changes at once that some might feel should be made to match the expected level of "rightness". Please rejoice in what you see happening and be carefull about calling into question every motive. I don't know about others here but I can not know the motivation of what I read others doing with great confidence. (I include in this my inability to know the motivation of those who post here. This is not ment to reference any person or particular post!! except possible mine.  ) Please lift up in prayer those who are changing and thank God for what he is doing. We are ALL on a journey. Some of us are on one part of the highway and some on another. We need to be careful that when we think we are further along on the "road" we are not in fact far behind. I know that God continually reveals to me His will in my life as i move from "glory to glory" 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. I realize in a very small way how much more He has for me to enjoy as His new born son. I am so blessed to know each of you here and learn from you as I see God working in each of your lives. THANKS be to God. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 134 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree with you Richard. On the otherhand, though, I spent many years within the SDA Church watching each little change and hoping it meant that the "church" was indeed changing. But after many hopeful years, I came to the conclusion, that while many individuals within SDAism are changing, the SDA organization as a whole IS NOT. I wish I could have made significant changes to the organization by staying and fighting for that from within. But I found it too exhausting and depressing. So I have very mixed feelings when I see changes touted as evidence that the SDA Church is really changing. I am somewhat hopeful - God can accomplish anything! But my reality is that nothing is really changing from within, so I am angry at the denomination for allowing that hope when it has no intention of changing. In the end, I can only pray that each individual will find rest in Jesus, not in any denomination. Just venting! -tisha | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1944 Registered: 11-2002 |
Richard, I am speeking for only myself in answering your question about how come we can't be happy about the positive changes within Adventism. In my opinion the positive changes are individual or even cooperate at the local church level. The official SDA stance from the General Conference is non-progressive. In fact, from reading the Review and other official SDA General Conference literature, the Sabbath School lesson booklets, etc., the SDA church is just the opposite of progressive, it is actually regressive. So, even I can be happy that individuals within the bonds of Adventism are finding more peace in the arms of Jesus, at the same time I don't see any of the good things happening within SDA'ism coming from the top down. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2624 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tisha, you have expressed my feelings perfectly. I did not mean to offend you, Richard. I'll explain my comment about the dance troup's nameóSteps to Christómore completely. First, it is a very clever name for a worship dance team. If there were no EGW overtones, it would be quite descriptive. Second, it is not at all surprising to me that people who have never been SDA would like the name and wish to use it, especially in a setting such as Celebration Center. The dual-track membership which you mention (which, by the way, is not unique; other churches also have it. The Glendale City Church had a dual-track membership which embraced members who did not become Adventist as early as the mid-80's) would make it even more appealing to the non-SDAs there since the name offers the double significance of the allusion to their Adventist team members' heritage. Thirdóand this is where I believe the rubber meets the roadóno one could use the name if they believed Ellen was a false prophet. It would be very easy to see the connections in the name and use it if one merely thought of Ellen as "not a prophet", but if one understood how deeply she opposed the gospel, the Scriptures, and how much she misrepresented Jesus Himself, I don't believe anyone could willingly use that name. If they did understand, it would be like a Christian group using a name like "The Pearl of Great Price", or "The Quran". They would be unwilling to claim association with what they believed was false. I absolutely know that many people at Celebration Center are not truly Adventist, even those in the SDA-track membership. I know many are searching and desiring to know Jesus more intimately. God is drawing them to Himself, and no matter how long it takes, if their hearts truly desire to embrace truth and not merely their idea of truth, God will continue to teach them and grow them in Him. He will not leave them in a confused or "partially-there" state. It may take even years, but He will persist. Here's what I find significant about that name, Steps to Christ: whatever the individual dancers' personal realtiosnhips with Jesus might be, Celebration Center itself, by virtue of the silent agreement on the part of the pastors and elders, is publicly endorsing its Adventism and its continuing inclusion of Ellen as part of its heritage. No matter how "untraditional" its theology might be, no matter how charismatic it might be, no matter how inclusive it might be, it is publicly acknowledging itself as an Adventist church. Whether that acknowledgement is for the sake of conviction, whether it is for the sake of the Southeastern Conference, whether it is because of the staff's inclusive view of what's acceptable in doctrine or practice, or whether it's simply indicative of pastoral weakness, I don't know. I only know that the name gives a message, and it is not an accidental message. While it might have been "accidental" or suppressed on the part of the dance team, the pastoral staff recognizes it. Celebration's public presentation as liberated from traditional Adventism and inclusive and welcoming of all Christians, of embracing charismatic worship and other worship styles that stand in direct contrast to traditional Adventism is, it seems, merely an attempt to appear to break free. Bottom line--they're not willing to go all the way and break from the denomination. Perhaps their particular theolgoy sees no need to clearly exclude Ellen as a false prophet. Whatever the case, they are Adventist no matter how they re-interpret the traditional doctrines and the membership. I guess I would rather that they unabashedly admit they want their Adventist connections instead of presenting the facade of being somehow past all that. I'm not making statements about the individual members. Again, I believe the leadership of the church holds great responsibility for how the church is represented. The church's public identity confusion misleads many people looking on. Again, God is at work in all our hearts, and He is drawing people to Himself there as well as everywhere. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 306 Registered: 1-2003 |
Please look back at what I said. I did NOT say anything about there being evidence of the church as a denomination changing. I spoke only about what God is doing in the individual lives of His sons and daughters. I'm frustrated ! ! ! ! and want to scream out, WHY is 95% of our conversation about a church and only 5% about HIS precious sons and daughter. Before someone corrects I'm sure my percentages are not accurate. I don't care about the church structure but i desperately care about His children. If I can be there to nurture and "spiritually hold" those who walk through the doors of my church i have done what God has called me to do. I fall down desperately in this but this is what God calls me to do. I'm not a theologian but hopefully I am a seeker after God and a worshiper who seeks His face. A friend of mine received an email about the dance team and it's name. (I didn't send it to her) She responded to the person who sent her the email. I just got off the phone with her and was given permission to reprint her entire response but have chosen to only make public a small part of it which deals with the dance team itself. The person who wrote these comments is no longer an Adventist but loves Christ deeply. <<Her quote>> Let me tell you about the dance team. One of the members who is 41 years old and was married to an abusive man who when to jail for drugs and stealing. She was also on drugs. She was raised in a Catholic church and was befriended by a neighbor who brought her to Celebration when she was so strung out on drugs that she couldn't even speak coherently. She and her husband were eventually divorced. The people at CC loved her into sobriety never once treating her as "less than" because of her life. She prays like an angel and has found the love of God she has needed to give her purpose and meaning. The best way she can express her worship is thru dance which she did growing up. She has recently remarried and finds herself pregnant at 41 through no negligence on her part and has decided to keep the baby instead of getting an abortion like her family is urging. She is not an Adventist. She will be dancing pregnant. Another had an overbearing father when she was growing up who died in front of her eyes. She also got into drugs and was brought to church where she had an affair with a young kid in on the worship team and became pregnant. She was on drugs during pregnancy and bore a child who had a heart defect and had to have a heart transplant before she was one year old. And the people at CC camped outside the hospital ward praying for that baby to survive and she has. The mother (dancer) has gotten up and fallen down (drugs, affairs) many times, but for the last three years has been able to stand because the people at church accept her with her weakness and stand beside her no matter what to help her to stand back up again and again. She has an Adventist mother and I would guess she was, at some point, baptized and is on the SDA books. But no one could be much less "Adventist" than she. When she dances she brings the presence of God into the room because she knows what it is to be forgiven and redeemed. And she has seen the eyes of forgiveness in the faces of the people at CC. Another has a family where mother weighs over 300 pounds. She has decided to break out of that mold and turned around her own ascent to the 300's and has lost down to near-normal weight. And to celebrate that she can, she has joined the dance team. A true victory. Another came to church with a friend who goes to CC. She has gotten the idea that her response to the Holy Spirit was to loudly proclaim "Ho" as a confirmation that speakers and statements were right on. It's sort of annoying and disruptive. But the church is choosing to bring some maturity by drawing her in instead of castigating her. The dance team was one of the groups who embraced and befriend her. Another is married to a man who was a "cook" (not only did and sold drugs but also made them in a drug lab at home.) He has been absolutely redeemed and when he prays I weep. She is rather introverted and shy but has learned that she can praise God with abandon thru dance. As I have watched her my spirit is caught up into heavenly places. They both know the power of God in ways that you and I will never experience. These are the ones who chose the name of the dance group. We have never even heard the name it at CC and probably the pastor doesn't know what they have chosen to call themselves. There is certainly no conspiracy to have a secret code announcing themselves as Adventists to insiders. <<end of quote>> Friends this is why I'm so passionate about touching the lives of those around me. This is why I'm impatient at times with what I hear others saying. Let's lift HIM up in the little things of life. God can defend Himself theologically much better than I ever can. I ask am I allowing myself to be His hands as I touch the lives of those around me. The answer for me sadly, is not as much as I should be. This is why I need a vacation from the discussions here to keep the main thing the main thing. I'm feeling to involved and it is affecting the time I have with my Savior and the time I have to quietly touch the lives of others. I'll be back after awhile. If you feel like it I hope you will send me email and let me know how things are going. Bless you all. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1950 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Heretic, Until reading this columm I'd never heard of worship flags either. There's always so much to learn! When we make the sign of the cross the priest refers to that as a dance in God's glory. I always liked that. Even though I have nearly no sense of rythum I can still dance to God's glory by making the sign of the cross in a prayful manner. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 983 Registered: 10-2004  |
Richard, I found it disturbing that in that quote you posted, there was no mention of Jesus Christ. I don't consider the fact that somebody weighs less pounds than her mother to be a "true victory" of eternal significance! What is important is, have these individuals' spirits been born again? But then, Celebration Center teaches that they are "already saved" and therefore, being born again is not necessary! I don't see how anyone can call this Evangelical Christianity. Colleen, I agree with your post. No matter what the circumstances were in the choosing of the name--the fact is that the name honors a false prophet! We are talking about a church whose web site declares that it is SDA and a dance group from that church with the same name as one of the most popular books by SDAism's false prophet!! This is inexcusable. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 28, 2005) | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 193 Registered: 2-2005 |
Richard, I'm not sure if you'll see this in the near future but I am interested in seeing the clip you speak of. I sent an email to your linked address but haven't heard back from you so I'm not sure you got it. If you haven't received it, please ask Colleen for my email address. Thanks. Heretic | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1952 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeremy, Were you ever an Adventist minister? I'm courious. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard, and others, I hear what Richard is saying and I appreciate the reminder to be gentle with those still in the SDA Church. While I do believe there are those within the SDA Church that do know Jesus and understand what Grace has done for us, I don't believe they can honestly stay in the SDA Church and know fully the joy that an assurance of Salvation - through GRACE ALONE - can bring. At some point they would have to realize that the teachings of the SDA Church are contrary to that. I am thankful that Jesus can reach out to all of us, even SDAs ;o), just where we are. I have no animosity towards the individuals within the SDA Church, even though they may be misguided and believe they are doing the right thing. I just see a lack of fully trusting in Jesus for Salvation. Instead they rely of their own works - whether they understand that or not. This is not to find fault - I was there myself! My anger is directed toward the denominational leaders that are knowingly covering up the truth about the origins of the SDA beliefs, and giving false hope that the SDA Church is changing, when if fact there is NO intention of changing. Even churches that have the Celebration style of SDA services are really only covering up the truth of the SDA beliefs. It makes them appear Evangelical and more mainstream when in reality they still are a cult. It is like a sheep in wolf's clothing. I admire those who are trying to make a difference from within, but I believe that even they may not be honest about what they believe. I have to say that I have more respect for those solid EGW folks that uphold their belief (even though I know they are wrong) than I do for those who pick and choose what to follow according to what seems comfortable in the moment. I don't believe these people are willing to either fully embrace their SDA religion by upholding all of it or else discarding it and admitting their error, and then moving into a true Sabbath Rest with Jesus alone. I don't believe one can have it both ways. As long as one is a member of the SDA Church there is the implicit acceptance of EGW and all the SDA beliefs, whether one admits so or not. I know there is a growing process and some within the SDA Church are learning and will eventually move out. I cannot judge anyone's path. I just want there to be honesty by the SDA denomination so it is clear just what path a person is choosing. As a former SDA, I have no other place than here to vent my frustrations. I try not to tear down another's faith. But I will gently point to the errors of the SDA Church when asked. Here on this forum is the one place where I can be honest about these feelings. I don't come here only for venting, as I have grown and learned so much through the discussion on this forum. I want to learn about all the new ways of seeing now that I am out of the bondage of the SDA Church. I enjoy all the theological discussions here. And I am encouraged by the faith I "see" here. It truely is a caring a praying group. And the best part is that there are various opinions and no one is saying they have a corner on the truth! We all take the Bible as our only source of truth. We agree that while we may disagree on some things, we do agree on the only Salvational thing - that of the Grace of Jesus death on the cross for our sins. There are so many mysteries waiting to unfold. I hope I have not offended anyone here. I just don't want this to be a place where I have to censor what I say just to protect a system that I believe is a cult and I no longer belong to. While I don't want to be continually negative, I do want to be able to talk about the ah-ha's I find as I realize more and more how deceived I was. This is one way I can grow - I can look back and see how far I've come, by the Grace of God! -tisha | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2005 |
Amen Tisha and well said. I agree with you on being more gentle...I have experienced God's beauty on this board, and though I would like to say I am ever eloquent, I know that I am not. But that does not change my view point. I too need this place to vent, as a person I love dearly is "working from within" as he states and is not too sure of his salvation. BALONEY!!! I want to see him and others FREE! And often we have to simply stand alone. I can be me here...with all my thoughts and frustrations...and praise God my life isn't a ruined mess that I thought it would be. I hope you read these words Richard. Love is the main thing...and that love is not always easy or smooth...and Christ did not come to bring peace, but a sword...so this struggle will always be within you until He is allowed to have that which you fight to defend. Be blessed dear one and visit us as you are led. Have a good noght all... Shontay |
